Wason Pond, Chester, NH - Guns Allowed (We Win!)

[mikem317]

I noticed signage at Wason Pond in Chester, NH which is off Route 102, that prohibited the carrying of firearms on the premises.

The website mentions that the "discharge" of firearms is prohibited, not the actual carrying/possession of firearms: http://www.chesternh.org/wason_pond.htm.

Question: According to my research this property is owned by the Town of Chester. What's the legal wherewithal of a "no guns allowed" policy on town property in New Hampshire?

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

Signage is not binding in NH. It also says as you stated above "No discharge of firearms", so carrying should not be an issue. IANAL and YMMV.

On another note, how is this place? Is it clean? I go by it at least twice a month and have wanted to stop but usually I am busy.

 

[mikem317]

Signage is not binding in NH. It also says as you stated above "No discharge of firearms", so carrying should not be an issue. IANAL and YMMV.

On another note, how is this place? Is it clean? I go by it at least twice a month and have wanted to stop but usually I am busy.

I figured it wasn't binding and concealed means concealed. The physical signage is different than one's posted on the website too ("Firearms are prohibited" versus "Discharge of firearms is prohibited"). But Chester's website still lists Carol Shea Porter as the US rep, for what it's worth.

Wason Pond has a huge field of about 4 to 5 acres. I think it's rented out to camps and other organizations throughout the spring and summer. The other sections include a medium-sized playground for little ones, a fishing hole, a beach and about a dozen or so nature trails of varying length. Like almost everything in New Hampshire, it's clean. Plus it's free. I've been three times and it's never been crowded.

If you've been to or expect something on the order of Pawtuckaway State Park, you'll be disappointed, but again, it's free and Pawtuckaway charges admission.

 

[soloman02]

NH has state preemption.

159:26 Firearms, Ammunition, and Knives; Authority of the State. –
I. To the extent consistent with federal law, the state of New Hampshire shall have authority and jurisdiction over the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearms components, ammunition, firearms supplies, or knives in the state. Except as otherwise specifically provided by statute, no ordinance or regulation of a political subdivision may regulate the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearms components, ammunition, or firearms supplies in the state. Nothing in this section shall be construed as affecting a political subdivision's right to adopt zoning ordinances for the purpose of regulating firearms or knives businesses in the same manner as other businesses or to take any action allowed under RSA 207:59.
II. Upon the effective date of this section, all municipal ordinances and regulations not authorized under paragraph I relative to the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearm components, ammunition, firearms supplies, or knives shall be null and void.

Wason Pond is town property and not private property. If they have a sign stating no firearms (or knives) they are violating RSA 159:26.

So you can carry openly or concealed. If they hassle you, pull out RSA 159:26 and inform them that your attorney (Evan Nappen or Penny Dean) will be seeing them in court.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

I figured it wasn't binding and concealed means concealed. The physical signage is different than one's posted on the website too ("Firearms are prohibited" versus "Discharge of firearms is prohibited"). But Chester's website still lists Carol Shea Porter as the US rep, for what it's worth.

Wason Pond has a huge field of about 4 to 5 acres. I think it's rented out to camps and other organizations throughout the spring and summer. The other sections include a medium-sized playground for little ones, a fishing hole, a beach and about a dozen or so nature trails of varying length. Like almost everything in New Hampshire, it's clean. Plus it's free. I've been three times and it's never been crowded.

If you've been to or expect something on the order of Pawtuckaway State Park, you'll be disappointed, but again, it's free and Pawtuckaway charges admission.

Personally, I do not care too much for Pawtuckaway. I have on numerous occasions seen some nasty stuff in the water and around the hiking trails. Plus it is extremely crowded most of the times my family and I are there. I prefer a more laid back quiet place. Thanks for the heads up!

 

[mikem317]

NH has state preemption.

Thanks for clarifying. I thought about this, but I wasn't sure if there was some special exemption.

