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What If?

namedpipes

namedpipes

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As some suggest the economy finishes collapsing. Practically nobody is working anymore. Banks foreclose left and right and there is just enough law & order that people can't get away with staying put. What you have is what you have and nothing more available except through growing, hunting or stealing. You have a 4x4, camping, fishing & hunting gear, a family and enough food / gas money to get the eff out of town.

If you're lucky, maybe you have enough to put your heirlooms and less replacable stuff in storage.

Now what?

Find a national park and setup camp in the middle, waiting for the ranger to cart you off like the "lords" of medieval Europe did when you poached their deer?

Squat on someone's private land until they come after you with a shotgun?

Cross into the Canadian Rockies and lay low from the Mounties and the Bears?

Any better ideas?
 
I read this blog frequently, also bought his book (excellent): http://ferfal.blogspot.com/

What he says is that in his experience with the Argentinian collapse, it really never went all "Mad Max" apocalypse. Read his blog for advice on that, he has lots to give.

I see it being more crime, more poverty, more socialist dictatorship, but people still have jobs, still go to work (if they have it), and so on.

I don't think it's feasible to plan to run to the hills. First of all, where to? No matter where you go, the locals have it staked out already. There is no place left that is not within reach of Big Brother. I think that whole head-to-the-hills thing is a bad idea. Secondly, by the time you're done bringing what you need for a family you need a u-haul. It's not really feasible. Real life, could you support your family off of what is in the woods nearby? Can the woods nearby support your family, as well as hundreds and hundreds of other refugees?? It's pretty wooded and all where I am. I look around and you know what I see to sustain life, food-wise? Virtually nothing. I don't know a LOT about wildcrafting (getting edibles and medicinals & such from the wild) but I do know a little. There really isn't a whole lot there and it sure won't sustain hundreds of people. Besides which, come on- it would be easy for .gov to round up the dissidents no matter where you went.

Better to plan on staying where you are. Country has it's advantages, close to towns/cities has it's advantages. Really you don't want to be a day's drive away from a hospital, do you?

So all in all I really don't believe in the Mad Max scenario. I think Ferfal has it right and I highly recommend reading his blog (and his book if you can get it:) http://ferfal.blogspot.com/

If I have it wrong and we need to head to the hills- so be it. But I don't think there's a way to make it successful, it would be a last-ditch effort to save your skin.
 
That's a tough one. Despite aspirations to the contrary, I probably wouldn't make it very long out in the woods by myself. I'd die of natural causes before I have to worry about the feds rounding me up for daring to live on my own away from their grasp.

While leaving the country is always a thought, if things got that bad then it is probably too late to leave -- they would shut things down and you'd be stuck. Even if you could get out on a plane, good luck carrying out a store of value without it being taken -- you may be broke in the foreign country. The trick is to predict the future and leave before it is too late, but without leaving so early that you feel like an idiot years later. Some of the Jews in Germany saw it coming and left with their stuff. The ones who realized a little slow what was going on left with just the clothing on their backs. And, we know what happened to the rest.
 
Folks, there will be no other country to go to. Think bigger- all this that is going on here is planned in advance by those that work for the New World Order, that want a one-world system with no national sovereignty, and so on. There is no place to go to, folks need to get that out of their head. This will affect how one prepares so it's important. And no there's no "rapture" of "saints" either so us Christians here need to recognize we're not getting a free pass either. [thinking]
 
I'm heading to Canada. We have a cottage and 70 acres of forest, fields, ponds and streams. The ocean is across the street. A fishing village is within walking distance. Deer wander across the front lawn. Fresh water is bountiful. The woods are full of apple trees and blueberry bushes. We can heat the house with wood, although we do need electricity for the hot air circulation system.

Yup... I'm heading to Canada...
 
richc said:
I'm heading to Canada. We have a cottage and 70 acres of forest, fields, ponds and streams. The ocean is across the street. A fishing village is within walking distance. Deer wander across the front lawn. Fresh water is bountiful. The woods are full of apple trees and blueberry bushes. We can heat the house with wood, although we do need electricity for the hot air circulation system.

Yup... I'm heading to Canada...
Click to expand...

Sounds gorgeous! [grin] It would be a lovely way to spend your life, truly.

But I'm curious, what will you do about citizenship? What if laws change and they want to deport you back to America? What if the same socialistic fascism comes to Canada? (as I'm firmly convinced it will)- what then?
 
