I sold a rifle to someone the other day and because I was at my limit of 4 for the year I went through a local FFL. I've never done this in the past so I wasn't sure of the mechanics of it. When I looked at the fa10 document it had the ffl dealers name as the seller. So I was curious, did I on paper transfer ownership to the ffl then they transfered ownership to the actual buyer?
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What is the actual legal process when an FFL does a transfer for me?
- Thread starter Lxpony
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one-eyed Jack
Manufacturer
Ayuh. Jack.
one-eyed Jack
Manufacturer
That means yes in Maine lingo. Jack.
boilermaker
NES Member
Yes, there should have been an fa10 to transfer from you to the FFL and then a separate transaction (4473 and fa10) for the new owner from the FFL.
In practice nobody (or very few dealers) actually do this the way you described most dealers will just log it into their bound books and then the only efa10 that gets done is on the back end when it goes the new buyer.
Mtn_Guy
NES Member
curious why you wouldn’t ask the FFL who did the transfer...
It certainly could. The FA10 just notes a transaction though. So if you transferred to an FFL and then ultimately out of state, whereby a second FA10 for that firearm would not be filed then the last owner per MA records would be you--possibly forever. That doesn't mean you own the gun anymore though. To this point, it's not a bad idea to get a receipt from the FFL for the transaction and keep it with your FA10 copy for when you first obtained the firearm--ff you're the type to keep records.
cathouse01
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However, this is why forcing all transfers to go through an FFL (also know as universal background check) is so bad for us Ma**holes. The FFL actual does log the firearm into their bound book so now, under MA law, they are subject to their normal FFL restrictions when transferring the gun to the new owner. Meaning that if you have an “off list” gun (perfectly legal to own), there will technically be no way for you to transfer to a new owner in MA. You’ll have to sell it out if state.
Why would you go to an ffl with an off roster firearm in the first place? If you’re out of personal transfers then you don’t sell it.
Wickedcoolname
NES Member
You'll be all set as long as you were wearing a mask during game the transfer.
cathouse01
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With universal background check there are no personal transfers. That’s the point, you can ONLY do a transfer through an FFL. No more face-to-face transfers, period. And that’s my point, without face-to-face transfers, you just don’t sell it (except to someone out of state via an FFL).
ETA: Or buy it for that matter. You might be able to get a semi-auto via a frame transfer, but forget that off list revolver you wanted. Even if someone in MA has one and wants to sell it, they’ll only be able to sell it to an out of state resident via FFL.
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Ah yes, the next shit show that is to come.
CrackPot
NES Member
- Gun logged into FFL bound book from you.
- Ideally receipt supplied to you from FFL showing they took in the gun. This is all you might need in the future should a trace be done on the gun and unpleasant people show up at your door
- If you care (some say it Is required, most say it is not, essentially no one does it), YOU can do a FA10 transfer to the dealer using the dealer license number (D20xxxxx) No real point since the FA10 database is write only (everything you ever registered is always registered to you) FA10s are the responsibility of the person selling/transferring. That is why YOU have to do it if you really want to transfer it to the dealer. Dealer wont care since they are dealing with it federally only.
- Buyer does 4473 with FFL
- FFL checks box on FFL for "facilitating a private transfer"
- FFL does federal background check
- FFL does FA10 through MIRCS dealer interface registering the transaction with MA (from dealer to buyer)
No, it is an absolute that once logged with your name, it stays there forever. That info direct from FRB Director.
Not needed and almost no MA dealer is going to do this.
Yes, and if you can show a receipt to the next owner, they go away and don't bother you any further.
CrackPot
NES Member
The gun is traced through the ATF in Martinsburg WV (as an FFL, you learn what a number from that location likely means). The ATF takes the gun info: mfg, model, serial number. The ATF contacts the manufacturer and asks for info on who the gun was sold to. The mfg tells them. This is usually a distributor. The ATF contacts the distributor and tells them the info and says they received it on or after such and such a date from the mfg. The distributor tells the ATF who they sold it to, usually a dealer. The ATF contacts the dealer. They provide the gun info and say that the dealer received it on or after such and such a date from the distributor. The dealer says who they sold to and when. The ATF asks for a copy of the 4473 to be faxed to or scanned and emailed to them. The ATF then provides the point of first non-licensed ownership to the tracing law enforcement agency. They can then contact the person who purchased and continue the trace through more manual means. This can result in some form of law enforcement showing up at your door and asking about the gun you bought 18 years ago. This is a good time to have an answer.