Personally, I do not care too much for Pawtuckaway. I have on numerous occasions seen some nasty stuff in the water and around the hiking trails. Plus it is extremely crowded most of the times my family and I are there. I prefer a more laid back quiet place. Thanks for the heads up!

It can get pretty rowdy at Pawtuckaway that's for sure, especially the beach when the Summer Camps are in full swing. If you want something a lot less crowded I would definitely check out Wason Pond. Plus Chester Rod and Gun Club is two clicks north on Route 102.

 

[mikem317]

I plan on writing the Board of Selectmen with my observation. No email address, just a snail mail address.

[My Address]

[Date]

Board of Selectmen
Town of Chester
84 Chester Street
Chester, NH 03036

Dear Board of Selectmen of Chester:

While enjoying the amenities of the recreation area in Wason Pond Conservation & Recreation Area on Raymond Road with family in June of this year, I observed and read a sign titled “Rules for Wason Pond Conservation & Recreation Area” which was posted near the entrance to the main parking lot on the western portion of the property.

Although my understanding of state law is that of a layman, I believe the second to last bullet, “No Firearms”, could be a direct violation of New Hampshire state law, specifically Title XII, Chapter 159:26, Paragraphs I and II:
159:26 Firearms, Ammunition, and Knives; Authority of the State. –
I. To the extent consistent with federal law, the state of New Hampshire shall have authority and jurisdiction over the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearms components, ammunition, firearms supplies, or knives in the state. Except as otherwise specifically provided by statute, no ordinance or regulation of a political subdivision may regulate the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearms components, ammunition, or firearms supplies in the state. Nothing in this section shall be construed as affecting a political subdivision's right to adopt zoning ordinances for the purpose of regulating firearms or knives businesses in the same manner as other businesses or to take any action allowed under RSA 207:59.
II. Upon the effective date of this section, all municipal ordinances and regulations not authorized under paragraph I relative to the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearm components, ammunition, firearms supplies, or knives shall be null and void.
I. Section 1 shall take effect January 1, 2004
II. Remainder shall take effect July 18, 2003

(Above parts in bold are my emphasis.)

Furthermore, the physical signage above appears to slightly but materially conflict with the rules and regulations found on the Chester town website which simply states “No discharge of firearms.”

I hope you can provide additional guidance for folks who while enjoying the comforts of the Wason Pond Conservation & Recreation Area are also in lawful possession of concealed and/or openly carried firearms.

Feel free to write back or contact me at [my email address].

Thank you for your time.

Warmest Regards,

Picture of sign:

 

[DispositionMatrix]

Your letter won't make a bit of difference. The Board of Selectmen were well aware of what they were approving. Their non-binding policy provides a pretext for 911ing anyone seen carrying. I guarantee it won't be the caller who gets jammed up by the Chester PD.

 

[DispositionMatrix]

If I lived in Chester I would identify the offending Selectmen and work on voting them out next term.

 

[mikem317]

Your letter won't make a bit of difference. The Board of Selectmen were well aware of what they were approving. Their non-binding policy provides a pretext for 911ing anyone seen carrying. I guarantee it won't be the caller who gets jammed up by the Chester PD.

Just curious on how you can be so sure of your first two points. Do you personally know them?

I figure it only took 30 minutes to write up that letter and it's going to cost another $0.49 (or whatever a 1st class postage costs nowadays) and send it on it's way. I figure if I don't get a response I can show up at their meetings which is open to the public.

 

[mikem317]

If one or more could help me out and kindly proof read my post above with my letter to the selectmen, I would be most appreciative! Thanks.

Either post here or PM any feedback.

 

[ScottS]

DispositionMatrix has his opinion of motive "...pretext for 911ing..." which seems a bit Machiavellian for a small-town Board of Selectmen. I tend to think "hey, well-intentioned people unknowingly f-up all the time." It's hard for me to believe Andy, Barney, Floyd the barber, and Howard Sprague plotting to set a trap for gun-owners. Of course, how they handle your letter will help determine who's right.

