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What would you do in this scenario?

Fooped said:
Which, while a damn good idea, is a myth. The nasal bridge and septum will break and possibly shatter, but the old wive's tale of "You can kill someone by palm heeling their nose up into their brain" is total bunk.

Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% for disabling and/or seriously injuring an attacker in this situation, but there's better ways to do it. The appropriate response would be dictated by the incident specifics.
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Fooped is correct. Otherwise every boxer whoever stepped into the ring would have died in the first round. They all get hit in just such a way eventually. The only ones who die do so from massive concusive brain trama brought on more from constant training (sparring) than time in the prize ring taking one big shot.
 
Ok so he was bigger than you? could you run faster? You should have kicked him in the jimmys and took off down the hill on your bike....
 
Fooped said:
Which, while a damn good idea, is a myth. The nasal bridge and septum will break and possibly shatter, but the old wive's tale of "You can kill someone by palm heeling their nose up into their brain" is total bunk.

Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% for disabling and/or seriously injuring an attacker in this situation, but there's better ways to do it. The appropriate response would be dictated by the incident specifics.
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Well, it's the only option I'd have. I'd never carry a gun while riding my bike because I could fall off and hurt myself falling on my gun.......[devil]
 
growing in Washington Heights and Lynn - one thing never changed: Punks

1. they all hit like girls
2. they can't take a punch
3. they really don't want any real trouble

stand your ground, they will NEVER mess with you. if they get you, get them back as previously pointed out. crack a homemade billy club over their skull and knock some sense into them.


I got your "boy" hangin,' you no-business, born insecure, jock-jawed, motha f*****! - Dolemite
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[rofl]
 
Do these courses and books I hear mentioned on this site touch on when you could say 'legally' your life has been threatened? For example, a man with a knife...life threatening? Man with a baseball bat...life threatening? Man starting to punch and beat you...life threatening? How does one size up a life threatening event?

I am a small, short guy. I've experienced that sometimes a small guy is like game to someone who is larger or anyone looking for a fight so to speak. Although my last fight was in high school (which I won by doing a Joe Pesci jump punch like in My Cousin Vinny...good times, ha ha, i was literally crazy back then), now a days I think I could easily misinterpret a situation or escalate a situation because of aged mistrust in people. So when a guy twice my size starts to become aggressive in my direction, what actions turn it life threatening? How am I to determine whether this is just a beating or a possible attempt to kill me? Or should I just take a beating? LOL

Lord knows if I pull a gun in a first fight, I'd probably go to jail...how was I to know?
 
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jay_chris said:
growing in Washington Heights and Lynn - one thing never changed: Punks

1. they all hit like girls
2. they can't take a punch
3. they really don't want any real trouble

stand your ground, they will NEVER mess with you. if they get you, get them back as previously pointed out. crack a homemade billy club over their skull and knock some sense into them.


[rofl]
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Agreed. I was going to respond to your other post but I held my tongue. What you implied, but didn't say outright was important. Victims look like victims before a single crime/attack/assault occurs. I have to think the OP was a sitting duck because he probably showed he was scared when he passed them by averting his eyes and deferring to the three "bad asses". In primatology one of the first things you learn is how monkeys, apes and chimps all turn away from the alpha male and defer. If you act like a victim, you will be a victim.

To the OP directly, don't get your self into a situation like that above. You don't want to shoot when the other guy doesn't have a gun. Learn to walk/ride/act more confidently in situations that could turn bad and learn to read situations and leave. Someone else said why didn't you jump on your bike and head back down the hill. That was a great piece of advice. Sometimes the best way out of a situation is to go right through it.
 
I would have ran home and told my parents.

But not sure what them being black has anything to do with it.

If a bunch of japanese school girls did the same thing I would have pissed myself, cried and called mommy.