If the any licensed party (by license I mean FFL, not state level crap) is no longer in operation or the records are over 20 years old, then the ATF just goes to their own files. Martinsburg has all old FFL records. They have either been scanned and digitized or they are in boxes awaiting scanning and digitization. The can do the trace themselves on old records.
If the trace goes from a unlicensed party (you) back to a dealer, the ATF will get back involved and contact the dealer to find out where it went from there. Remember that ALL bound books and 4473s are us government property and not the property of the FFL. When you discontinue operation you mail them to the ATF. When they get old enough, you mail them to the ATF.
In theory they cannot be subject to a search warrant or subpoena by local law enforcement since they are property of the USG. When I did my original ATF interview they were very clear about owning these records and to contact them should anyone attempt to get access. While they will usually grant local law enforcement access, they get very picky about how it happens (they dont want it happening w/o them).
CrackPot
NES Member
No MA dealer can or will do this because they cannot. Recording of transactions is always the responsibility of the "seller". So if it goes from a private party to a MA dealer, the private party would have to record the transaction as a eFA10 private party transfer with the recipient being the MA dealers dealer number. This is a number formatted as D200xxxxD and will (by law) be posted in plain site at the place of business of the MA dealer.
And 99.9% of people do not do this. The way the law is written it is not unambiguously required so I cannot imagine why anyone would do this unless they wanted this as their "proof" that the gun was transferred. A regular receipt from the FFL would seem better to me.
cathouse01
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Question, I know if I do a face-to-face transfer, both of us need to enter our PIN. If I were to transfer to a dealer, do I just need the dealer number, or does the dealer have to enter in their equivalent of a pin? Since the dealer number is posted by law, I would hope the dealer would have to be involved in the transaction.
cathouse01
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I guess I was confused. I've only done one face-to-face and I was the buyer. I used my PIN to verify my LTC for the seller but that must have been before we did the actual transfer. Seems like you could transfer anything you wanted to to someone if you knew their LTC number or dealer number and they would never know.
That's for that stupid LTC validation thing, different ballgame.
ETA: the sooner you realize that the entire system is a pile of garbage that's almost meaningless the better off you'll be. That system only exists as a construct so people can comply with the law, that doesn't mean that it's actually any good at what it's supposed to do....
JGreen
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Here is the citation. FYI section 128 requires you to notify the FRB when you dispose of a gun. Section 128A is the exemption to 128. Section 122 is a " Massachusetts Licensed Firearms Dealer". Don't give a gun to a dealer without getting a receipt! The fact of the matter: There is no mechanism for a dealer to notify the FRB that they have received a gun from you.
Section 128A: Application of Sec. 128
Section 128A. The provisions of section one hundred and twenty-eight shall not apply to any person who, without being licensed as provided in section one hundred and twenty-two, sells or transfers a firearm, rifle or shotgun to a person licensed under said section one hundred and twenty-two, or to a federally licensed firearms dealer or to a federal, state or local historical society, museum or institutional collection open to the public. The provisions of section one hundred and twenty-eight shall not apply to any resident of the commonwealth who, without being licensed as provided in section one hundred and twenty-two, sells or transfers to other than a federally licensed firearms dealer or organization named above not more than four firearms, including rifles and shotguns in any one calendar year; provided, however, that the seller has a firearm identification card or a license to carry firearms, is an exempt person under the conditions of clauses (n), (o), (r) and (s) of the fourth paragraph of section one hundred and twenty-nine C, or is permitted to transfer ownership under the conditions of section one hundred and twenty-nine D and the purchaser has, in the case of sale or transfer of a firearm, a permit to purchase issued under the provisions of section one hundred and thirty-one A and a firearm identification card issued under section one hundred and twenty-nine B, or has such permit to purchase and is an exempt person under the provisions of section one hundred and twenty-nine C, or has been issued a license to carry firearms under the provisions of section one hundred and thirty, or in the case of sale or transfer of a rifle or shotgun, the purchaser has a firearm identification card or a license to carry firearms or is an exempt person as hereinbefore stated. Any sale or transfer conducted pursuant to this section shall comply with section 131E and shall, prior to or at the point of sale, be conducted over a real time web portal developed by the department of criminal justice information services. The department of criminal justice information services shall require each person selling or transferring a firearm, shotgun or rifle pursuant to this section to electronically provide, though the portal, such information as is determined to be necessary to verify the identification of the seller and purchaser and ensure that the sale or transfer complies with this section. Upon submission of the required information, the portal shall automatically review such information and display a message indicating whether the seller may proceed with the sale or transfer and shall provide any further instructions for the seller as determined to be necessary by the department of criminal justice information services. The department of criminal justice information services shall keep a record of any sale or transfer conducted pursuant to this section and shall provide the seller and purchaser with verification of such sale or transfer.