For edits, I'd change the first line in the second paragraph. Get rid of the "although I'm just a layman" qualifier, and change "...could be a direct violation..." to "...is a direct violation..." I'm also not a big fan of "I believe," but that might be a hold-over from past-life experience. ("You believe?!? Mister, you don't believe in anything but God and Country!") Similar comment for the third paragraph. Change "...appears to slightly but materially conflict with..." to "...conflicts with..." or "...contradicts..."

Remember, you're not apologizing for pointing this out...

The park is town-owned, and the preemption law is clear. You don't have to be Clarence Darrow to figure this one out.

Also, I do a lot of writing for a living. The key to effective communication, in my experience, is short declarative sentences. No squishy weasel-words. There's no reason to be a dick, but you can simply point out succinctly, "Hey, Dudes. Your signage is wrong here. The law is clear. Let's get it changed."

 

[Mr Weebles]

Personally, I do not care too much for Pawtuckaway. I have on numerous occasions seen some nasty stuff in the water and around the hiking trails. Plus it is extremely crowded most of the times my family and I are there. I prefer a more laid back quiet place. Thanks for the heads up!

I camped at Pawtuckaway a couple weeks ago. We had a great time.

We kayaked the lake on Saturday and it was fantastic.

 

[DispositionMatrix]

DispositionMatrix has his opinion of motive "...pretext for 911ing..." which seems a bit Machiavellian for a small-town Board of Selectmen.

Of course that is overstating and thus rather conveniently misrepresenting my position. My guess was simply that the selectmen responsible were gun restrictionists. This is far from a stretch given the political make-up of southern NH. Obviously any 911ing would be done by like-minded individuals who, like the selectmen, dislike firearms or at least carry--with the policy as stated on the sign being their justification.

If the selectmen were not hoplophobes or at least hung up on firearms, the item would not have been included on the sign.

 

[DispositionMatrix]

If one or more could help me out and kindly proof read my post above with my letter to the selectmen, I would be most appreciative! Thanks.

Either post here or PM any feedback.

I recommend simplifying the sentences and tightening up the language. Your intended audience probably is not the Brain Trust. Directness and politeness are always helpful, and pretending you are writing for proto-humans will keep you on track.

 

[ScottS]

Of course that is overstating and thus rather conveniently misrepresenting my position. My guess was simply that the selectmen responsible were gun restrictionists. This is far from a stretch given the political make-up of southern NH. Obviously any 911ing would be done by like-minded individuals who, like the selectmen, dislike firearms or at least carry--with the policy as stated on the sign being their justification.

If the selectmen were not hoplophobes or at least hung up on firearms, the item would not have been included on the sign.

Well, it's hard to misrepresent your position when I actually quote what you said, but not impossible I suppose. I didn't think I did. You specifically said the sign was designed to provide cover to people who "911," (which is somehow now a verb).

I'm suggesting something far less organized. No, I don't think they meant to say "No Fireworks" and somehow misspelled it to say "No Firearms." We agree on the fact their intent was to prohibit firearms. I'm just saying it is most likely that 1) they had never heard of "preemption," and thus had no idea they couldn't prohibit firearms; and 2) when informed they are in violation, they will reluctantly move to comply, especially when the town attorney gets involved.

I'm betting their first response when they get Mike's letter is "No shit?" Now, if their next response is "**** you. See you in court," then you might be right.

Time will tell, I guess.

 

[Chevy 2 65]

NH has state preemption.



Wason Pond is town property and not private property. If they have a sign stating no firearms (or knives) they are violating RSA 159:26.

So you can carry openly or concealed. If they hassle you, pull out RSA 159:26 and inform them that your attorney (Evan Nappen or Penny Dean) will be seeing them in court.

Man I need to move to NH!! My move to NC fell through!

 

[DispositionMatrix]

Well, it's hard to misrepresent your position when I actually quote what you said,...

I'll agree to disagree since even something quoted can be misread, simply not read, or deliberately misinterpreted.

..."911," (which is somehow now a verb).