It's just a bicycle.
 
terraformer said:
To the OP directly, don't get your self into a situation like that above.
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Well, I am sure this is true for some percentage (perhaps even large), it isn't a rule to live by... Never look like a victim, but don't assume that an "air of confidence" is a bullet proof vest either... This appears to be a common practice - flagging victims down with a relatively polite demeanor and then sucker punching them...

I had a similar thing happen when I was a kid only the assailants were in a minivan and I was on a bike. I realized after the fact, that they were upset that I had seen them driving away after robbing a house in the middle of the night (I was training by riding a bike in the wee hours of the morning in a large gated community).

I often wonder what I would have done if I were armed, but unless they were as well (I'll never know), I am sure it would have ended badly for me...

It was even worse than some of the hypo's here because each of the three of them were pretty small compared to me. They only managed to land one punch in the whole process and I was unfazed by it (not unbruised, but unfazed). He was reaching up so far to hit my head that it hurt, but it didn't have enough force to matter...

In the end, I pushed the three of them off balance with my bike and got out of there. It was dark, I was outnumbered and unarmed.

In my mind the threat I faced was deadly - Had I stayed and fought, I know I had enough of an advantage to do some damage, perhaps even take them all down, but the reality of 3:1 on even with training is that even a slight misjudgment and you are down. Once you are down, the kicking starts and the mortal wounds start...

But, you don't need to look far to realize that most juries who haven't experienced this are looking for something sharp or shooty before they can justify the victim's use of lethal force. UNLESS there is a size disparity - which as I mentioned, would not have worked in my favor. Compared to any one of them, I'd look like an ogre if I it gone to court...

The other lesson I learned from this is that as an individual, the police can NEVER protect YOU. You are a statistic waiting to happen. The police can protect the community (i.e. the "next guy" your perp assaults), but not you. By the time you are a "victim". It's too late for the police to help...
 
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I would have ran home and [STRIKE]told my parents[/STRIKE] grabbed a baseball bat.

But not sure what them being black has anything to do with it. agreed, i figured he was physically describing them

If a bunch of japanese school girls did the same thing I would have pissed myself, cried and called mommy. i would have stayed & played [smile]

It's just a bicycle. - but this one is MINE [rofl]


these are fun memories for me.. especially when I have had to run from 15 punks because i beat one of their friends assess.

so i enjoy reading the responces (obviously).
 
jay_chris said:
you let them run up on you?



he would have had to whip my ass or worse to take my bike! i delivered a lot of newspapers to buy it and no punk is going to take it. i've been there done that.

revenge is sweet!

i don't carry when i ride my mountain bike nowdays, but then again, i ride fast... same rules apply.

i was raised to hit back if hit...

and now

[popcorn]
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My goodness, FINALLY!!

I would have done just what I did when those kids at lynn beach tried to take my bike in 1985...I would have punched the biggest one as hard as I could in the nose like you're supposed to do, whether you think you're going to get your a$$ beat or not. I'd rather come home on crutches than to have to come home and tell my father I actually let some kids take my stuff without a fight.

And the whole question is moot anyway...if you did nothing then, you'd do nothing now...how many "what if", mall-ninja call and response posts do we need around here anyway?
 
cekim said:
Well, I am sure this is true for some percentage (perhaps even large), it isn't a rule to live by... Never look like a victim, but don't assume that an "air of confidence" is a bullet proof vest either... This appears to be a common practice - flagging victims down with a relatively polite demeanor and then sucker punching them...
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Agreed. I never meant to imply it was a fool proof plan, just something to lessen the likelihood of being a victim.
 
Major Blood said:
I'd rather come home on crutches than to have to come home and tell my father I actually let some kids take my stuff without a fight.
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Old school kids knew if you came home and told dad you didn't put up a fight to avoid an ass whupping...that you got an ass whupping for it. Better to come home bloody.
 
I just don't see it

To the OP, using just the original scenerio you offered up, I see no justification for the use/application of deadly force. You have not articulated any fear for your LIFE or any reasonable expectation that your LIFE was in danger. Elevated alert level? SURE! Ready to act? SURE! But drawing your weapon and/or using it under the scenerio you offer... here in Massachusetts (or really anywhere else)? No way.
 