Hopefully there will be some kind of secessionist movement near by to join...if not my family has land in northern VT, the plan would be to get up there and live off of mother nature's bounty...
 
You can buy 10+ acres of woodland in bumf*ck, Maine for $5,000 or less. Do that now, then you have somewhere to go. [wink]
 
I'm going to get myself a squeegee and a spray bottle full of windshield wash. Them wait for the ruling class elites to drive by in their emissions & fuel mileage exempt union built limos. Hoping to be tossed a stale piece of bread crust as I grovel for crumbs curbside from the nobles.
 
JohnM said:
You can buy 10+ acres of woodland in bumf*ck, Maine for $5,000 or less. Do that now, then you have somewhere to go. [wink]
Click to expand...

O.k., realistically now. And please understand I am only playing Devil's Advocate here, I'm trying to flesh out the situation more realistically to give greater understanding to myself & everyone else.

I have to get the generator up there, dig a well, clear land for a garden, find out zoning laws to at least put up some kind of shelter, put in some manner of handling sewage (find out what is legal, sometimes outhouses aren't legal I think), get the food up there, and every other little thing from kerosene to soap.

O.k. in a true Mad Max scenario, the .gov and the military/police are looking to round up dissidents and put them in FEMA camps. So you have to further plan to keep your hideout hidden from the air, hidden from heat detection, etc. This takes an enormous amount of money and time and work. Really what you are trying to do is run, and keep running- because whatever you do otherwise is almost certainly not going to work. You're out gunned, outmanned, and they have far superior technology.

If it's not Mad Max, how will you support yourself while you live in the woods? What was the point in leaving your job again?

If it comes to running for the hills then it's just going to be running, period. No building cabins on a puny 10 acres- the helicopters with the heat detection will make short work of that.

No offense meant to anyone here, I hope that's understood. [grin]
 
Raoul Duke said:
I'm entertaining cannibalism. Wait, you did say Wendy's was closed, right? Yeah then, cannibalism.
Click to expand...
salesman said:
Mmmmmmm, Wendy's...........
Click to expand...

Mmmmmm.... Wendy! [grin]


Dimitry Orlov posted a big fat tome along those lines but,on a much longer time frame.

http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2009/06/definancialisation-deglobalisation.html

I am still not done reading it, there is allot to think about though.


Putting aside the heat seeking helicopters for a moment, If there were truly a "Mad Max" scenario, the helicopters would be busier elsewhere, far too valuable an asset to be chasing lone individuals through the woods.

Whatever "it" is I don't think it will happen quickly. We won't wake up at 8:00AM Wednesday and look out the window and find that civilization has crashed and then have to suddenly GTFO. Civilizations and societies change slowly, I mean it took Rome almost 400 years to collapse. What I think about is where / what would i want to be doing to be the least impacted and at the same time, have a place and skills that my kids become familiar with as it will be more their existence than mine.

When I think about the "What if?" I always come back to the same answer, Out in the boonies alone you are toast, in near the city alone you are toast.

The only way I see anyone standing a chance is as part of a community of like minded and interested people, ala this country from the time of the colonists through the end of settling of the West.

Isolated, small, independent towns that relied on nothing or very little from outside. How you manage that before anything comes to pass is beyond me at this point.

I've read mention of "Deliberate" or "Transitional" communities. I haven't read much about them. I sure don't know where you'd find one around here.

From what I have seen so far seems a little too communal or focused on "Green Living" for my tastes. To me it seems it might be too easy to fall into "group think", Ideology, or worse something akin to "JonesTown", in those sort of places. Not my cup of tea.

I have in mind something like:
"Welcome to Tick's Navel*, Pop. 325".
*Miscreants, Troublemakers, Con-men, Snake Oil Salesmen, Lawyers, Bankers, and Politicians will be shot and or hanged. All others will be eyed suspiciously until proven otherwise.

Where in the 325 residents play some part in the infrastructure, commerce, and common defense of the town. Not because they are "communal" but through freedom of choice and personal benefit and profit. ie: this country before big banks, government and corporations got a hold of it.

Barring that, find a herd of something that migrates, follow it, become a nomad, and start a clan.
 
