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Western MA gun shop owner in trouble

Who the hell is Pats Gun Shop?

That kinda explains it all, never heard of this place.

Of course the NES teetotaler crew will be in shortly to tell us "this is what happens when you drink and carry" or some bullshit. I'm waiting for the vuvuzela-like blaring noise.

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-Mike

- - - Updated - - -

mark056 said:
PSGWSP alcohol fueled and perhaps a tad of early onset dementia too?
Click to expand...

Prolly depression, too. I would be pretty depressed if I owned a gun shop that nobody had ever heard of.

-Mike
 
"When the bartender saw the gun, he went around the bar, approached King and told him to leave because weapons weren't allowed in the bar."
It takes some balls to see the gun and remind the drunk that "hey, you can have that here!"
 
I believe that Pats is the place that is only open like 3 days a week but always had a killer selection of reloading supplies. From what I have at least from a few reloaders in my area. Never been there in person.
 
drgrant said:
Of course the NES teetotaler crew will be in shortly to tell us "this is what happens when you drink and carry" or some bullshit. I'm waiting for the vuvuzela-like blaring noise.
Click to expand...

No, I think getting smashed while carrying is great. Not so sure about waving a firearm while threatening to kill everyone in the room though.

"During a brief struggle in which the bartender repeatedly told King to let go of the weapon, King said he would "kill all five of you," referring to the bartender and several nearby bar patrons, according to a North Adams police report."
 
Was there several years back. The owner wasn't there but the female clerk was very good. There were several beautiful vintage firearms and prices were appropriate. Wish I had the cash at the time.
 
mibro said:
No, I think getting smashed while carrying is great. Not so sure about waving a firearm while threatening to kill everyone in the room though.

"During a brief struggle in which the bartender repeatedly told King to let go of the weapon, King said he would "kill all five of you," referring to the bartender and several nearby bar patrons, according to a North Adams police report."
Click to expand...

I didn't ignore that part of the article, obviously. I'm just saying that if this thread drags out long enough, some pud is going to be "hurr durr!ing!" on us that he doesn't drink while carrying. [laugh] Of course now that I've said this I hope to be proven wrong. [laugh]

-Mike
 
drgrant said:
attachment.php
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Is that bloomturds 'moms'?
 
I only went into Pat's a couple of times when I was looking for accessories for old stuff. It's full of what looks to be sold-off fudd collections. Not to knock the shop; it just didn't cater to my demographic.

That's a pretty dumb ass move by the owner. I'm not sure much good ever came out of The Hard Hat.
 
drgrant said:
I didn't ignore that part of the article, obviously. I'm just saying that if this thread drags out long enough, some pud is going to be "hurr durr!ing!" on us that he doesn't drink while carrying. [laugh] Of course now that I've said this I hope to be proven wrong. [laugh]

-Mike
Click to expand...

I'm not going to let you down. I don't drink while carrying. [laugh]
 
I'll bet this isn't half of what it's made out to be by the Berkshire Eagle.

What if:

Pat's sitting next to a woman at the bar. She asks what he does. He says he's an FFL and sells guns. She asks if he carries and, (first mistake,) he reveals to her the butt of a gun he has in his holster or pocket.

Article: ... when he displayed a loaded Smith & Wesson .357 revolver to a woman sitting next to him at the bar."

Bartender sees the gun also and walks around the bar. How threatened can he be? Who walks around a bar so a gunman can get a better shot at you?

Article: When the bartender saw the gun, he went around the bar, approached King and told him to leave because weapons weren't allowed in the bar.

Next the article states:
The woman to whom King allegedly displayed the gun became frightened, walked outside and called police.

The bartender grabbed King's wrist after King allegedly reached for the gun, police said.

Transpose those two statements. Did the woman become frightened before or after the bartender grabbed Mr. King's wrist? At the very least it is written that the woman became frightened after the bartender came around the bar, not before.

Why did Mr. King reach for the gun? Did the bartender say, "Let me see the gun. Guns aren't allowed in here." The depositions of the witnesses would help.