911_Ted said:
To the OP, using just the original scenerio you offered up, I see no justification for the use/application of deadly force. You have not articulated any fear for your LIFE or any reasonable expectation that your LIFE was in danger. Elevated alert level? SURE! Ready to act? SURE! But drawing your weapon and/or using it under the scenerio you offer... here in Massachusetts (or really anywhere else)? No way.
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Well, it depends. A pretty large guy is holding you by the neck and saying "That's gong to hurt". A clear indication that you life is in danger.
 
Palladin said:
Similiar situation happened when I was 17 or so. I had the reaction to flip open the knife I had in my pocket...but, I also had the presence of mind to realize if I stabbed the kid, I'd be the one going to jail. I folded it back up.


caught up with him a year later & slammed a 2x4 across his back...I felt better. [wink]
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+1 You've got the right idea, Pallidin. They say, "Payback is a bitch." I remember a kid that took a beating from a bigger older one. A few years later the kid grew to be a moose and went hunting for his enemy. He found him and more than evened the score.
 
Yelena said:
Well, it depends. A pretty large guy is holding you by the neck and saying "That's gong to hurt". A clear indication that you life is in danger.
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Not really, unless the attacker is MUCH bigger than you, you really don't ever have justification for shooting an unarmed person. Situations like this SCREAM out for OC.

While I think you should (in an ideal world) be able to shoot someone for trying to steal your bike, car, or threatening to beat you up: I think it's a really big stretch to use deadly force when the other person is unarmed.

In terms of fist-fights, if you carrying, that's probably the last thing you want to get involved with.
 
911_Ted said:
To the OP, using just the original scenerio you offered up, I see no justification for the use/application of deadly force. You have not articulated any fear for your LIFE or any reasonable expectation that your LIFE was in danger.
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You would be the juror I fear most...

You are trying to apply and logic after the fact to a situation you either haven't experienced or don't recall very well if you did...

The "attacker" has already assaulted him by grabbing him by the neck. You can with minimal force kill someone in this way. Now we are ignoring the fact that they are teenagers for a moment because we are discussing carrying concealed weapons which I doubt too many people want teenagers to be doing. Their brains aren't yet fully formed and we know from experience and scientifically now they don't work quite right[laugh]

So, speaking of adults, what always concerns me most about this situations is that even those who believe in one's right to self defense apply "after the fact thinking" to the scenario knowing the non-lethal outcome and failing to maintain objectivity because of it...

Punching someone can be deadly too, but its harder than choking someone. If you have ever experienced this scenario, then I think would find it less clear once someone has threatened lethal force that you don't have the right to do the same. Or to threaten by showing your weapon without firing it...

This is a gray area and "reasonableness" standards apply. Unfortunately what is "reasonable" for someone who is LEO or military and someone who has never been assaulted in this way and is not trained to respond with non-lethal force are very different things...

p.s. If ever I was on trial for something like this, I would insist on a re-enactment. People's TV based assumptions about what this is like are totally flawed and assuming that 12 (or 6) of your peers will understand what you faced that day is a VERY poor assumption. Even if they are basically reasonable and intelligent people - our species has lost touch with the reality of "the wild" and it shows...
 
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I have not re read "In The Gravest Extreme" in about 25 years now. I no longer carry a gun, I have no need to anymore, but there was a time in my life when I had one within reach or on my person 24/7, and what I read in that book taught me to keep the gun in the holster and concealed unless I had reason to fear for my life.

The book deals with a lot of issues, including escalation of force, shooting at people while playing good Samaritan, and a bunch of other topics. I strongly suggest that if you own a gun you read it. It is very eye opening. Some gun shops might carry it or it is available on line.