Section 128A: Application of Sec. 128
Section 128A. The provisions of section one hundred and twenty-eight shall not apply to any person who, without being licensed as provided in section one hundred and twenty-two, sells or transfers a firearm, rifle or shotgun to a person licensed under said section one hundred and twenty-two, or to a federally licensed firearms dealer or to a federal, state or local historical society, museum or institutional collection open to the public. The provisions of section one hundred and twenty-eight shall not apply to any resident of the commonwealth who, without being licensed as provided in section one hundred and twenty-two, sells or transfers to other than a federally licensed firearms dealer or organization named above not more than four firearms, including rifles and shotguns in any one calendar year; provided, however, that the seller has a firearm identification card or a license to carry firearms, is an exempt person under the conditions of clauses (n), (o), (r) and (s) of the fourth paragraph of section one hundred and twenty-nine C, or is permitted to transfer ownership under the conditions of section one hundred and twenty-nine D and the purchaser has, in the case of sale or transfer of a firearm, a permit to purchase issued under the provisions of section one hundred and thirty-one A and a firearm identification card issued under section one hundred and twenty-nine B, or has such permit to purchase and is an exempt person under the provisions of section one hundred and twenty-nine C, or has been issued a license to carry firearms under the provisions of section one hundred and thirty, or in the case of sale or transfer of a rifle or shotgun, the purchaser has a firearm identification card or a license to carry firearms or is an exempt person as hereinbefore stated. Any sale or transfer conducted pursuant to this section shall comply with section 131E and shall, prior to or at the point of sale, be conducted over a real time web portal developed by the department of criminal justice information services. The department of criminal justice information services shall require each person selling or transferring a firearm, shotgun or rifle pursuant to this section to electronically provide, though the portal, such information as is determined to be necessary to verify the identification of the seller and purchaser and ensure that the sale or transfer complies with this section. Upon submission of the required information, the portal shall automatically review such information and display a message indicating whether the seller may proceed with the sale or transfer and shall provide any further instructions for the seller as determined to be necessary by the department of criminal justice information services. The department of criminal justice information services shall keep a record of any sale or transfer conducted pursuant to this section and shall provide the seller and purchaser with verification of such sale or transfer.
EJFudd
NES Member
It may (by law) be posted somewhere, but unless you have better eyesight than I have, you're probably going to have to ask for the number... and then you might be surprised at the number of dealers who don't know about the eFA-10 seller reporting requirement and are not willing to share their dealer number (and some would argue with good reason).
![[thinking]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/010.gif "Thinking [thinking]")
I love being in that 0.1%. Makes me feel special.
![[cheers]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/018.gif "Cheers [cheers]")
The truth is that 99% of sellers (to dealers) have no clue whatsoever about the eFA-10 reporting requirement.
Are we as Mass gun law slaves “required” to keep records?
I mean it probably would help if your ever in a bind but I did 2 transfers the other day and my phone decided not to save a copy. No big deal I have the FA10 ticket numbers .
I know a dude that, supposedly, at one time, had actually possessed the gun that the Craigslist killer (markoff) used. ATF contacted him. He just told the ATF what dealer the gun went to when he sold/traded it, that was the end of that. I forget wtf the gun was, it's bugging the shit out of me.. .
Where are you quoting the word "required" from because I never used that word? Try reading what I wrote again--and maybe slower this time.
Hey, if you're comfortable the Mass AG will only use the state's records in your best interest and you'd never need your own copies of your transfers--then good luck with that!
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