I didn't think it would be too much of a stretch to use "911"/"911ing" in this context on this site rather than, say, call the police on..., especially since calling the police on open carriers was discussed ad nauseam when opencarry911 was operating. However, I'll make note that it is perceived as a problem.

It is also possible the Chester Board of Selectmen could feign ignorance rather than actually being ignorant of preemption. As selectmen they might fancy themselves politicians. Putting an invalid rule on a sign is a decidedly low-risk move. Of course, not any of this matters.

 

[MaverickNH]

I camped at Pawtuckaway a couple weeks ago. We had a great time.

We kayaked the lake on Saturday and it was fantastic.

And you don't even need to bring a radio or TV - plenty of folks there that turn theirs up so anyone can hear the Red Sox games all over the park. Wouldn't want to miss the game or favorite TV shows while camping. Who doesn't like your favorite shows?

And how about a little baseball game at your campsite too? Shagging balls into other campsites is a great way to meet new friends.

Just like your own living room or backyard, except for other people camped all around you, but no walls or fences!

It's just a short drive to the bathrooms/showers at night too. Hit that unlock button (beep-beep), start'er up and drive 50yd. Then head back, locker'er up (beep-beep) and back to the tent.

Ain't camping great!

 

[Mr Weebles]

And you don't even need to bring a radio or TV - plenty of folks there that turn theirs up so anyone can hear the Red Sox games all over the park. Wouldn't want to miss the game or favorite TV shows while camping. Who doesn't like your favorite shows?

And how about a little baseball game at your campsite too? Shagging balls into other campsites is a great way to meet new friends.

Just like your own living room or backyard, except for other people camped all around you, but no walls or fences!

It's just a short drive to the bathrooms/showers at night too. Hit that unlock button (beep-beep), start'er up and drive 50yd. Then head back, locker'er up (beep-beep) and back to the tent.

Ain't camping great!

We didn't run into any of that. It was fairly peaceful there all weekend.

 

[mikem317]

I'll agree to disagree since even something quoted can be misread, simply not read, or deliberately misinterpreted.

I didn't think it would be too much of a stretch to use "911"/"911ing" in this context on this site rather than, say, call the police on..., especially since calling the police on open carriers was discussed ad nauseam when opencarry911 was operating. However, I'll make note that it is perceived as a problem.

It is also possible the Chester Board of Selectmen could feign ignorance rather than actually being ignorant of preemption. As selectmen they might fancy themselves politicians. Putting an invalid rule on a sign is a decidedly low-risk move. Of course, not any of this matters.

My guess is that it's more on the line of what ScottS mentioned. My theory would be that some selectman (or some delegate of the board) was tasked to come up with some rules for the recreation area. The official rules got rubberstamped and they went to press without any legal or fact checking by their legal team.

We'll just have to find out based on their response... or lack of response.

I plan on mailing my final draft to them this week.

I also contacted Rick Olsen, the president of Londonderry Fish and Game and a prominent NH gun-rights activist. Rick wasn't aware of anybody else making that observation of the obvious conflict with RSA 159 and wasn't sure if anybody got contacted by LE while open carrying at Wason Pond.

He might post on Granite Grok too to help bring more attention to the matter.

 

[KBCraig]

And you don't even need to bring a radio or TV - plenty of folks there that turn theirs up so anyone can hear the Red Sox games all over the park. Wouldn't want to miss the game or favorite TV shows while camping. Who doesn't like your favorite shows?

And how about a little baseball game at your campsite too? Shagging balls into other campsites is a great way to meet new friends.

Just like your own living room or backyard, except for other people camped all around you, but no walls or fences!

It's just a short drive to the bathrooms/showers at night too. Hit that unlock button (beep-beep), start'er up and drive 50yd. Then head back, locker'er up (beep-beep) and back to the tent.

Ain't camping great!

It's time for you to get up to real New Hampshire... Roger's Campground, Twin Mountain KOA, Israel's River Campground... just about anywhere north of the notches.

