When is lethal force justified?

[Bruce for NH State Rep]

Here's the scenario?

You go to answer the door in the middle of the afternoon only to have an intruder force his way into your home. You're armed. What do you do?

And, oh yeah, you're a Massachusetts resident.

The laws pertaining to self-defense can be confusing, even to the "experts".

As a public service, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts has created this handy survey for you to hand to your would-be assailant to assist you in determining what level of self-defense you would be legally allowed to pursue.

Massachusetts Self-Defense Situation Assessment Survey

 

[Nickle]

Yeah, that's about as accurate as it gets when discussing your options in Mass.

 

[KMaurer]

Don't forget to send a completed copy of the form by certified mail to your local PD, the PD in the city/town where the assailant resides, and the State Police within 10 days of regaining consciousness or of death, which ever comes first. In the event of death, the executor should complete the form and attach a certified copies of the death certificate and his/her official letter of appointment as executor to each copy.

Ken

 

[The Goose]

Lmfao!!!

 

[Nickle]

You know, I thought I'd never say I miss Texas. When I was there (77-79), if someone was trying to break in your door, the cops recommended shooting them before they get inside. No questions asked.

 

[hminsky]

It's funny because it's true.

 

[LoginName]

You know, I thought I'd never say I miss Texas. When I was there (77-79), if someone was trying to break in your door, the cops recommended shooting them before they get inside. No questions asked.

Police: "Care to explain what happened here, sir"?

Home owner: "Yeah, well I was just pulling up in my driveway and saw this creep running out the back door with my VCR so I shot him".

Police: "Why did you shoot him 15 times"?

Home owner: "I only had one mag".

Police: "I see. Well, here's your handgun and VCR back. Someone should be by tomorrow to pick-up the body and take your statement. You have a good night now, sir".

 

[MarkM]

That a good PDF!

My attitude is that (in NH ) if someone forced their way past me into my house (where my wife is, unarmed) I would reasonable believe that he/she:

(a) Is about to use unlawful, deadly force against me or my wife;
(b) Is likely to use any unlawful force against a person present while committing or attempting to commit a burglary;
(c) Is committing or about to commit kidnapping or a forcible sex offense; or
(d) Is likely to use any unlawful force in the commission of a felony against myself within my dwelling or its curtilage.

I'm sure you can guess what I would be within the law doing next.

 

[PatMcD]

We've had a rash of break-ins locally. Punks looking for stuff to pawn for drug money. I asked my State Cop neighbor what to do if I caught someone in the house when I come home from work.
He asks "You've usually got a gun handy, right?"
I says "yeah.."
He says "Dump him"
I say "Really??..."
He says "You've got to assume he's got a gun or has stolen one of yours. Believe me, the DA will play ball"

I don't know if that is legal advice I'm willing to risk my liberty on, but it's interesting to hear the local cop's view of things.

 

[Jeremiah]

"You've got to assume he's got a gun or has stolen one of yours. Believe me, the DA will play ball."

See? It's not hard. Why aren't the cops in Boston able to treat civilians like grown ups? Here's the basic idea: start with the assumption that the home owner is the good guy. Work from that assumption until the evidence proves otherwise. Sounds logical to me....

 

[CaveDog]

Sad, but funny PDF.

My attitude is that (in NH ) if someone forced their way past me into my house (where my wife is, unarmed) I would reasonable believe that he/she:

(a) Is about to use unlawful, deadly force against me or my wife;
(b) Is likely to use any unlawful force against a person present while committing or attempting to commit a burglary;
(c) Is committing or about to commit kidnapping or a forcible sex offense; or
(d) Is likely to use any unlawful force in the commission of a felony against myself within my dwelling or its curtilage.

I'm sure you can guess what I would be within the law doing next.

Sounds simple enough, but how can you reasonably assume the person is about to or is likely to do any of the above? If you used deadly force, you'd have to answer that question. Do you know the person isn't at the wrong house and thinks thier cheating spouse is inside? Maybe when they realized it was the wrong house they would have simply left?

Even in NH, a competent prosecutor will bring up such questions in front of a jury trying to make you look trigger happy.

 

[MarkM]

Sad, but funny PDF.



Sounds simple enough, but how can you reasonably assume the person is about to or is likely to do any of the above? If you used deadly force, you'd have to answer that question. Do you know the person isn't at the wrong house and thinks thier cheating spouse is inside? Maybe when they realized it was the wrong house they would have simply left?

Even in NH, a competent prosecutor will bring up such questions in front of a jury trying to make you look trigger happy.

Exactly, it is still a matter of judgement, do I recognize the guy as a confused neighbor?, is it a guy in a suit who appears drunk or disoriented?, is it a guy with a knife screaming wheres the money?

At least NH law is more on my side if I am forced to draw on someone and order them out of my house, or to take things further if they try to attack me or my wife.

 

[Twigg]

Geez, Here I was thinking this was real ...until I read the PDF.
It's probably just a matter of time though...

