What would you have done?

[Mike1911]

Many years ago (30 or so) before all this PC bulls**t came into being I stopped for a pack of smokes at a local store the next town over from me. I had my .38 S&W with me and I got a little sloppy as the gun butt was sticking out from shirt and could be seen. Well someone saw it and called the cops. I was walking toward my car and the next thing I knew 6 police cars, 10 cops had me surrounded like I was a bank robber or something. They threw me against the wall, patted me down and of course discovered my .38 which they took from me. One sgt. said to me, 'you better have a permit for this, or you're going to jail!". In my wallet I replied. Well, he saw it called it in discussed the situation with some of the other cops and came to a decision. They informed me that if I want my permit and gun back, I'd have to see the Chief of Police for that city on Monday morning (this happened on a Sat. afternoon).

On the Monday morning I went to see their Chief, but the situation was handled by another sgt. who said to me, we're informing the Chief in your town about this and he'll most likey pull your permit. I took my permit and pistol and left, saying nothing.

What would you have done or said?

I still have my permit BTW.

 

[FPrice]

Probably pretty much what you did. Try to stay calm and go back to see them. Sounds like the Chief was not really worried about it and the Sgt was trying to sound tough instead of apologizing for what they put you through.

On the whole, if nothing else happened, you did the right thing.

 

[matt1956]

"FROM MY COLD, DEAD HAND!"

 

[adweisbe]

Don't let them take the permit and firearm without a receipt. They did that to Replacement Tommel (guy on SigForum) and then charged him with carrying without a permit. It would be good to know if they have a right to take the permit at all, not that anyone could stop the <radio edit>.

 

[drgrant]

On the Monday morning I went to see their Chief, but the situation was handled by another sgt. who said to me, we're informing the Chief in your town about this and he'll most likey pull your permit. I took my permit and pistol and left, saying nothing.

What would you have done or said?

I still have my permit BTW.

Probably the same thing you did. If they did call your chief, either the
he didn't care (that might have been an interesting phone conversation
to listen to! ) or just didn't feel like holding it against you.

-Mike

 

[benster]

call a lawyer immediately to make sure everything was handled correctly and not mis-documented as I would not want to have any problems in the future when it was time to re-apply.

Whether you view it as right or wrong, the police were just doing their job, playing it safe and responding to a call regarding a gun. You did nothing wrong so you want to make sure it was documented as such.

 

[adweisbe]

the police were just doing their job

What job was that exactly? Confiscating legally owned, possessed, and licensed property? Confiscating a license using nonexistent statutory authority?

Still waiting for an answer to the question in my first post.

 

[Tweed]

Confiscating legally owned, possessed, and licensed property? Confiscating a license using nonexistent statutory authority?

Exactly! what was to stop them then from showing up at the house and confiscating all of the other stuff since they now had your permit? Tyranny!

 

[Mikey]

I'm with adweisbe, especially in mass b/c your LTC is not just your "License to Carry" it is also your "License to Own and or Possess".

The only problem is how do you tell the police “no”? Seems to me that especially in mass you cannot fight the Police until maybe after and with a very good lawyer. From what I have seen police do “very little wrong” especially in the eyes of the courts.

 

[Carguy]

Was the butt sticking out that prompted the call considered brandishing?

Is that enough to confiscate the weapon and hold your permit?

I don't know and would like to know.

If anyone has ever had an incident where they drew their weapon (never mind used it) was the weapon confiscated pending an investigation? Was their permit pulled pending an investigation? That is like pulling your driver's license because of a traffic violation or accident. I don't think either are legal or possible from a LEO's perspective, only the courts can pull your license...I think.

 

[Ripach]

I don't have an answer with regard to confiscating the permit, but the LEO who taught the basic safety class I took to get my LTC told us to expect to be locked up and have all of your firearms confiscated pending an investigation should you ever have to discharge a round in self defense.

So much for innocent until proven guilty

 

[benster]

Since the original post stated this was over 30 years ago, I'm not sure what the permits had written on them at that time nor would I think the police had the technology/database/network to verify information on the spot for the permit and see if it was in good standing and may have confiscated the permit and firearm as a very conservative measure. Heck more than likely, they were probably just very embarrassed for "calling all cars" to a situation which turned out to be a lawful citizen exercising his right to carry. They probably made the confiscation just to make themselves feel better about it.

I state "They were doing their job" as in responding to a call where somebody called in a report of a man in store with a gun and the pursuant aggressive patdown. If I were a PO, I'd take every precaution to make sure I'd make it home safe to my family. I would expect an apology once things were cleared up but I know thats not going to happen...

The point I'm trying to make is, whether I agree with how things were handled or not, I personally would not feel comfortable fighting the police over the confiscation of my firearm and permit at that time for risk of them throwing frivolous charges at me such as disorderly or anything else they want to make up. I agree with MagnumMike as the courts will always take the side of the police. This is when you want a lawyer fighting for you.