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I'm staying right here unless I have to leave for some reason like a terror attack or natural disaster. I've tried to live way out in the Rockies with minimal supplies and it is a real tough act. staying put is your best option, you can band together with Friends, family, neighbors, and like minded individuals. I feel the most likely scenario would be high unemployment, devalued currency, and social unrest. In this scenario I could survive by gardening, foraging, hunting, trading goods/services, and taking what I need by force.
I really feel a trading market will develop in the near future maybe the reemergence of flea markets or people trading goods/services. My friends are already trading lots of stuff. my buddy's wife gives out hair cuts in her salon in exchange for odd jobs around the house. Trading is free of tax and in tough times could become very popular. just my 2cents what do i know.
 
brew3x said:
I'm staying right here unless I have to leave for some reason like a terror attack or natural disaster. I've tried to live way out in the Rockies with minimal supplies and it is a real tough act. staying put is your best option, you can band together with Friends, family, neighbors, and like minded individuals. I feel the most likely scenario would be high unemployment, devalued currency, and social unrest. In this scenario I could survive by gardening, foraging, hunting, trading goods/services, and taking what I need by force.
I really feel a trading market will develop in the near future maybe the reemergence of flea markets or people trading goods/services. My friends are already trading lots of stuff. my buddy's wife gives out hair cuts in her salon in exchange for odd jobs around the house. Trading is free of tax and in tough times could become very popular. just my 2cents what do i know.
Click to expand...

That's it in a nutshell!

ETA: I don't agree with taking what I need by force......nope.
 
I'm thinking Newfoundland or Nova Scotia via boat, in TEOTWAWKI.
I am avoiding all roads in major SHTF.
Today Rt. 128 was shut down in both directions due to a fallen utility pole,it was carnage for hours.I sat in stationary traffic for almost 1&1/2hrs.
(makes one think)
 
I'm not much worried about FEMA camps or black helicopters. If the SHTF and I can stay put, I will, I'm more than prepared. If the SHTF and I have to get out of dodge, I will, and I'm prepared for that too. I know how to survive in the Maine woods. I could live where my northern "hideout" is for perhaps 2 years without resupply.

Now, if there's an asteroid hit, I'm dead. If there's a nuclear winter, I'm dead. If I need emergency surgery to survive and there are no surgeons or hospital, I'm dead. If I get some infection that I don't have the correct antibiotic for, I'm dead. If someone fires an RPG at my 4x4 as I'm driving north, I'm dead, etc. etc. etc. Just because you're prepared doesn't mean you always survive. Prepare as best you can, enjoy life, and if the SHTF, try not to die. [wink]
 
JohnM said:
You can buy 10+ acres of woodland in bumf*ck, Maine for $5,000 or less. Do that now, then you have somewhere to go. [wink]
Click to expand...

Actually it costs quite a bit more than that these days, despite the economy. And, the cheapest land you can find that may initially seem tempting due to price will have no road to it and no right of way through other property, and will have been logged recently. If there is any semblance of a road, it won't be town maintained, impassable in summer by anything less than a pickup truck, and impassable in winter except by snowmobile.

As you pay more money, your options go up and you can get things like streams, passable dirt roads and maybe even electricity at the street. Then you're talking real money, not just an easy to decide $5000.

And that's the easy part. Then, you gotta figure out what you'll do with it in a way that actually works out for you. I would not want to leave a well supplied cabin all by itself, waiting for me to drive to it after SHTF. So it would need to be buried, and done in such a way that people wandering through (and they do wander through in Maine) won't notice anything interesting. And somehow you have to do that building without attracting the attention of the locals... pretty much impossible unless you do everything yourself and it is so remote that no one ever sees you coming or going. Then there are all the tracks you will have left from the heavy machinery.

Let's just say it gets complicated and expensive.

I'll be staying put for now. I hope it works out.
 
Prepper said:
Actually it costs quite a bit more than that these days, despite the economy. And, the cheapest land you can find that may initially seem tempting due to price will have no road to it and no right of way through other property, and will have been logged recently. If there is any semblance of a road, it won't be town maintained, impassable in summer by anything less than a pickup truck, and impassable in winter except by snowmobile.

As you pay more money, your options go up and you can get things like streams, passable dirt roads and maybe even electricity at the street. Then you're talking real money, not just an easy to decide $5000.