BTW. You notice, no one, except the woman, has left the bar yet. There are still a few more people waiting to be killed.

Article: During a brief struggle in which the bartender repeatedly told King to let go of the weapon,...


When two people have their hand on a gun and one is saying, "Let go of the weapon. Let go of the weapon." it's not the struggle I think of when I'm told two people struggled over a gun.

I believe this struggle was the bartender grabbing Mr. King's wrist and asking for the gun and getting it.

Article: The bartender was able to get the gun away from King and put it behind the bar, said police.

The bartender would have kept the gun under his immediate control if he suspected Mr. King was an immediate threat.

Article: ...King said he would "kill all five of you," referring to the bartender and several nearby bar patrons, according to a North Adams police report.

I'd like to know if the patrons sat there drinking there beer while this went down. They didn't leave the bar and call police like the woman did. Perhaps Mr. King said something more along the lines of, "If I were a bad guy with a gun I could have killed all five of you." The difference is, "would," or, "could."


Article: The woman who called police later told investigators King had been bragging about having a gun on him, according to the report.

Any investigator can get someone to embellish. How long had he been bragging? How long had he been bragging before he displayed it?How long did you sit beside this man with the gun before you felt threatened and went outside and called police?


If anyone has been involved with the law you likely know that police reports are rarely accurate.

Is Mr. King in trouble? He sure is.

Could he have kept himself out of trouble? He sure could have.

But he might be in a lot more trouble here in MA than he might have been in a state like MT, A or AK.
 
Last edited:
drgrant said:
Of course the NES teetotaler crew will be in shortly to tell us "this is what happens when you drink and carry" or some bullshit. I'm waiting for the vuvuzela-like blaring noise.
Click to expand...
mibro said:
No, I think getting smashed while carrying is great. Not so sure about waving a firearm while threatening to kill everyone in the room though.

"During a brief struggle in which the bartender repeatedly told King to let go of the weapon, King said he would "kill all five of you," referring to the bartender and several nearby bar patrons, according to a North Adams police report."
Click to expand...

The guy only got half of the stereotype right; he was supposed to be DRIVING drunk then have an argument comparing it to waving his gun around. What do you want, his judgement was impaired. Not his fault.
 
That particular bar attracts an exceptionally scummy clientele. That was only 1 of 2 articles related to it in todays paper [laugh]
 
Jason Flare said:
I'll bet this isn't half of what it's made out to be by the Berkshire Eagle.

What if:

Pat's sitting next to a woman at the bar. She asks what he does. He says he's an FFL and sells guns. She asks if he carries and, (first mistake,) he reveals to her the butt of a gun he has in his holster or pocket.

Article: ... when he displayed a loaded Smith & Wesson .357 revolver to a woman sitting next to him at the bar."

Bartender sees the gun also and walks around the bar. How threatened can he be? Who walks around a bar so a gunman can get a better shot at you?

Article: When the bartender saw the gun, he went around the bar, approached King and told him to leave because weapons weren't allowed in the bar.

Next the article states:
The woman to whom King allegedly displayed the gun became frightened, walked outside and called police.

The bartender grabbed King's wrist after King allegedly reached for the gun, police said.

Transpose those two statements. Did the woman become frightened before or after the bartender grabbed Mr. King's wrist? At the very least it is written that the woman became frightened after the bartender came around the bar, not before.

Why did Mr. King reach for the gun? Did the bartender say, "Let me see the gun. Guns aren't allowed in here." The depositions of the witnesses would help.

BTW. You notice, no one, except the woman, has left the bar yet. There are still a few more people waiting to be killed.

Article: During a brief struggle in which the bartender repeatedly told King to let go of the weapon,...


When two people have their hand on a gun and one is saying, "Let go of the weapon. Let go of the weapon." it's not the struggle I think of when I'm told two people struggled over a gun.

I believe this struggle was the bartender grabbing Mr. King's wrist and asking for the gun and getting it.

Article: The bartender was able to get the gun away from King and put it behind the bar, said police.

