Western MA gun shop owner in trouble

Pat is a personal friend of mine who without his generosity I would not have the collection I have. He has done more for veterans in the Pittsfield area than anyone I have ever met and he sponsored me and paid for an expensive deer hunting trip to Maine. I will reserve judgment and see what happens with the case.

Have a fine Navy day.
 
The newspapers usually just repeat or take most of their story from the police report. As a victim of an action by police, I can tell you firsthand that what is in a police report and what is fact are VERY VERY different things.

In my case, things that did not happen at all were in the report, the order of things that actually happened were out of order which changes the meaning of the events and EVERY single thing that actually happened that was favorable to me was not in there in the least. Prior to my firsthand experience, I was inclined to believe the "facts" made public for an arrest, indictment, etc. Never again. It was a very informative process for me, I will never again trust what cops or DA's say unless I have information other than theirs. They lie with ease.

How true this is! Years ago I was run over by a guy who was making a left turn into a bar. 4 bones in my left foot were broken when my foot was crushed between the primary cover and the bumper of his Oldsmobile.

What did the newspaper say? They quoted the police report and printed only what the douche who ran me over told the police (I was at the Hospital): I didn't have my headlight on and the driver claimed he didn't see me.

The fact that he was travelling from Bar A to Bar B was never mentioned.
 
Pretty sure we have all made terrible decisions at some point. Too bad this guy made some crap calls and now will pay dearly for it. Sucks for sure but I wont be throwing the first stone.
 
The bartender grabbed King's wrist after King allegedly reached for the gun, police said.

.....

Article: During a brief struggle in which the bartender repeatedly told King to let go of the weapon,...

If someone lacking any authority, other than that they bestowed upon themselves, grabs my wrist (assault), or tries to take my gun, there will be a struggle. I am not going to assume that I need to surrender my weapon to this person, who I do not know, who is not a police officer, and whose intentions I know nothing about,.

I can be fairly confident, however, that struggle would not be taking place in a bar.

This is not the same situation as a police officer taking custody of a weapon during an investigation, but one non-LEO taking it upon himself to use force to disarm another non-LEO. Said force is only justified if it can be shown that the armed individual is acting in a threatening manner, as private citizens cannot engage in preemptive self defense. This sounds somewhat similar to that recent case where one Walmart shopper took it upon himself to disarm another (properly licensed) Walmart shopper in Florida.
 
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If someone lacking any authority, other than that they bestowed upon themselves, grabs my wrist (assault), or tries to take my gun, there will be a struggle. I am not going to assume that I need to surrender my weapon to this person, who I do not know, who is not a police officer, and whose intentions I know nothing about,.

I can be fairly confident, however, that struggle would not be taking place in a bar.

This is not the same situation as a police officer taking custody of a weapon during an investigation, but one non-LEO taking it upon himself to use force to disarm another non-LEO. Said force is only justified if it can be shown that the armed individual is acting in a threatening manner, as private citizens cannot engage in preemptive self defense. This sounds somewhat similar to that recent case where one Walmart shopper took it upon himself to disarm another (properly licensed) Walmart shopper in Florida.

The bartender grabbed King's wrist after King allegedly reached for the gun, police said.

Sounds like the bartender is reading the guys mind. How would he know if he were reaching for the weapon or scratching an itch. I don't see where they can justify the assault with a deadly weapon charge. Bragging you have a gun and someone seeing it doesn't get you there. From the article, Pat could likely have a case for theft and battery against the bartender.

For the charge of carrying while intoxicated, again where is the evidence? He may have had some drinks but how can they prove he was intoxicated? He refused tests, I doubt there was a forced blood alcohol test, etc. He didn't fail any tests, all they have is slurred words, glassy eyes and smelled like alcohol. He was tired, his allergies were bothering him and he had 2 drinks.

If he gets a good lawyer, it will cost him money but he should be exonerated.
 
Sounds like the bartender is reading the guys mind. How would he know if he were reaching for the weapon or scratching an itch. I don't see where they can justify the assault with a deadly weapon charge. Bragging you have a gun and someone seeing it doesn't get you there. From the article, Pat could likely have a case for theft and battery against the bartender.

For the charge of carrying while intoxicated, again where is the evidence? He may have had some drinks but how can they prove he was intoxicated? He refused tests, I doubt there was a forced blood alcohol test, etc. He didn't fail any tests, all they have is slurred words, glassy eyes and smelled like alcohol. He was tired, his allergies were bothering him and he had 2 drinks.

If he gets a good lawyer, it will cost him money but he should be exonerated.

Unfortunately, it may cost him his shop to do so [thinking]
 
If he gets a good lawyer, it will cost him money but he should be exonerated.
Remember, in MA the fact that he refused a BAC cannot be used against him at trial, or even mentioned to the jury. But, unlike OUI, there is no legal definition of what "under the influence" means on a CUI charge.
 
Who the hell is Pats Gun Shop?

That kinda explains it all, never heard of this place.

Of course the NES teetotaler crew will be in shortly to tell us "this is what happens when you drink and carry" or some bullshit. I'm waiting for the vuvuzela-like blaring noise.