And that's the easy part. Then, you gotta figure out what you'll do with it in a way that actually works out for you. I would not want to leave a well supplied cabin all by itself, waiting for me to drive to it after SHTF. So it would need to be buried, and done in such a way that people wandering through (and they do wander through in Maine) won't notice anything interesting. And somehow you have to do that building without attracting the attention of the locals... pretty much impossible unless you do everything yourself and it is so remote that no one ever sees you coming or going. Then there are all the tracks you will have left from the heavy machinery.

Let's just say it gets complicated and expensive.

I'll be staying put for now. I hope it works out.
Click to expand...

All true and well thought out. I was being a little flippant, you're right, it's not just a matter of buying some raw land. I have an advantage in that my family goes back 7 generations in Maine and I have a network of extended family/friends in very remote parts of the state and I already own land up there. Where and what's on/in it would not be smart to broadcast, obviously. It's not set up anywhere close to what/how I want it, but whatever, it is what it is. The hard/possibly impossible part would be getting there from RI if the SHTF.

My first choice would be to stay put. But I'm in Maine every other weekend anyhow, it would be completely ridiculous for me to be IN Maine if and when the SHTF and I have to struggle back to a more urban, less protected home in RI.

Ideally I would like to live in very rural Maine, but it's just not feasible at this point in time.

My basic prep/survival philosophy is to do what you can and that something is better than nothing. Just like if I were to end up in a gun fight, I'd rather have an AR, if not, a 1911, if not, a 9mm, if not, a .380, if not, a good knife, if not, a very good stick. Worst case would be bare handed. Same with prep stuff. I'd rather live in a castle on a hill with 100 years worth of food and my own private army. But if not...
 
Prepper said:
Actually it costs quite a bit more than that these days, despite the economy. And, the cheapest land you can find that may initially seem tempting due to price will have no road to it and no right of way through other property, and will have been logged recently. If there is any semblance of a road, it won't be town maintained, impassable in summer by anything less than a pickup truck, and impassable in winter except by snowmobile.
Click to expand...

And not to belabor the point, but you can find raw land in northern Maine for $500/acre that has plenty of road frontage. The problem is that it is most often parceled out in 50+ acre chunks.

You're correct that the road frontage would require a 4x4 in Spring, Summer, Fall and you'd need a snowmobile to travel in winter (which lasts 5 months [wink]).
 
richc said:
I'm heading to Canada. We have a cottage and 70 acres of forest, fields, ponds and streams. The ocean is across the street. A fishing village is within walking distance. Deer wander across the front lawn. Fresh water is bountiful. The woods are full of apple trees and blueberry bushes. We can heat the house with wood, although we do need electricity for the hot air circulation system.

Yup... I'm heading to Canada...
Click to expand...

The problem with Canada is no RKBA. It looks like you might away with a couple of hunting rifles, shotguns and maybe a pistol, but your grandfather's Luger, the "black" rifles, etc. aren't going with you.

I like the Northern Maine thoughts, but then its also a full time commitment. Assuming your stocked cabin is going to unmolested is shortsighted as someone pointed out.

Just to clarify for the sit tight crowd, my "what if" scenario was the increasing common situation where YOU are among the jobless and YOUR home was foreclosed and unemployment has run out. What now? Sheer willpower doesn't necessarily get you a job.

Sitting tight is working for me right now, none of that applies to me (yet!). But living in Little Rio (Metrowest) WITH a job and a house is a lot different from living here with neither.

I'm starting to get nervous for us. (us the people, not us/me).
 
namedpipes said:
The problem with Canada is no RKBA. It looks like you might away with a couple of hunting rifles, shotguns and maybe a pistol, but your grandfather's Luger, the "black" rifles, etc. aren't going with you.
Click to expand...

Oh, and you did apply for, and obtain your PAL (Possession and Acquisition License). You also registered all your guns with the Canadian government too, right ? That was mandatory several years back.
Since I don't have a PAL, they charge me $25 every year, just to be able to bring 1 rifle up for hunting season and that 'permit' only lasts 90 days !
 
SteelShooter said:
I bought 100 acres in northern NH recently, that's where I will be.
Click to expand...

That must have cost quite a bit. I had been doing searches up there but large chunks of land were quite expensive (at least compared to northern Maine - but I'd rather be in northern NH than northern ME).
 
Prepper said:
That must have cost quite a bit. I had been doing searches up there but large chunks of land were quite expensive (at least compared to northern Maine - but I'd rather be in northern NH than northern ME).
Click to expand...

Less than $500K but more than $100K.
 

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