 

[hornydragon]

Sometimes is Bull**** how the law works in a case of self defense,
I have read and hear how they even defend the intruder...

 

[anthonyne]

Bullsh**,
If there's ever anyone in my house that shouldn't be, there is no doubt in my mind that the first thing I'm doing is clearing leather!

 

[SKS Ray]

I can't load the file because my connection is still screwy but I can say that in Mass from what I know you are required to make an attempt to get away from a situation be it on the street or in your own house. Shooting an unarmed intruder whos making his way upstairs to where you, your wife and children are in the middle of the night, theres a whole bunch of crap involved afterwards and you could wind up in jail. Myself and i'm sure many of you here are willing to take that chance with the legal system if it means ensuring the safety of your family. Ya know what i've heard the most from several diferent police officers that i've talked to on the subject? Make sure the guy is dead. All I know is i'd do a stretch anyday instead of having to take my chances with an intruder and possibly wind up burying my wife and daughter because I failed to protect them.

 

[Skald]

Me and my mom had a long talk about this, and even recently with me 'enlightened and educated' brother. The cop who I got my ALP from, my NRA Instructor/mentor both said that if I am forced into the situation where I have to draw my gun then don't shoot to wound. Both of their reasoning is better to be tried by 12 than carried off by six, and if it does goto trial, kind of hard to dispute the events that caused the thing when your 6ft under.

 

[Producer]

The PDF if missing something;

I keep a $2,000 retainer for many emergencies, this being one of them. If someone invades a house with small kids, I would find it hard to believe a jury would convict a homeowner with a decent lawyer.

 

[Producer]

Miss qoute / oxymoron. I meant "expert lawyer."

 

[Weerd Beard]

Sounds simple enough, but how can you reasonably assume the person is about to or is likely to do any of the above? If you used deadly force, you'd have to answer that question. Do you know the person isn't at the wrong house and thinks thier cheating spouse is inside? Maybe when they realized it was the wrong house they would have simply left?

Even in NH, a competent prosecutor will bring up such questions in front of a jury trying to make you look trigger happy.

Easy, My door is always locked so if somebody is in my house that means I either let them in, or they broke in. (very off case that maybe the door wasn't pulled all the way tight...still means the person walked in without any persumptions). Now personally if I'm in my bedroom with the door closed, and I hear sounds of my place getting robbed, I'm calling the cops and keeping my gun pointed at the bedroom door. With a little luck that door won't open untill the cops have cleaned up.

if I was confronted by a person in my home, if they do ANYTHING but run away or reach for the sky (and something that I otherwise find VERY VERY non-threatening), or they have a visable weapon, that's the wrong answer, and I will assume they are retaliating, and this is a deadly force situation.

Imagine it was the same situation with you (Let's put it on a public street because frankly are ANY of us messed up enugh to go into a strange home without permission????) You turn a corner and are looking at the rifling on a gun. Unless you posess Chuck Norris reflexes there is NO way you're going to neutralize this situation by force. yer gonna either run, or strike a submissive posture, and hope for the best.

The same goes for the perp. If he just wants my stereo, I'm not going to shoot a man for a peice of electronics, I will give the police enugh info to scour the world for that bastard! But if a person makes one threatining move in my home after entering un invited....that's a bad idea, and a justifyable use of lethal force.

-Weer'd Beard

 

[KMaurer]

... in Mass from what I know you are required to make an attempt to get away from a situation be it on the street or in your own house.

Only half right. You aren't required to retreat in your own home, nor have you been for roughly 20 years. It's amazing how long some things keep going around after they're no longer true. It's almost like the kid in a London hospital with cancer who was attempting to receive the world record number of get well cards. He was cured and left the hospital close to 30 years ago, but that doesn't mater on the Internet.

While I shake my head at the Mass idiocy, reality is a lot simpler. If you stop to think about whether it's a righteous shoot or anything about the law, your reputation, freedom or finances, the answer is a loud, unequivocal "No!"; you've still got other, better options for survival. Should the time ever actually come, you won't give a fart in a hurricane about what the law says or anything other than staying alive and/or keeping your family or other innocents alive.

Ken

 

[Coyote33]

...
That a good PDF!....

That should go here:

Handout on pepper spray and the perverse way Massachusetts treats such sprays as ammunition.

 

[Jaxon]

Bullsh**, If there's ever anyone in my house that shouldn't be, there is no doubt in my mind that the first thing I'm doing is clearing leather!

Exactly. The only way into my house is by key or break-in. Only my wife and I have a key. And... I'm pretty sure the alarm would be going off as well, so that's a clue. But even without the alarm, a stranger is history.

TO ME, its basic black and white.

Outside = safe. Inside = dead.