See Also:

View attachment 126822




-Mike

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Shoot! I kinda liked the gal on the bottom left. [frown]
 
If someone lacking any authority, other than that they bestowed upon themselves, grabs my wrist (assault), or tries to take my gun, there will be a struggle. I am not going to assume that I need to surrender my weapon to this person, who I do not know, who is not a police officer, and whose intentions I know nothing about,.

I can be fairly confident, however, that struggle would not be taking place in a bar.

This is not the same situation as a police officer taking custody of a weapon during an investigation, but one non-LEO taking it upon himself to use force to disarm another non-LEO. Said force is only justified if it can be shown that the armed individual is acting in a threatening manner, as private citizens cannot engage in preemptive self defense. This sounds somewhat similar to that recent case where one Walmart shopper took it upon himself to disarm another (properly licensed) Walmart shopper in Florida.

emphasizing the us vs them......
 
So is the bartender getting into any trouble for serving someone who appears all ready intoxicated? Is that not also one of those 15 million laws on the books?
 
emphasizing the us vs them......

Cmon man, somehow, even tho there werent any cops involved (at that point anyways), there has to be some sort of
Us VS Them, just because. And of course, mention of the irrelevant refusal of the breathalyzer test being non admissable to the jury, even tho this isnt an OUI case.
 
If someone lacking any authority, other than that they bestowed upon themselves, grabs my wrist (assault), or tries to take my gun, there will be a struggle. I am not going to assume that I need to surrender my weapon to this person, who I do not know, who is not a police officer, and whose intentions I know nothing about,.

I can be fairly confident, however, that struggle would not be taking place in a bar.

This is not the same situation as a police officer taking custody of a weapon during an investigation, but one non-LEO taking it upon himself to use force to disarm another non-LEO. Said force is only justified if it can be shown that the armed individual is acting in a threatening manner, as private citizens cannot engage in preemptive self defense. This sounds somewhat similar to that recent case where one Walmart shopper took it upon himself to disarm another (properly licensed) Walmart shopper in Florida.

The grabbing of the wrists is a battery, not an assault.
A citizen can certainly act upon a felony (I dont recomend it but you can), my guess is that the bartender thought he/she was doing just that by securing his gun behind the bar. !ike everything else, it comes down to what you can articulate (sell) to the investigating body.
 
The grabbing of the wrists is a battery, not an assault.
A citizen can certainly act upon a felony (I don't recommend it but you can), my guess is that the bartender thought he/she was doing just that by securing his gun behind the bar. like everything else, it comes down to what you can articulate (sell) to the investigating body.
From the bar owner's Facebook page (for what it's worth): https://www.facebook.com/pages/Crystal-Hardhat-Saloon/132701270231174?rf=211029712241493

"As the owner of the Crystal Hard Hat, before rumors get into the air, I would like to inform everyone of what really happen at the Crystal Hard Hat last night/early morning around 12:30am. A man named Pat King, who has never been in the Crystal before, came in to have a drink. He parked his truck on the side walk so Heath, who was bar tending at the time, asked him respectfully to move his vehicle into a parking spot. The man then lifted his shirt and showed a gun to a bunch of women who were sitting at the bar. They told Heath that he had a gun. At which time Heath told the man that he needed to leave and take the gun out of the bar. The man then threatened to shoot the patrons at the bar if he was refused another drink. Heath went around the bar as the man had his hand on the pistol. Heath then reached over and locked the mans arm to proceed and take the gun away from him; the gun was never drawn I repeat no one was hurt just a little frightened. The police were called immediately at which time I walked in took the mans gun and handed it to the police officers outside and threw the man outside as well. The police officers then proceeded to arrest him. I'd like to thank all my patrons that were here & helped; we do not wish any harm to any of our patrons that come to the Crystal and the staff and I do our best to make sure no harm does come to them. Again this could have happened anywhere and to anybody. This guy was not known to the Crystal Hard Hat and no weapons will be tolerated at the Crystal! We would sincerely like to thank everybody and let you know you are safe here. Todd Hebert"
 

At face value (even tho there are several sentences that really dont make sense), it would seem that Heath, our fearless bartender, was justified when he put his hands on Mr. King, and attempted to secure Mr. Kings firearm. Mr. Hebert on the other hand, after procuring Mr Kings firearm and presenting it to the police outside, then threw Mr. King out of the bar. Id love to have seen how that went down; I imagine Mr. Hebert must wear a cape, and can fly. But thats just me.
 
Is pats gun shop the one out in the north east corner of MA? Think I went there once as a teenager with my dad while hunting.
 
Regardless of what happened at that little bar, it is pretty clear that there is something going on with this guy that goes far deeper than this incident.

I don't know what led up to this event, and I am glad that it did not end in a tragedy, but whatever happens, I hope this guy is OK.

Sounds like he may have snapped or maybe been sliding down a slippery slope for a while. It sucks. Good Luck Pat.
 
my favorite line from Toddy "This guy was not known to the Crystal Hard Hat and no weapons will be tolerated at the Crystal!"

bold face are mine
 
Massachusetts does not recognize battery as a separate crime. One can be charged with assault or one can be charged with assault and battery, so in Mass, the grabbing of the wrists constitutes the crime of assault and battery.

Im aware, I was merely pointing out that it was a battery, not an assault. Criminal charges werent being discussed.
 
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