The bartender would have kept the gun under his immediate control if he suspected Mr. King was an immediate threat.

Article: ...King said he would "kill all five of you," referring to the bartender and several nearby bar patrons, according to a North Adams police report.

I'd like to know if the patrons sat there drinking there beer while this went down. They didn't leave the bar and call police like the woman did. Perhaps Mr. King said something more along the lines of, "If I were a bad guy with a gun I could have killed all five of you." The difference is, "would," or, "could."


Article: The woman who called police later told investigators King had been bragging about having a gun on him, according to the report.

Any investigator can get someone to embellish. How long had he been bragging? How long had he been bragging before he displayed it?How long did you sit beside this man with the gun before you felt threatened and went outside and called police?


If anyone has been involved with the law you likely know that police reports are rarely accurate.

Is Mr. King in trouble? He sure is.

Could he have kept himself out of trouble? He sure could have.

But he might be in a lot more trouble here in MA than he might have been in a state like MT, A or AK.
Click to expand...

Not only all of that, but does the bartender have an LTC? If not, taking it away from the lawfully licensed Mr. King was probably breaking the law.
 
Regardless of whether the "facts" are as reported or not it was a boneheaded move on his part. Add to that that he is in Mass and he is screwed.
 
drgrant said:
Who the hell is Pats Gun Shop?

That kinda explains it all, never heard of this place.
Click to expand...

Prolly depression, too. I would be pretty depressed if I owned a gun shop that nobody had ever heard of.

-Mike
Click to expand...

Dude, really?

It's a small gun shop in far, FAR western MA. We could practically throw rocks into NY from here. Some do.
 
A couple years ago I was in the market for a youth shotgun for my youngest son. Pat's Gun had a 870 20ga. youth on Gunbroker for cheap money. I bid and won it. I told him I would be by the following weekend, but the wife thought it would be a reason to go to the Lee Outlet Shops and volunteered to pick it up (she has a LTC-A) after shopping. While it was a little hard to find the shop, once there she was found the owner and clerk to be real nice and helpful. She really felt they treated her well. From what she told me they had quite a few nice old guns.
Note I did well on the shotgun, but the outlet shopping canceled that.
 
Last edited:
Jason Flare said:
I'll bet this isn't half of what it's made out to be by the Berkshire Eagle.

What if:

Pat's sitting next to a woman at the bar. She asks what he does. He says he's an FFL and sells guns. She asks if he carries and, (first mistake,) he reveals to her the butt of a gun he has in his holster or pocket.

Article: ... when he displayed a loaded Smith & Wesson .357 revolver to a woman sitting next to him at the bar."

Bartender sees the gun also and walks around the bar. How threatened can he be? Who walks around a bar so a gunman can get a better shot at you?

Article: When the bartender saw the gun, he went around the bar, approached King and told him to leave because weapons weren't allowed in the bar.

Next the article states:
The woman to whom King allegedly displayed the gun became frightened, walked outside and called police.

The bartender grabbed King's wrist after King allegedly reached for the gun, police said.

Transpose those two statements. Did the woman become frightened before or after the bartender grabbed Mr. King's wrist? At the very least it is written that the woman became frightened after the bartender came around the bar, not before.

Why did Mr. King reach for the gun? Did the bartender say, "Let me see the gun. Guns aren't allowed in here." The depositions of the witnesses would help.

BTW. You notice, no one, except the woman, has left the bar yet. There are still a few more people waiting to be killed.

Article: During a brief struggle in which the bartender repeatedly told King to let go of the weapon,...


When two people have their hand on a gun and one is saying, "Let go of the weapon. Let go of the weapon." it's not the struggle I think of when I'm told two people struggled over a gun.

I believe this struggle was the bartender grabbing Mr. King's wrist and asking for the gun and getting it.

Article: The bartender was able to get the gun away from King and put it behind the bar, said police.

The bartender would have kept the gun under his immediate control if he suspected Mr. King was an immediate threat.

