What do you consider a good group at about 30'?

[Supermoto]

Most people are painfully unaware of themselves, their actions and movements, and how they affect what they do and how they do it. Basically incapable of self analysis. So outside input is necessary even for the most basic analysis. If you focus and have a halfway decent sense of time you don't need a beep and timer to know if you are doing better. You may not know your times, but better and worse should be easy to determine.

This is not true at all. You might think you are fast because of all the movement you have done in a given time, but it is the wasted movement that makes you feel fast. Efficient movement is fast, but efficient movement does not feel fast. It's the old saying, Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. It's because efficient feels slow. Without training with a timer, you are only guessing that you are doing better.

Also, you aren't reacting to an outside stimulus. You are drawing when you are mentally ready to drawing. You are not reacting

 

[roccoracer]

Lots of excellent advice and shooting in this thread. I tried a new .22 revolver at the range last week. Here is my group at 10 yards.

 

[x-frog-22]

I pistol shoot like I bowl ,in the other alley................................ no not really I bowl in my alley

 

[E.Stoner]

In the past three weeks, I've been working on Chuck Pressburgs "no fail" standard which is 10 shots on a B-8 target at 25 yards. Passing is keeping all shots in the black. The full drill is drawing from the holster and doing single shots with a par time of 3.5 seconds. My indoor range is only 50 ft so I have made B-8s that are scaled by MOA to 50ft.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L8TNhE3Lac&feature=emb_logo

 

[42!]

This is not true at all. You might think you are fast because of all the movement you have done in a given time, but it is the wasted movement that makes you feel fast. Efficient movement is fast, but efficient movement does not feel fast. It's the old saying, Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. It's because efficient feels slow. Without training with a timer, you are only guessing that you are doing better.

Also, you aren't reacting to an outside stimulus. You are drawing when you are mentally ready to drawing. You are not reacting

You say not true at all then go on about aspects that can only be determined through self awareness/analysis, so it is true.... which is it.
And who said I was determining when to draw, I've posted elsewhere about the routine I practiced for years, decades, and it typically included another person determining when to draw, it could be seconds, it could be minutes, it really depended on how much of an @ss he wanted to be that day. Same deal with the number of round he put in my mag, reloads should not be practiced as something predictable.

And please, economy of motion is an age old concept, and it doesn't take a beep box to figure it out. Unless you truly can't self evaluate your movements, and lack awareness of self. Do some research, most people, maybe all, need to learn to be self aware of the details of their movement, and then you need to learn to be self analytical, and self critical. These things are not all that natural. I'm naturally analytical, but had to learn how to apply it to myself. I can see how a beep and timer might help, short term, it may even be easier than learning how to analyzer yourself, and less of a shock to your ego because it's the timer being critical not yourself. But long term and across a broader spectrum of activities, learning to be more aware of yourself is a better investment.

One thing you learn when you figure out how to really look, is there are no absolutes outside of physical laws, so you should never say something is absolute, because it is impossible for you to know with 100% certainty what someone else is thinking, how they will react, or what they are capable of. For example "not true at all" would require you to be 100% aware of the capabilities of every human who has ever existed, and I'm finding that hard to believe. You found the use of a timer helpful, OK. I don't agree. I wish I could have met you before my health issue started taking away what I worked long and hard to accomplish, but unfortunately I can't shoot as well now as I could 15 years ago.

 

[Supermoto]

Humans have tools to measure everything. Length, weight, time..etc.

If you have never trained with a timer, then you aren't an analyzer, you are a guesser. It is that simple. You cannot tell me the time of your draw with 100% accuracy, you can only guess what it is. You might be able to tell me if one draw felt faster, but exactly how much, nope.

 

[E.Stoner]

Humans have tools to measure everything. Length, weight, time..etc.

If you have never trained with a timer, then you aren't an analyzer, you are a guesser. It is that simple. You cannot tell me the time of your draw with 100% accuracy, you can only guess what it is. You might be able to tell me if one draw felt faster, but exactly how much, nope.

