There should not be ANY mandatory requirement for ANY constitutional right.
Yes indeed.
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There should not be ANY mandatory requirement for ANY constitutional right.
If your not a PP, you should be handed a license without delay. .To get your drivers license you have to drive a real car I see why you have to shoot a real gun to get your LTC.
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I'm from Weymouth I had no problem getting my LTC with live fire. (Have to submit a target with date and initials of instructor)
If you take your live fire with a .22 semi-auto, that's all you should be allowed to own.
While I happen to agree that any basic training courses for LTC purposes should include live fire, Weymouth is on doubtful ground legally.
The statute requiring pre-license training authorizes the Colonel of the State Police to promulgate regulations governing such training. G.L. ch. 140, sec. 131P.
The governing regulations are at 515 C.M.R. sec. 3.00 et seq.
As for LTC training:
"The following BFS courses, with fulfillment of 515 CMR 3.05(2)(b) requirements as applicable, meet the Department of State Police's criteria for obtaining a LTC and are approved: . . .
(b) NRA Basic Pistol Course, NRA Personal Protection Course or NRA Home Safety Course . . . .". 515 C.M.R. sec. 3.05(b)(4)(b).
The Home Firearms Safety Course explicitly does not include live fire.
If your not IN JAIL, you should not have your rights infringed without delay
If your not a PP, you should be handed a license without delay. .
If your not a PP, you should be handed a license without delay. .
Personally I can't understand why an instructor wouldn't want to do a live fire portion in their class, why would anyone intentionally sign off on someone so ill prepared? I know if I were an instructor it wouldn't feel right for me to give someone the responsibility of a LTC without giving them some trigger time with various calibers, I'd feel I'd be doing them a disservice. Aside from that it would help them to decide which type of pistol and which caliber would suit them best and it might just encourage them to become more active once they get passed beginners jitters.
I know more than a few s-heads who have had their CCW permits for quite some time who have never even loaded their pistols let alone ever fired off a few rounds, and others that carry everyday and have never visited a range. Are these the types of folks you would want around your families popping off shots if something ever happened?
Now whether or not a town should require it is another matter. I just wouldn't give the town the option to refuse a student for it, strip away as many reasons and make it as difficult as possible for them to deny anyone.
JMO.
Personally I can't understand why an instructor wouldn't want to do a live fire portion in their class, why would anyone intentionally sign off on someone so ill prepared? I know if I were an instructor it wouldn't feel right for me to give someone the responsibility of a LTC without giving them some trigger time with various calibers, I'd feel I'd be doing them a disservice. Aside from that it would help them to decide which type of pistol and which caliber would suit them best and it might just encourage them to become more active once they get passed beginners jitters.
I know more than a few s-heads who have had their CCW permits for quite some time who have never even loaded their pistols let alone ever fired off a few rounds, and others that carry everyday and have never visited a range. Are these the types of folks you would want around your families popping off shots if something ever happened?
Now whether or not a town should require it is another matter. I just wouldn't give the town the option to refuse a student for it, strip away as many reasons and make it as difficult as possible for them to deny anyone.
JMO.
Personally I can't understand why an instructor wouldn't want to do a live fire portion in their class, why would anyone intentionally sign off on someone so ill prepared? I know if I were an instructor it wouldn't feel right for me to give someone the responsibility of a LTC without giving them some trigger time with various calibers, I'd feel I'd be doing them a disservice. Aside from that it would help them to decide which type of pistol and which caliber would suit them best and it might just encourage them to become more active once they get passed beginners jitters.
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If Jerry Miculek were to lose his mind and move to MA, he would have to take a firearm safety course in order to get an LTC. Now there is nothing I could teach Jerry about shooting or safety. But you would advocate that I try.
I have had more than a few students who, while not being such an extreme example, only needed the course because they needed the piece of paper. For them, the shorter and cheaper the course the better.
While I am all in favor of training, I am absolutely not in favor of mandatory training before you can exercise a right guaranteed in the Constitution.
Let me shock you . . . From the first landing of Pilgrims on this continent until 1998, there was NO requirement for any training in order to buy/own/shoot any guns in MA. The streets weren't red with blood.
