Where are we at ?

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Dear Forum Members,

I read your posts with great interest almost every day. In a very short time I have come to know some of you by your writing, and what you have to say enlightens me in many ways. I think that we really have a true community of sorts, so what I am about to write should not be considered an ad hominem attack on anyone, nor am I a racist but I am a culturalist which I define as being one who places great value on the traditional cultural and educational values associated with Western Civilization or what my friends in Cambridge and elsewhere might refer to as Euro-Centric. This does not mean that I haven't lived in non-western cultures because I have, and at one time or another I did upper-division or graduate work in the history of China, Southeast Asia, the Middle East, and India at several universities (including the famous one on the Charles River in Cambridge, but only as an Extension Student). I understand that we live in a global economy, and that in the context of the world at large, persons of Euro-American descent are a definite minority. My immediate family is multi-racial reflecting Malayasian ethnicity and my extended family includes African-American members. In terms of religion, members of my immediate family are: Episcopalians, Congregationalists, Agnostics, Athiests and Evangelical Christians and one non-practicing Jew. So I celebrate diversity anytime the family gets together. I have lived in Alaska, Arizona, California (2X), Colorado (3X), Georgia, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Ohio, and Texas.

So despite all of this diversity or perhaps because of it, I firmly believe that to survive as a viable nation-state we must have a certain degree of consensus. It is imperative that we have a few common values and a shared sense of national identity and history to survive.

Fifty years ago we had this to a much larger degree than we do today. Somewhere in our quest for personal freedom from virtually everything, we seem to want to destroy those very cultural icons which in the past have been cornerstones for our culture.

I note with great interest the thread on Blue Laws, for example. Well, fifty years ago, people thought it was okay for stores not to be open on Sunday or Thanksgiving or Christmas...Why ? Because there was a consensus that Sundays were for worship and rest, and Thanksgiving and Christmas were holidays. Now...before you raise the ugly word religion, I would point out that both Jews and Seventh Day Adventists observe their Sabbath on Saturday, and no one prevented them from observing their Sabbath on those days, but these minorities were accomodated, but it was still the consensus of the majority that Sunday was the day of rest and worship. Funny thing, most states especially those, in the Northeast, Mid-West, and South had blue laws, and there was cultural consensus that that was okay, you see in those days people practiced freedom of religion, whereas today we practice freedom from religion. As a result of this, I think all religious groups today, have become more militant or strident in pushing their agenda.

Our immigration laws prior to 1965 reflected quotas that were strongly European. Regretably, there was a racist dynamic to this, but at the same time, but encouraging immigration from European countries, our nation was ensuring cultural consensus, and at the same time allowed non-Europeans to come to our shores as well. The problem with many of the new immigrants is that they choose not to assimilate. Now certain sociologists point out that they cannot assimliate due to cultural predjudices towards them, but it would appear that some non-European groups are assimliating and availing themselves of the educational and economic opportunities that this country does offer.

Racism. continues to be the major blight on the American cultural landscape, yet how many people are chastised by their own ethnic or racial group when they seek to assimilate mainstream values and are accused of talking or acting "white"? I do not profess to have an answer to this problem, but the continued Balkanization of America will create a volatile situation.

A lot of people like to knock Massachusetts. I live here by choice. Yeah, the gun laws suck, but guns are not my whole life. In fact when I moved here, and got my first non-resident gun license, this was the first time in my life that I could carry a concealed weapon. Arizona didn't have concealed carry permits back then, or Texas. We have some of the greatest cultural institutions in the world, some of the best sports teams, some of the finest medical facilities, and like it or not some of the best colleges and universities. If you want it to be like Omaha, or Little Rock, or Boise or wherever, then go to those places and live. In many ways New England was the last region to be naitonalized by chain stores and restaurants, and for much of the history of this country led the nation in many areas. I mourn the passing of Jordan Marsh, Filene's, Howard Johnson's, Lechemere, and so many other commerical endeavors that were local and regional. I live in Leominster, a city with landmark Italian restaurants, yet an Olive Garden is scheduled to open here. I'm not saying that an Olive Garden is bad, it just isn't needed and it won't be as good as what I can get locally. But no doubt, the public will flock there.

The clock will not turn back and with approximately 2/3rds of my life lived, I know that change is inevitable...but is all change good ? We used to have the best telephone system in the world, until it was deregulated, now it is as good as everyone else's, same could be said for air travel and now utility companies.