Agree.

A timer simply another way to measure performance metrics but also a means to impose time pressure and an element of stress in training.
It's an undeniably useful tool.

 

[42!]

Humans have tools to measure everything. Length, weight, time..etc.

If you have never trained with a timer, then you aren't an analyzer, you are a guesser. It is that simple. You cannot tell me the time of your draw with 100% accuracy, you can only guess what it is. You might be able to tell me if one draw felt faster, but exactly how much, nope.

I’m not trying to determine the exact time, that’s for competition and bragging. And your inability to look at and analyze yourself is your problem not mine, don’t attribute your shortcomings to others.

 

[Jarcese]

While we're critiquing groups, how horrible is mine at 25 yards? 5 shot groups with VP9 and red dot.

 

[42!]

While we're critiquing groups, how horrible is mine at 25 yards? 5 shot groups with VP9 and red dot.

But think how you’re making others feel better, that’s worth something

focus on fundamentals, slow down your rate of fire until the group tightens up and practice practice practice
And most self defense is shorter range anyway

 

[Jarcese]

But think how you’re making others feel better, that’s worth something

focus on fundamentals, slow down your rate of fire until the group tightens up and practice practice practice
And most self defense is shorter range anyway

That was slow haha. I'm trying to shoot 5 mags slow, write down my issues and the date on the target. Trying to do it at least once a week to work on 25 yard shooting. I'll try to post weekly to be mocked lovingly.

 

[Matt_SERE]

If you have never trained with a timer, then you aren't an analyzer, you are a guesser.

It's a bitch using my sundial inside or on a cloudy day!

 

[Supermoto]

I’m not trying to determine the exact time, that’s for competition and bragging. And your inability to look at and analyze yourself is your problem not mine, don’t attribute your shortcomings to others.

Ok, enjoy your shooting based on feelings and not facts. We can call it the non-rapid, perceived grandeur drill. Pincus is a non timer guy, bet he has a much cooler name for it

 

[42!]

That was slow haha. I'm trying to shoot 5 mags slow, write down my issues and the date on the target. Trying to do it at least once a week to work on 25 yard shooting. I'll try to post weekly to be mocked lovingly.

I hope you don't mind my making a few suggestion. If you're working on slow fire, cut down to 5 shot groups, focus on grip, stance, breathing and trigger pull. This is what I'm referring to when I say fundamentals. Training helps but don't be afraid to say something doesn't feel right and try something different, everyone is different. But clearly establish the before and after so you can objectively compare. And do you wear glasses/contacts? One thing that snuck up on me as I got older was picking out the front sight. I have glasses for distance and reading now, and neither helps with shooting. Short range defensive shooting it's not a big deal, accuracy at 25yrds it was causing issues. A prescription for shooting helped a lot, lets you focus on fundamentals. @Idoktr is the goto guy for a shooting prescription, may not apply to you but it may.

May also want to look at the gun. While normally a carpenter blaming his tools is BS, there are limits. If the gun is inaccurate nothing you do is going to help. And grip fit is critical. Despite how great a Glock is, just ask a Glock owner, they just didn't fit me, it wasn't til the VP9 that I found a polymer gun that really fit well, and I could see the difference when I shot them side by side. Some people swear by a 1911 style grip, I don't, the point is try different styles.

Get you hands on a bunch of guns, rent borrow, whatever. do a few groups of 5 from each. You may find a couple where your shooting is just better, then you can focus on turning it into a single ragged hole.

 

[fencer]

While we're critiquing groups, how horrible is mine at 25 yards? 5 shot groups with VP9 and red dot.