 

[SpeedOften]

My guess is that it's more on the line of what ScottS mentioned. My theory would be that some selectman (or some delegate of the board) was tasked to come up with some rules for the recreation area. The official rules got rubberstamped and they went to press without any legal or fact checking by their legal team.

We'll just have to find out based on their response... or lack of response.

I plan on mailing my final draft to them this week.

I also contacted Rick Olsen, the president of Londonderry Fish and Game and a prominent NH gun-rights activist. Rick wasn't aware of anybody else making that observation of the obvious conflict with RSA 159 and wasn't sure if anybody got contacted by LE while open carrying at Wason Pond.

He might post on Granite Grok too to help bring more attention to the matter.

Any response from Chester?

 

[mikem317]

Sorry about the lack of follow-up here - I haven't sent out my email/letter. I had a few personal things jump on my front burners in July/August. I plan on picking this up soon and will give updates as necessary.

Thanks.

 

[nhpoke]

I'll just point out that the sign also says "Carry in - Carry out", so I think it just means you shouldn't leave any firearms behind.

 

[mikem317]

OK, the snail mail letter sent to the BoS and Patrick Connelly who is the chairperson of Wason Pond (not his exact title, trying to draw from memory.)

[My Info]

[Date]

Board of Selectmen
Town of Chester
84 Chester Street
Chester, NH 03036

Dear Chester Board of Selectmen:

Greetings and salutations! While recently enjoying the amenities of the Wason Pond Conservation & Recreation Area on Raymond Road, I observed and read a sign titled “Rules for Wason Pond Conservation & Recreation Area” which was posted near the entrance to the main parking lot on the western portion of the property.

I wanted to inform you of an issue with an item on the list – a list that, according to language on the sign itself, was approved by the Board of Selectmen: The “No Firearms” rule is a direct violation of New Hampshire state law, specifically Title XII, Chapter 159:26, Paragraphs I and II. This statute voids all firearm-related rules and regulations originating from a political subdivision, such as the Town of Chester. RSA 159:26 codifies into law the authority of the state of New Hampshire pertaining to the usage of firearms and knives. Based on my research this is also sometimes referred to as “state preemption”.

159:26 Firearms, Ammunition, and Knives; Authority of the State. –
I. To the extent consistent with federal law, the state of New Hampshire shall have authority and jurisdiction over the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearms components, ammunition, firearms supplies, or knives in the state. Except as otherwise specifically provided by statute, no ordinance or regulation of a political subdivision may regulate the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearms components, ammunition, or firearms supplies in the state. Nothing in this section shall be construed as affecting a political subdivision's right to adopt zoning ordinances for the purpose of regulating firearms or knives businesses in the same manner as other businesses or to take any action allowed under RSA 207:59.
II. Upon the effective date of this section, all municipal ordinances and regulations not authorized under paragraph I relative to the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearm components, ammunition, firearms supplies, or knives shall be null and void.
I. Section 1 shall take effect January 1, 2004
II. Remainder shall take effect July 18, 2003

(Above parts in bold are my emphasis.)

While the “No Firearms” lacks any actionable context, one could reasonably conclude that the implied rule means “No Firearms Allowed”. Moreover, the physical signage above slightly but materially differs with the rules and regulations found on the town website which simply states “No discharge of firearms”.

Despite the fact that there are likely visitors in lawful possession of concealed pistols and revolvers either on their persons or in their vehicles and the rule is null and void per state law, my suggested corrective action is to modify the existing signage by removing the “No Firearms” line item to fully conform to the state statute.

Feel free to write back or contact me at with any comments or thoughts on the matter. Thank you for your time.

Warmest Regards,
[Me]

CC: Patrick Connelly, Acting Chair (Wason Pond)
[/quote]

 

[mikem317]

Nothing to report so far but with the shortened work week this week may not get a ping until sometime in December.

 

[mikem317]

We win.

 

[MA_Shooter]

Congratulations.

 

[MikeRizz]

We win.

Awesome!