1. If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership  The benefits pay for the membership many times over.

  2. Dismiss Notice

Warren no friend of Israel; glad that's out in the open

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by allen-1, Jul 9, 2019.

  1. mibro

    mibro NES Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2013
    Messages:
    11,234
    Likes Received:
    7,403
    Location:
    Mass.
    Calsdad is blunt but he's not crazy.

    There's a specific genetic marker for the Jewish priesthood, descendants of Zadok, appointed high priest of the First Temple by King Solomon himself.

    The Cohen Modal Haplotype.

    I like to learn as Judaism has such a powerful influence on my life and I'm always happy to be corrected. My Israeli friend was very religious as a young man and he would debate Rabbis to advance his own education. He has a broader perspective on things now.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019

  2. 10thSFFD

    10thSFFD NES Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2013
    Messages:
    18,400
    Likes Received:
    9,273
    Location:
    Camp Deplorable in the Blue Swamp
    We need everything new! Old was bad! We need new air, new nature, new people and .......NEW POLITICIANS.

    She ain't new, though! [laugh2]
     
  3. Dench

    Dench

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2008
    Messages:
    15,541
    Likes Received:
    4,158
    I'm pretty sure the IDF would defend Israel without US handholding.
     
  4. Len-2A Training

    Len-2A Training Instructor Instructor NES Life Member NES Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    50,441
    Likes Received:
    7,697
    Location:
    Escaping to NH
    I can agree with this statement. And they may be more direct in doing so than the US would want them to be!
     
  5. PATRON

    PATRON NES Life Member NES Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2007
    Messages:
    4,548
    Likes Received:
    1,496
    Warren should be busy trying to get the US to give back the land to the Indians.
     
    Me Have ADD and Len-2A Training like this.
  6. MarlboroughMan

    MarlboroughMan NES Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2016
    Messages:
    312
    Likes Received:
    350
    She would be if she thought that would buy her some votes.
     
    Len-2A Training and 10thSFFD like this.
  7. Soundwave

    Soundwave

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2019
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    82
    Yes but it's still just people from a specific area. Just because the religion has been around longer and has better records doesn't mean it's the same as an ethnicity especially since there was never a country etc. I'd accept middle eastern for God's sake lol. The fact that you can choose to be or not be Jewish is the determining factor. Almost everything said about jews as a group can be said for most immigrants from similar areaa. Hard working, business savy, cheap etc.. it's anyone coming from a much time rougher country where they have to haggle and fight for every little thing. Then they come here and we're just so easy going they end up owning three stores. I guess I'm more than just baffled how anyone would not call me white lol

    I get that there is a jewish state now but it's not like if you could trace your ancestry back to the ottoman empire you'd label yourself white ottoman? Would you? Especially if the past 3+ generations we're from France?
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
  8. boatman

    boatman

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2012
    Messages:
    1,392
    Likes Received:
    290
    That's not how it works. Specifically, the classification is based on statistics from people uploading their dna results with information about themselves. Askenazi Jewish people hail from a small area in eastern Europe, East Germany, Poland, Lithuania, Belarus etc. For many hundreds of years, only Jews married Jews from this region. Intermarriage back then was almost non existent. So if your numbers match at like 98%, which many do, chances are statistically high this is correct interpretation of your background.

    What Mibro links to is a haplotype from one of the 12 Tribes, the Cohens, the priests, who only married amongst others of the tribe. So the DNA is pretty pure. Intermarriage for Jewish people was very insignificant until about 50 years ago so these results are pretty good.

    I have a big problem with the term African American/Chinese American/Italian American etc. if you are more than 1st generation. If you immigrated here from Somali, you are African American. If your parents did, you are an American with black skin of African descent/heritage. To me, African American isn't a race, it is a heritage. I think I am a realist, not a racist.
     