I don't profess to have answers. I hope that somewhere along the line we can strike a balance between respecting the rights of individuals and at the same time respect the consensus of the many. Can we be a society of individuals or is that a contradiction of terms ? It is a brave new world that we are living in, and for me, interesting times in which to live.

caveat lector,

Mark
 
Mark,

A most interesting post. However it belongs in "Off Topic" as it really has nothing to do with guns. I am thus moving it to "Off Topic" and leaving a pointer to it here.
 
A Very interesting post.

I find myself sitting on both sides of the fence.

First I feel troubled by the lack of Melting done in this Melting Pot of Ours. The English Language is slowly being pushed out by other toungs. I also find that Euro-Centricitys popping up, from laws being proposed because they're counterpart laws in Europe (Wether they work or not) or fashion, or simple pop culture (A friend of mine was told that his flip phone was not at all popular in Europe....and that person thought that had the least bit of relevence).

In Cellular Biology "Ceullular Death" can be discribed by a cell that cannot identify inside vs. outside. There is a "Killer Cell" that helps protect us from infection that simply places a protean "Port Hole" in the side of a hostile cell. Without being able to regulate it's inside environment the cell dies.

Still if we are that Cell trying to stay alive we need to REGULATE our environment. Leading to your comment on the Blue Laws. I don't feel like voicing my opinions on them in this post, but I will say that our laws and out culture MUST change with our people.

Sure 50 years nobody had a problem with Blue Laws, but to say that the people were fine with it then does NOT mean we're fine with it now, and the people should be able to voice what should and shouldn't be changed.

I think some general "Melting" would help all of us. The less cultural devides that occor in this very LARGE country (espeshally when you compare it with Europe) the more comphortable we'll all be.

Like languange: I speak two Languanges English, and Bad English (Thank you Luc Besson 8) ) but I'm meeting more and more people who speak NO English. Now if most people I know only speak Spanish, I wouldn't have ANY problem learning (Besides just the difficultys of learning a new Language) so goes the world. The Problem I have with American non-Melting Culture now, is the urge to include ALL! There are lots of People who speak Spanish in this country, but how about obsucre cultures and languages?

What about Religions? I'm finding more and more references to religions of wich I know ZERO members of, and more and more Christiantiy being pushed OUT of our culture. Mind you I'm not Christian, so the Nativity in my Neighborhood held little spiritual value to me....but it did hold a LOT of cultural value. I KNOW I'm in the minority with Christians, and Jews of this country, and I need to respect that. If the Nativity Scene was gone, I wouldn't loose any sleep, but I know MANY people who would, so I'm glad to see it there.

I see our country simply adding another language to my ATM, rather than pressure a person who speaks an obscure Aztec Dialect to "Melt" a little. Or seing some spirtual ceremony in a public square that I have NO idea what it's about...while my Christian and Jewish friends conduct thier own worship behind closed doors.

It's only starting now, but I'm a bit worried.

Well I feel that I'm rambling now, but those are my thoughts on this!

-Weer'd Beard
 
Phones

The clock will not turn back and with approximately 2/3rds of my life lived, I know that change is inevitable...but is all change good ? We used to have the best telephone system in the world, until it was deregulated, now it is as good as everyone else's, same could be said for air travel and now utility companies.

Although we had the "best", the prices for phone communications were exteremely high, and deregulation and competition has made it affordable. Before you conclude that "technology" is what did this, I suggest you check the current long distance rates in some of the nations where the phone service is still regulated or run by the national postal service.

The airlines may be in finacial trouble, but prices are competitive. Sure, we don't get the sort of freebies we used to in an environment when the vendor was protected from the competitive market place, but that's just a result of the public prefering Walmart prices and service to Nordstrom style pricing and service in the airline business.

I can call more for less and travel more for less than I could in the past, and I haven't had trouble getting either a working phone connection of airline ticket when I need one. I call this progress.
 
Re: Phones

Rob Boudrie said:
We used to have the best telephone system in the world, until it was deregulated, now it is as good as everyone else's, same could be said for air travel and now utility companies.

Although we had the "best", the prices for phone communications were exteremely high, and deregulation and competition has made it affordable.

I can call more for less and travel more for less than I could in the past, and I haven't had trouble getting either a working phone connection of airline ticket when I need one.

Speaking as a telecom tech, and one who's done a little traveling and who's also had to deal with telecom companies in other companies, I will disagree with one small part of your post, Mark.

We have one of the BEST telephone systems in the world. When was the last time you picked up your phone and didn't get a dial tone? When did you last have to give up trying to place a call because it just wouldn't go through?