My favorite line in the book is in the section on different calibers of guns. It goes something like " a .25 is a nice thing to have when you don't have a gun".

Massad Ayoob lives in NH and runs clinics you can attend IIRC
 
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cekim said:
...
You are trying to apply and logic after the fact to a situation you either haven't experienced or don't recall very well if you did...

The "attacker" has already assaulted him by grabbing him by the neck. You can with minimal force kill someone in this way. Now we are ignoring the fact that they are teenagers for a moment because we are discussing carrying concealed weapons which I doubt too many people want teenagers to be doing. Their brains aren't yet fully formed and we know from experience and scientifically now they don't work quite right[laugh]

So, speaking of adults, what always concerns me most about this situations is that even those who believe in one's right to self defense apply "after the fact thinking" to the scenario knowing the non-lethal outcome and failing to maintain objectivity because of it...

Punching someone can be deadly too, but its harder than choking someone. If you have ever experienced this scenario, then I think would find it less clear once someone has threatened lethal force that you don't have the right to do the same. Or to threaten by showing your weapon without firing it...

This is a gray area and "reasonableness" standards apply. Unfortunately what is "reasonable" for someone who is LEO or military and someone who has never been assaulted in this way and is not trained to respond with non-lethal force are very different things...
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^^ You'd go to jail in a heartbeat.

Imminent threat of bodily harm does not enter into the small explanation provided by simple assault.

All that stuff about teenagers and mental status would not be relevant at your trial either.
 
clinotus said:
^^ You'd go to jail in a heartbeat.

Imminent threat of bodily harm does not enter into the small explanation provided by simple assault.
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+1 - if you shoot an unarmed person you need to have extremely good reason, and they better have hurt you pretty bad before you do so.

This is the biggest problem with carrying - you can't shoot people for picking a fist-fight with you. You can't shoot the guy at the bar who shoves you because you looked at his wife. You can't shoot the homeless who grabs your arm begging you change. And you can't shoot someone just because they tell you they are going to hurt you.

Only in very,very extreme conditions can you use deadly force on an unarmed person. Fortunately, you can mace the shit out of someone for just about reason.
 
clinotus said:
^^ You'd go to jail in a heartbeat.

Imminent threat of bodily harm does not enter into the small explanation provided by simple assault.

All that stuff about teenagers and mental status would not be relevant at your trial either.
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Well, I am glad it is so black and white for you - keeps things simple[wink]

Assault is just an "unwanted touching" - I'd say (and I bet I could find a few DA's who agree) grabbing someone by the throat is more than that - "aggravated assault"... He said "grabbed me by the neck", so I have no idea how much force was applied to what part...

It's a spectrum, a matter of degrees - there is no easy answer as to when something turns "deadly" and "after the fact thinkers" who haven't had the pleasure of trying to figure that out in real time have a rather romantic view of your cognitive abilities at the time of such an event[wink]

p.s. I never said this scenario would justify a shooting. I said you guys are showing the same scary black and white approach I hear from so many juries that scares the heck out of me...
 
cekim said:
Well, I am glad it is so black and white for you - keeps things simple[wink]

Assault is just an "unwanted touching" - I'd say (and I bet I could find a few DA's who agree) grabbing someone by the throat is more than that - "aggravated assault"... He said "grabbed me by the neck", so I have no idea how much force was applied to what part...

It's a spectrum, a matter of degrees - there is no easy answer as to when something turns "deadly" and "after the fact thinkers" who haven't had the pleasure of trying to figure that out in real time have a rather romantic view of your cognitive abilities at the time of such an event[wink]
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You really think you can shoot someone for grabbing you around the neck?
 
Mass-diver said:
+1 - if you shoot an unarmed person you need to have extremely good reason, and they better have hurt you pretty bad before you do so.
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[thinking]So, I have a duty to be harmed before I defend myself now? You too are excused from my jury[wink]

See my above posts - I hope you never have to experience such a situation, but you are going to learn a lot if you do...
 
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