    Soundwave, mibro and 10thSFFD like this.
  9. mibro

    mibro NES Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2013
    Messages:
    11,234
    Likes Received:
    7,403
    Location:
    Mass.
    When I said something like that to my Israeli friend he laughed. You can not simply choose to be Jewish. A conversion to Judaism requires hundreds of hours of religious instruction from a Rabbi just to start.

    Do you have a Sabbath clock? Do you have two kitchens in your house? Do you maintain two completely separate sets of silverware, flatware and kitchen tools? If a dairy item happens to touch the wrong plate do you break and discard the plate or wait until it can be decontaminated by a Rabbi with boiling water in a lengthy ritual?

    You can not just choose to be Jewish. This is why some Israelis consider some American Jews not to really be Jewish at all. It takes more than just avoiding pork products.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
    oldguy68 likes this.
  10. Soundwave

    Soundwave

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2019
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    82
    I have none of those things but I still identify as Jewish! Granted my father is Catholic and my mother is Jewish. I had a bar mitzvah but haven't been in a temple in 20 years. There is really reform , conservative and orthodox. Only orthodox really keeps kosher except for a few very strict conservative Jews.
     
  11. mibro

    mibro NES Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2013
    Messages:
    11,234
    Likes Received:
    7,403
    Location:
    Mass.
    I read an interesting game theory-based analysis of Judaism recently which I thought was simple and brilliant.

    If you're a small minority constantly surrounded by people not like you you're most threatened by intermarriage and the subsequent dilution and disappearance of your cultural and genetic identity. I'm not thrilled by that prospect myself so I completely understand why Israel requires genetic testing of both parties before marriage licenses are issued.

    So how do you keep your identity alive for more than 2,000 years and survive as a separate ethnic group? It requires a mythology of separateness and a low level of antagonism between your ethnic group and those unlike you. That is why the idea that Jewish people are disliked by non-Jews is so important to Jewish identity, without it you intermarry and disappear just as so many other ethnic groups have done.

    It's very clever really, together with matrilinearity it makes a strong cultural defensive wall, an eruv around the Jewish People.
     
  12. mibro

    mibro NES Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2013
    Messages:
    11,234
    Likes Received:
    7,403
    Location:
    Mass.
    Honestly you have more in common with a lowly gentile like me than with an Orthodox Jew in Israel.

    My Israeli friend grew up quite poor in Israel in an apartment block with multiple nationalities. Every one of those small apartments had two kitchens.
     
    Soundwave likes this.
  13. Len-2A Training

    Len-2A Training Instructor Instructor NES Life Member NES Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    50,441
    Likes Received:
    7,697
    Location:
    Escaping to NH
    And there are many levels of orthodox too.

    Some are so ultra-orthodox that they don't even recognize other Jews as being Jewish.
     
    MarlboroughMan and Soundwave like this.
  14. Soundwave

    Soundwave

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2019
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    82
    While I agree with that I would also say it doesn't make me any less Jewish. It's 2019 religions have been diluted to the extreme. Especially if people are actually going to categorize me as Jewish before white or America Lol

    Oh and I've been to Israel granted it was 20 years ago. But just like here and almost every other country people are just people. You go there and not everything is a cookie cutter stereotype you see on TV etc and just because a government is one way doesn't mean every citizen is etc
     
    MarlboroughMan likes this.
  15. Picton

    Picton NES Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2012
    Messages:
    7,326
    Likes Received:
    4,642
    Location:
    MA
    Yeah.

    I think if I was Jewish, NOBODY would get any mileage out of telling me I “wasn’t Jewish enough.”

    That’s just not someplace you get to go. A person’s religion is their own business, nobody else’s.
     