Article: ...King said he would "kill all five of you," referring to the bartender and several nearby bar patrons, according to a North Adams police report.

I'd like to know if the patrons sat there drinking there beer while this went down. They didn't leave the bar and call police like the woman did. Perhaps Mr. King said something more along the lines of, "If I were a bad guy with a gun I could have killed all five of you." The difference is, "would," or, "could."


Article: The woman who called police later told investigators King had been bragging about having a gun on him, according to the report.

Any investigator can get someone to embellish. How long had he been bragging? How long had he been bragging before he displayed it?How long did you sit beside this man with the gun before you felt threatened and went outside and called police?


If anyone has been involved with the law you likely know that police reports are rarely accurate.

Is Mr. King in trouble? He sure is.

Could he have kept himself out of trouble? He sure could have.

But he might be in a lot more trouble here in MA than he might have been in a state like MT, A or AK.
Click to expand...


The newspapers usually just repeat or take most of their story from the police report. As a victim of an action by police, I can tell you firsthand that what is in a police report and what is fact are VERY VERY different things.

In my case, things that did not happen at all were in the report, the order of things that actually happened were out of order which changes the meaning of the events and EVERY single thing that actually happened that was favorable to me was not in there in the least. Prior to my firsthand experience, I was inclined to believe the "facts" made public for an arrest, indictment, etc. Never again. It was a very informative process for me, I will never again trust what cops or DA's say unless I have information other than theirs. They lie with ease.
 
pcgod said:
A couple years ago I was in the market for a youth shotgun for my youngest son. Pat's Gun had a 870 20ga. youth on Gunbroker for cheap money. I bid and won it. I told him I would be by the following weekend, but the wife thought it would be a reason to go to the Lee Outlet Shops and volunteered to pick it up (she has a LTC-A) after shopping. While it was a little hard to find the shop, once there she was found the owner and clerk to be real nice and helpful. She really felt they treated her well. From what she told me they had quite a few nice old guns.
Note I did well on the shotgun, but the outlet shopping canceled that.
Click to expand...

eeeeesh strawman purchase
 
Quiet said:
eeeeesh strawman purchase
Click to expand...

He was 9 or so at the time. My wife has shot it, does that count?

Also she paid for it. We both decided it was ok for him, it was simply my Gunbroker Account that bid. How is this a strawman?
 
Last edited:
pcgod said:
He was 9 or so at the time. My wife has shot it, does that count?

Also she paid for it. We both decided it was ok for him, it was simply my Gunbroker Account that bid. How is this a strawman?
Click to expand...

If she paid for it and filled out the paperwork, no foul. It'd be very difficult for the feds to prosecute anyways, regardless... that'd be a new low for the feds.

-Mike
 
You bid and won it, wife went in and paid for it for you. YOU won the auction. You had a contract for that gun at that moment.

In your own description, you phoned the guy (confirming your purchase) then your wife volunteered to "pick it up for you". That is the definition of a straw purchase. The fact that it was ultimately a gift for your son doesn't enter into it at all.

If you had given those words as answer to the ATF about the sale you'd surely be a PP now.

If you hadn't made such a confessional statement, at trial there would likely be legal wrangling about transferability of that contract, over whether perhaps you were bidding for it online for her or if she was paying for it for you and a billion other nuances.
 
Quiet said:
You bid and won it, wife went in and paid for it for you. YOU won the auction. You had a contract for that gun at that moment.

In your own description, you phoned the guy (confirming your purchase) then your wife volunteered to "pick it up for you". That is the definition of a straw purchase. The fact that it was ultimately a gift for your son doesn't enter into it at all.

If you had given those words as answer to the ATF about the sale you'd surely be a PP now.

If you hadn't made such a confessional statement, at trial there would likely be legal wrangling about transferability of that contract, over whether perhaps you were bidding for it online for her or if she was paying for it for you and a billion other nuances.
Click to expand...

Gunbroker account != to a person. Courts have ruled that about other "electronic identities". If his wife paid for it, even using his account, there is no straw purchase.
 

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