 

[RKG]

With the same observation that this anecdote is dated, the law has advanced (in a favorable direction) in recent years. "Because it is legal in Massachusetts to carry a handgun if properly licensed, a report that an individual possesses a handgun, without any additional information suggesting criminal activity, does not create a reasonable suspicion that a crime is or will be committed. See Commonwealth v. Couture, 407 Mass. 178, 183, 552 N.E.2d 538, cert. denied, 498 U.S. 951, 112 L. Ed. 2d 334, 111 S. Ct. 372 (1990)." Commonwealth v. Haskell, 438 Mass. 790, 793 (2003). "The ownership or possession of a handgun (or a rifle) is not a crime and standing alone creates no probable cause." Commonwealth v. Nowells, 390 Mass. 621, 627 (1983). Commonwealth v. Rojas, 403 Mass. 483, 485 n.3 (1988) ("possession of a handgun is not per se illegal"). "As we said in Commonwealth v. Alvarado, 423 Mass. 266, 269, 667 N.E.2d 856 (1996), `carrying a gun is not a crime. Carrying a firearm without a license (or other authorization) is. G. L. c. 269, §10 (a).' An anonymous tip that someone is carrying a gun does not, without more, constitute reasonable suspicion to conduct a stop and frisk of that individual." Commonwealth v. Barros, 435 Mass. 171, 177 (2001).

This suggests that, in the same circumstances, the matter would not be handled today as it is reported to have been handled 30 years ago.

Ironic, is it not, that a set of liberal rules work (in this situation) in favor of the gun person?

 

[Carguy]

But I wonder if it really would be handled differently today.

 

[rwl1955]

Brandishing

But I wonder if it really would be handled differently today.

****
There was an article in the newspaper(can`t remember which one) about a guy in Dedham who was carrying legal. He went into a store where a Dedham detective was also a customer. The guys coat opened and the cop saw his gun.
He immediately confronted the citizen and confiscated his gun and permit and told him he had to see the chief. The next day joe citizen meets with the chief and his told his permit is permanantly revoked. The guy lost all his guns. This was 10 years ago and he was still fighting to get his permit back with no luck.

 

[Adam_MA]

****
There was an article in the newspaper(can`t remember which one) about a guy in Dedham who was carrying legal. He went into a store where a Dedham detective was also a customer. The guys coat opened and the cop saw his gun.
He immediately confronted the citizen and confiscated his gun and permit and told him he had to see the chief. The next day joe citizen meets with the chief and his told his permit is permanantly revoked. The guy lost all his guns. This was 10 years ago and he was still fighting to get his permit back with no luck.

See the following post for the facts...

http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1251

 

[M1911]

That is like pulling your driver's license because of a traffic violation or accident. I don't think either are legal or possible from a LEO's perspective, only the courts can pull your license...I think.

LTCs are issued at the discretion of your police chief and can be pulled at his discretion as well. No need for court action to do so.

 

[b79holmes]

the key is CONCEALED

I just got my LTC this year and one of my course instructors was retired L.E.
He repeated a number of times that YOU MUST CARRY CONCEALED.

I'm not an attorney but one of the guys in the class was and to have a visible firearm starts to cross the line under the definition of assault.

Assault means you might hit me.
It's assault & battery when you do.

If someone is really fearful enough then I think it is technically 'assault'.

Bill

 

[Mikey]

Ya it is an assault, On our freedom!

This state has brainwashed the public to be afraid of guns and has instilled a fear of lawful CCW.

 

[Pilgrim]

If someone is really fearful enough then I think it is technically 'assault'.

I don't think that just because you are afraid of me, for a good reason or no reason, that I am assaulting you. IANAL

 

[drgrant]

I don't think that just because you are afraid of me, for a good reason or no reason, that I am assaulting you. IANAL

If someone openly carrying a gun in MA is "assaulting" someone, then we need
to round up a lot of LEOs, security and armored car guards....

-Mike

 

[adweisbe]

I've been assaulted by the police in my apartment under that definition.

 

[rscalzo]

I don't think that just because you are afraid of me, for a good reason or no reason, that I am assaulting you.

I think you might want to rethink that statement.

If someone who clearly outweighs you by one hundred pounds and six inches comes at you is a hostile manner and you are afraid for your life due to the possibility of serious bodily injury, who should not defend yourself in some manner as you are not being assaulted? I've seen many convicted of criminal charges without the physical act of actually touching another. We had (NJ) a charge called Terroristic Threat which was solely verbal. Simply putting another in fear of his life or health.

 

[Pilgrim]

I think you might want to rethink that statement.

If someone who clearly outweighs you by one hundred pounds and six inches comes at you is a hostile manner and you are afraid for your life due to the possibility of serious bodily injury, who should not defend yourself in some manner as you are not being assaulted? I've seen many convicted of criminal charges without the physical act of actually touching another. We had (NJ) a charge called Terroristic Threat which was solely verbal. Simply putting another in fear of his life or health.

I think the bolded is more the case. Walking by with a weapon showing is not the same thing as there is no over action that would scare someone...just the fact that the gun is there.

As I said, just being afraid of something does not constitute assault.

 

[Coyote33]

I just got my LTC this year and one of my course instructors was retired L.E.
He repeated a number of times that YOU MUST CARRY CONCEALED....

Anybody else here remember when it was you COULD NOT carry concealed? For some reason, that sticks out in my mind, though I was pretty young at the time. They didn't want you to "conceal" it as they thought you had something to hide.