RJ

 

[Danguard Ace]

My wife and I are about to have a baby girl. If an intruder makes a run up the stairs to where my wife and child are (and past our two pit bulls ), I'm doing my best to stop him/her from completing those stairs. I don't care whether I can see a visible weapon or not. He'll get a warning, but not much more. I could not live with the fact that I might have prevented a catastrophe from happening had I stopped him with a bullet... or two... or three.

Question? If I have no choice but to shoot an armed perp in the back as he's about to enter my baby's room, is that a righteous shoot?

Originally posted by Milsurps 4 Me:
Make sure the guy is dead.

You hear this all the time... Killing the perp will not prevent his family from suing. Our lawyer tells me that many frivelous lawsuits go nowhere. But I'm not sure about this scenario. He's our family lawyer and he's VERY anti-gun. So we argue whenever the subject comes up and I'm not about to ask him.

Paul

 

[Jaxon]

<SNIP> I don't care whether I can see a visible weapon or not. He'll get a warning, but not much more.

The only warning such a perp would be likely to get is the passing of the first round, cause I missed.

I could not live with the fact that I might have prevented a catastrophe from happening had I stopped him with a bullet... or two... or three.

LEOs are trained - at least where I come from - to double-tap and shoot to stop. Of course we all KNOW what STOP really means. Why else would be train to target the "center mass"? Two or three rounds? "Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself."

Question? If I have no choice but to shoot an armed perp in the back as he's about to enter my baby's room, is that a righteous shoot?

El Diablo (1990)
Van Leek: Damn, boy! You shot him in the back.
Billy Ray Smith: Well, his back was to me!

You're in fear for your life, or the life of a family member.

You hear this all the time... Killing the perp will not prevent his family from suing. Our lawyer tells me that many frivelous lawsuits go nowhere. But I'm not sure about this scenario. He's our family lawyer and he's VERY anti-gun. So we argue whenever the subject comes up and I'm not about to ask him.

Paul

Yep, dead men tell no tales, but the family can alway sue. Its tougher without the "victim perp" telling how bad he had it growing up and that he really didn't mean to scare anyone.

RJ

 

[Twigg]

This thread seems to have a bit more seriousness to it so I'll add my thoughts. If somebody has forced their way into my house it is not a social call. I refuse to do what the police always say; "Don't resist.". Hell yes I'm gonna resist ! Take my TV. Take my truck. They're insured.

Take one step towards my wife or my son and it's game over. I keep a brand new 12Ga Mossberg 535 and a box of 3" OObuck shells in my bedroom.(Lawfully secured.) I wll use it without hesitation in defense of my family. Yes, I'll shoot. I don't care who reads this ...consider it a warning.

There was a home invasion last year right up the street from me. Thank God the woman escaped and she wasn't killed. I moved here from Fitchburg after having two attempted break-in's within six months. I am not moving again.

 

[hornydragon]

The only warning such a perp would be likely to get is the passing of the first round, cause I missed.


Hell Yeah, thats what I am just telling my wife, while we read this thread togheter. We can call that a warning shot If I missed !!
I"ll do anything to keep my family alive.
But somebody have to do something against that law, theres no way that a perp should have many rights if his doing something his not supposed to, to me thats Bull***, hopefully for everybody here if something happen , everything goes fine.

 

[Lugnut]

While I shake my head at the Mass idiocy, reality is a lot simpler. If you stop to think about whether it's a righteous shoot or anything about the law, your reputation, freedom or finances, the answer is a loud, unequivocal "No!"; you've still got other, better options for survival. Should the time ever actually come, you won't give a fart in a hurricane about what the law says or anything other than staying alive and/or keeping your family or other innocents alive.

Ken

Very well said. Imminent fear of you or you families' life... and I expect you'd know it when it happens God forbid.

 

[drgrant]

Me and my mom had a long talk about this, and even recently with me 'enlightened and educated' brother. The cop who I got my ALP from, my NRA Instructor/mentor both said that if I am forced into the situation where I have to draw my gun then don't shoot to wound.

This is kind of moot anyways, because when used in this context, a
firearm is a lethal weapon- there is no such thing as "shooting to wound".
Incidents in which a bullet only causes "just a wound" are a matter of luck and
happenstance, not planning or deliberate action. Sure it's possible
for someone to survive being shot, but there are too many factors at
play to guarantee survival of the target.... the overwhelming one is
the chaos of the situation.... what if the target rotates and all of a
sudden, what was going to be a coordinated shot to the shoulder ends up
passing through the guys arm, into his torso and then through his heart?

Additionally, even if the hit isnt "physically" incapacitating, weird
physiological traumas such as shock can take place.... and things could
go downhill from there and you'll still end up with a dead perp, even if
the wound caused by the bullet was not life threatening.

There are too many variables. The hollywood movie thing doesnt
pan out well in reality.

-Mike

 

[Coyote33]

ALBANY - Sen. David Paterson is pushing a bill that would require cops to shoot to wound

Shoot to hurt, pol urges cops

Shoot to Wound" Bill Offered in NY

NY Shoot to wound