Current TDM ("standard" telephony as opposed to VOIP) systems usually have a 99.999% reliability rating. That means that there's less than 50 minutes a YEAR of downtime. While I don't work on central office equipment, some of the PBX's I work on haven't even been rebooted in years... and the ones that have been rebooted wouldn't have been if they weren't being upgraded. Deregulation really hasn't affected quality... but it has affected all the red tape that we have to wade through to get that good service. :(

One thing that HAS affected service has been the aging of the outside wiring plant... I've had sites that did have poor service, but those problems were due to antique wiring. (the Dedham Filene's Basement springs to mind...) But from what I remember about overseas trips when I wanted to make a phone call... I'll take our service any day.
 
mark056 said:
If you want it to be like Omaha, or Little Rock, or Boise or wherever, then go to those places and live.

While that's easy to say, it's not so easy to do. While there are many things that I hate about MA, there are several things that I do like.

But it's not just as easy as moving because you don't like that you can't go get stuffing at Stop and Shop on Thanksgiving.

People have lives, children and jobs that doesn't make it as easy to leave. I would move back to the south in a heart beat. But I have a wife with a family that lives here. I have children to think about. I have a good job...as does my wife.

I move, and I don't have a job, and it's not as easy as finding another one. There just aren't as many jobs as people would like to think that there are. And my wife would never make the money she does here anywhere else.

So, while I think that some of the laws here suck. And that the cost of living is complete out of control. I just can't pick up and move...as is with most of the people in this state.

As for the USA being a melting pot over the rest of the world. I think that we're a lot more lenient here that other countries would be if this was going on there.

We're pretty good. In most countries, even in Europe, if you don't speak the language, then you're out of luck.
 
I think our society today tries too hard to make every group feel that America can be just like the country they came from.

I feel by doing this we are losing the America that your founders wanted. I think they wanted a country where everybody can do what they want, within the law.

I get a little P.O. when I hear about people trying to block a Christmas tree from getting put up on city property. Or people trying to get the word "God" taken out of everything. I believe that unless something is "Prohibiting" you from freedom, you should just worry about yourself.
 
I have to agree with Derek. We do try to cater to everyone,but you know what if it was reversed and you moved to another country,you would be expected to learn the language,etc.
I know this from living in germany,as long as I made an attempt in German to begin with, then they would speak english. I was at least showing that I was trying.
We need to make that stand here. We have always been the great melting pot,but by living here you need to speak the primary language of this country. Doesn't mean you have to give up your culture or your heritage.
 
Just to lighten up this thread a little, I'm going to post a joke that my Seabee cousin just sent me.

Two families moved from Afghanistan to America.

When they arrived, the two fathers made a bet -- in a year's time whichever family had become more Americanized would win.

A year later they met. The first man said, "My son is playing baseball, I had McDonald's for breakfast and I'm on my way to pick up a case of Bud, how about you?"

The second man replied, "f*** you, towel head."
 
derek said:
I think our society today tries too hard to make every group feel that America can be just like the country they came from.

I feel by doing this we are losing the America that your founders wanted. I think they wanted a country where everybody can do what they want, within the law.

I get a little P.O. when I hear about people trying to block a Christmas tree from getting put up on city property. Or people trying to get the word "God" taken out of everything. I believe that unless something is "Prohibiting" you from freedom, you should just worry about yourself.

Derek, I love you (but that's just between us [wink] ). I agree. And, although I fully support anyone moving to this country LEGALLY their right to uphold their traditions, this IS America - don't expect me to learn YOUR language.

If everyone's nose gets put out of joint because there's a Christmas tree on the city common, then feel free to ad a Minora (Ross, did I spell that right?), and whatever they use to decorate for Qwanza and Ramadan, or whatever the hell it is. I do not fall in to any of those religious categories, (although I will say the the Christmas tree has Pagan roots - that's our Yule log.), however none of those holiday symbols bother me.

If you're in the category of not celebrating anything, that's fine too. Just realize you're in the miniscule minority. It's only once a year so deal with it. Besides, all those decorated houses make the otherwise desolate landscape look pretty good.
 
Lynne said:
If everyone's nose gets put out of joint because there's a Christmas tree on the city common, then feel free to ad a Minora (Ross, did I spell that right?), and whatever they use to decorate for Qwanza and Ramadan, or whatever the hell it is.

Yes, houses & trees decorated with Christmas lights are very pretty. And Kathy & I drive around on Christmas looking at them.

But [deep breath] towns and the state have no business putting up a Christmas tree, Menorah or any other holiday decoration. To me, the government spending money for holiday decorations is as good as saying "your tax dollars are sponsoring Christmas/Chanukah/Kwanzaa". Which would seem to me to be against the first amendment.