BASIC courses are not designed to train people to CCW or to make them good shooters, the courses strictly instill some safety awareness no matter how "comprehensive" the instructor tries to make them. You are NOT "giving them the responsibility" to do anything as an instructor. If you want them to work with various calibers (and all the NRA basic courses say .22LR ONLY) it drives up the cost significantly and someone has to pay that. People are looking for groupons thus looking for cheap, you oftentimes get what you pay for and nobody can afford to teach a class for $20-35 (groupon takes a huge chunk of that money) and give you $20-45 in ammo for the privilege. A buddy of mine was offering one of the courses with extensive shooting various calibers, he calculated that he used average $47.00 worth of ammo (and these were Qmmo ammo prices not retail) per student and charging $50 for the shooting portion added to a course that doesn't require shooting . . . and he had to pay another $10/person to the gun club to use their facilities. That isn't a good business model and unless you have a fortune you are trying to spend down, it's not good for longevity.
When I moved to MA, I needed to get my LTC pretty quick because I refused to leave any of my guns home in CT except those that were waiting on 5320s. I found myself in a catch 22. I am certified to teach NRA Basic Pistol, which is an acceptable course for a LTC. I initially thought I'd just make up a certificate for myself but soon realized that wouldn't work. Per MA law, you must receive the approved course from someone who himself holds a MA LTC. So i was stuck.
I was in the process of calling instructors offering to co-teach a class for free if they would give me a certificate when the Universe shifted and sanity prevailed. My licensing officer allowed me to submit my teaching credentials as proof of training.
So to get back to your original point. If JM moved to a decent town, he'd be fine. If he moved to the wrong town, he might get a restricted LTC with an offer to upgrade to unrestricted if he shows good judgement for 5 years.
In my class, I tell students that they will NOT know enough to carry a firearm safely. I briefly review what they WON'T be taught in that class.
1) carry gun selection and compromises between caliber, weight, shootability, and accuracy.
2) Holster draw (its not like in the movies)
3) legal aspects of armed self defense.
4) legal aspects as far as your requirment to conceal
5) choosing a method of carry. iwb, owb, retention, pocket
6) holster selection to support that method,
7) use of cover/concealment
8) the difference between cover and concealment
8) reloading under pressure
9) shooting on the move
10 one handed shooting
11) weak hand shooting
12) understanding and practicing the tradeoff between speed and accuracy.
What I do tell them that they will have the skills to do is possibly defend their home from a safe room. I'm not talking about clearing rooms. I'm talking about gathering the family into a defensible location and pointing a gun at the door while you wait for the cavalry to arrive.
Don
My kids took the Hunter's Ed class to get their certificate - they had been shooting for a while at that point so they just needed to comply with a ridiculous rule."Suitability" is a separate issue allowing them to hang their hats on that, and the case that Atty Karen MacNutt lost many years ago is what give them the guts to invoke such "requirements".
Many PDs also refuse Hunter Ed Certs, even though MGL specifically allows that as an option. Having taken a terrible Hunter Ed course a few years ago, I really understand their rationale for doing so and personally agree that most of the Hunter Ed courses out there are severely lacking!
Revisiting this thread. Who's responsibility is it to find out if the town where the LTC will be applied for, requires live fire? Should this be wholly on the student to do the research on what the requirements are? Or should the instructor research this, if they don't offer live fire? Or at least mention it to a potential student when they call to register for the class that they don't offer live fire and that some towns require it. If you go to Mass.gov it doesn't mention needing live fire but it does tell you to contact your local PD for specific information on the application process. My thought is that the student should do the research prior to taking the class, but, we recently had a student come to us for live fire after taking a course with an instructor, without live fire, in a town that required it and I would think the instructor was aware of this. Thoughts?
So let me ask this. If I take a student who has completed the firearms safety class to the range. Go through a few drills and have them shoot etc. does that then qualify as live fire? I generally do it for people who don’t own a firearm and want to try a few etc. just wondering if it’s not worth it to just do it on a regular basis.
It's the student's responsibility. Period.
When I participate in running a course, either NRA or Hunter Ed, I have no idea where a student will be applying.
Some towns do not accept HE as valid for FID/LTC, despite it being OK per MGL. Should I make sure that each and every person in the class will not be stymied when they go to John Law's house?
You asked for thoughts; those are mine.
I agree with Mr. Happy. Responsibility is on the student to know the requirements for his/her town.
Wouldn't it would be up to the LO if they would accept you certifying that the student satisfied their requirement?
Ask that and they will start making up range rules for all instructors to follow.No sure but that sounds reasonable. I guess the best thing would be to have the parameters under which the live fire needs to occur. For example so many rounds t so many yards and some max grouping?
No, but you could explain enough about MA gun laws to convince him to turn around and go back.If Jerry Miculek were to lose his mind and move to MA, he would have to take a firearm safety course in order to get an LTC. Now there is nothing I could teach Jerry about shooting or safety. But you would advocate that I try.