I will be the first to admit that I am not an expert, but if I had to venture a guess, I would say you need to work on trigger pull and grip. Mostly trigger pull. Most people don't realize how much they move the muzzle around when pressing the trigger. VP9 has a decent trigger and is pretty mild in terms of recoil.
I have posted this before, but it seems applicable. Years ago, Adam from Acme Armament gave me a cool tip. He told me to balance a coin on the top of the barrel on a double action revolver and practice dry firing without the coin falling off. It takes a lot of practice, but I did it constantly with my 4" 686 over a long weekend. It drove my wife crazy. I also realized how hard it is to simply hold your hand steady in front of you for long periods of time. But it really improved my trigger press.
I have to really focus on consistent trigger work when shooting fast. Guys that compete regularly with any level of success do it so often and their muscle memory is so developed that they no longer have to think about it.

I would also suggest you cut the distance in half or more until you are happy with your groups, then slowly increase distance. And while there are certainly some scenarios that you might have to engage a target 75 feet away with a pistol, if I had the option, I'd be grabbing a lever gun if i could.

 

[Jarcese]

I will be the first to admit that I am not an expert...

I appreciate the tips from you fellows. I actually wrote "trigger pull" on the back of that target. I'm going to try the coin balance technique. I tried it using a casing the other day and couldn't do it. That was my first attempt at 25 yards ever with a pistol red dot. In the real world I would be shooting an AR at that distance. I want to work on 25 yard pistol because it magnifies my problems.

 

[Supermoto]

I appreciate the tips from you fellows. I actually wrote "trigger pull" on the back of that target. I'm going to try the coin balance technique. I tried it using a casing the other day and couldn't do it. That was my first attempt at 25 yards ever with a pistol red dot. In the real world I would be shooting an AR at that distance. I want to work on 25 yard pistol because it magnifies my problems.

Distance does magnify issues, but if you don't know what those issues are, you aren't going to solve them. When you can shoot a nice tight group in close, then start moving out slowly. Its tempting to ty to make big jumps in distance, but it can be a waste of time and ammo

 

[glockforlife]

Suggest they try IDPA. It is truly humbling.

Couldn't agree more! Best thing I ever did to improve my shooting.

 

[allen-1]

 

[fencer]

That's my favorite target! Paper plate!
About a penny a piece and the shots show up nicely. Yeah, I will spring for the splatter targets, especially when taking a newb to the range, but when it's just me? Why?

 

[mac1911]

Back in the day when I used to practice much more and my vision was a bit better I would one hole x ring the 7 yard quick reaction drills, 10 ring all shots at 15 and only drop a few at 25 on the USMC pistol qual course. 393 was my best score.

Do you remember the distance and target sizes?

 

[mac1911]

While we're critiquing groups, how horrible is mine at 25 yards? 5 shot groups with VP9 and red dot.

Have you tried shooting with the iron sights? Center up that group a bit and work on the vertical dispersement some
12” at 25 yds is 46 moa-ish

If this is what your groups usually look like tou need to figure out if something your doing is causing your shots to favor the left or adjust your red dot to center up that group. I think you did better than many,

 

[allen-1]

Distance does magnify issues, but if you don't know what those issues are, you aren't going to solve them. When you can shoot a nice tight group in close, then start moving out slowly. Its tempting to ty to make big jumps in distance, but it can be a waste of time and ammo

Yup.

Put a mark in the center of a paper plate. Shoot 5 shots or so from 3 yards.
Replace the plate each grouping so you know what your group looks like; (paper plates are cheap).
When you have a nice consistent group, back up a yard. When your group starts falling apart, move forward and work on it.

When you're satisfied with your fundamentals of directing the shot where you want it to go, add drawing from a holster to it.
Then add a timer to it.
"metrics"; "qualitative data".

Look up "dot torture". I shoot it once a week or so. And curse afterwards.

 

[eboos]

Do you remember the distance and target sizes?

The distance was as stated in my post. The target I think was a NRA B8 target.

 

[allen-1]

I mentioned "dot torture" in an earlier post. I shoot it about every week or so, and tell myself I ought to shoot it more frequently.

The lower pic is from yesterday afternoon. I took a couple extra shots with my weak hand, i wasn't happy with the first shots outside of the circle at 5:00.

I shoot this from 5 yards, I'd like to shoot it from 7 yards, but I think I'll fail abysmally - too many outside of the rings now at 5 yards.