That said [and hopefully y'all are still reading and not reaching for the flamethrowers], I have absolutely NOTHING against a church/temple/mosque putting up holiday decorations on public property. That's what public property is for - the use of the citizens. But the decorations should be paid for by those who are willing to put it up. I don't expect you, Lynne, to foot the bill for a Menorah put up by the city of Haverhill, and I shouldn't have to foot the bill for a Christmas tree for the city of Marlboro.

Ross
 
I don't know about you Ross, but we have a group called DANA. Downtown Associates of North Attleborough. They raise money for our parade and decorating the town with Christmas Decorations. It's a group of Businesses and the like.

And they take donations from the public as well. As well as holding bake sales, and fund raisers all year long.

Do you know the song Silver Bells?

City sidewalks, busy sidewalks.
Dressed in holiday style..

Just giving you a hard time. I know that towns don't spruse up the town just because of a Christmas song.
 
I understand what you're saying Ross, and I don't have a problem with all the denominations paying their own way. I can see a major problem occuring in that case (i.e., the KKK wants to hang something up because everyone else is, or the local Satanic cult, etc.) However, that being said, I *DO* pay for Christmas decorations - all along the downtown section of Haverhill, they hang up Christmas balls, or wreaths, so.... What the hell, it looks nice.
 
C-pher said:
I don't know about you Ross, but we have a group called DANA. Downtown Associates of North Attleborough. They raise money for our parade and decorating the town with Christmas Decorations. It's a group of Businesses and the like.

And they take donations from the public as well. As well as holding bake sales, and fund raisers all year long.

Perfect; exactly what I was trying to get at.

Good for North Attleboro!
 
Have to agree with Ross. No need for the govt to pay for any sort of religious decorations. It's not their place, but if a private group wants to pick up the tab, I'm all for it.

I'm not Christian but I celebrate Christmas as a cultural holiday. My Christmas lights got put up last weekend and I'll be out buying presents just like the rest of you. I don't confirm or deny that Christmas is supposed to be Jesus' birthday, but it's become a consumer-driven holiday that anyone can celebrate by going into debt. hooray!
 
derek said:
I get a little P.O. when I hear about people trying to block a Christmas tree from getting put up on city property.

It really makes me laugh when they try to justify it as a "Religious Issue".

It may be religious, but Christmas Trees aren't Christian.

They're from old German Paganism.

Christmas is more about kids and concern for others, than a religious holiday these past 30 years.
 
After reading the post I want to chip my 2 cents in. I'm a firm beleiver that this nation truly started to fragment when we started to hyphenate. We no longer were able to identify as a nation as one, instead its X ethnicities who are currently living here.

To this day I refuse to use the word <Ethnic>-American. If they have a problem I just say 'Your an american citizen and to me thats what you are, american, not X."
 
Lynne said:
SiameseRat said:
Lynne said:
SiameseRat said:
but it's become a consumer-driven holiday that anyone can celebrate by going into debt. hooray!

Especially when the debt is caused by buying guns. [lol]

Gun debt doesn't count [lol] [lol] [lol]

I'll have to use that one on Ed. [lol]

Lynne, everyone knows that it's not debt, that it's an INVESTMENT! [twisted]

Some people buy stocks, I buy guns. hehehe Granted there's a good chance that I'll never sell a gun...unless it's to buy another gun.

God we need help...
 
Skald said:
After reading the post I want to chip my 2 cents in. I'm a firm beleiver that this nation truly started to fragment when we started to hyphenate. We no longer were able to identify as a nation as one, instead its X ethnicities who are currently living here.

To this day I refuse to use the word <Ethnic>-American. If they have a problem I just say 'Your an american citizen and to me thats what you are, american, not X."

I agree Skald. You're either an American, or you're not. And, if you're an American, then BLOODY WELL ACT LIKE IT. These people that talk about division in this country are the ones that are adding to it by being "<culture>-American". And I firmly believe that if Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson would shut the hell up, rascism, or the perception of it, would become nearly non-existant.
 
Lynne said:
And I firmly believe that if Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson would shut the hell up, rascism, or the perception of it, would become nearly non-existant.

Um. I may be putting my foot in my mouth here, but... I could never understand the whole prejudice thing, coming from a town that had a black population of 64 out of the 30,000 residents. I just simply didn't know anyone to be prejudiced against. When I went to high school, we had more blacks in class and I didn't think anything of it. When my mother asked me about it, I had to visualize each classsmate to think if they were black or not - It was simply a non-issue for me.

Then I started working security in Jersey City and Newark and I understood. Some of that could have been city folk vs suburb folks, but what I saw there really was an education.

And I think that's all I'll say on this topic.
 
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