    MarlboroughMan and Soundwave like this.
  16. MarlboroughMan

    MarlboroughMan NES Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2016
    Messages:
    312
    Likes Received:
    350
    Couldn't agree more. I'm Jew"ish" but I eat pork and lobster, go to temple just once a year mostly for the sake of my old man (armed properly of course) am married to an orthodox Christian Russian woman, and only really think about my religion when somebody disparages it or when I'm reminded why it's so important to Never Forget.
     
    allen-1 and Soundwave like this.
  17. mibro

    mibro NES Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2013
    Messages:
    11,234
    Likes Received:
    7,403
    Location:
    Mass.
    Yeah, my wife, whose name is Gold*****, tells me my interest in Judaism is so odd I must want to be Jewish. Maybe I'll convert.
     
  18. Picton

    Picton NES Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2012
    Messages:
    7,326
    Likes Received:
    4,642
    Location:
    MA
    My grandma was Jewish. My grandpa, who I never knew, converted to marry her, which was a BIG deal in 1944 America; they were both Marines, too. I can imagine the ration of shit people threw on him then. I wish I'd known him. They both converted to Christianity after my mom was born.

    She never missed an opportunity to remind me that I'd have been treated as a Jew and sent to the camps under the German "purity" laws, even though I was never Jewish. If I were even slightly religious now, Jewish is what I'd become.
     
    MarlboroughMan and Soundwave like this.
  19. mibro

    mibro NES Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2013
    Messages:
    11,234
    Likes Received:
    7,403
    Location:
    Mass.
    That's a complicated situation and the Nuremburg rules themselves were complicated but I don't think your grandma was necessarily correct. One Jewish grandparent would make you only one step removed from German Ancestry under the Nuremburg rules, which did not distinguish between matrilineality and patrilineality.

    As you are martially-inclined you might well have been a German soldier.
     
  20. Picton

    Picton NES Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2012
    Messages:
    7,326
    Likes Received:
    4,642
    Location:
    MA
    Two grandparents.

    Conversions counted, since the assumption would have been that my mom would have been Jewish too.

    Anyway. Let’s not quibble. Her point was taken well enough. And so is yours: a lot of people’s situations are complicated. It’s no good to say someone isn’t “really Jewish” if they don’t, say, keep kosher. It’s their life and their religion. They get to define it, not anyone else.
     
    MarlboroughMan and mibro like this.
  21. mibro

    mibro NES Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2013
    Messages:
    11,234
    Likes Received:
    7,403
    Location:
    Mass.
    OK, so where were we. Prominent Democrats, including Warren, are coming out of the closet as anti-Israel. Meanwhile, Israel has just named a Golan Heights settlement "Trump Heights." How much longer will the American Jewish community predominantly support the Democrats?

    It's a conundrum.

    [​IMG]
     
    Soundwave likes this.
  22. Len-2A Training

    Len-2A Training Instructor Instructor NES Life Member NES Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    50,441
    Likes Received:
    7,697
    Location:
    Escaping to NH
    In general Judiasm allows us to define how we want to live our lives as a Jew. We associate with those we like regardless of religion, race, creed or color . . . we eat what we want without guilt or having to explain it to anyone, etc. [Ultra-orthodox Jews are a different breed and tend to stick to their own, only eat what is "approved" and live a life without even knowing what other types of people are like!]
     
    Picton likes this.
  23. Dennis in MA

    Dennis in MA NES Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2007
    Messages:
    14,072
    Likes Received:
    6,071
    Oh good. Lizzie's mentor in her policies is. . . . . . . Fidel Castro. I'm sure she's going to use his model for health care as well. That'll be funny when she puts all the AIDS patients into prison camp hospitals.
     
  24. Dennis in MA

    Dennis in MA NES Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2007
    Messages:
    14,072
    Likes Received:
    6,071
    Christians have some of the same rules.

    Catholics do not recognize the writings of Martin Luther.
    Protestants do not recognize the infallibility of the Pope.
    Baptists don't recognize each other at the liquor store.
     
    Len-2A Training likes this.
  25. 10thSFFD

    10thSFFD NES Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2013
    Messages:
    18,400
    Likes Received:
    9,273
    Location:
    Camp Deplorable in the Blue Swamp
    In 2016 she also adopted Fidel's famous fiery delivery:


    View: https://youtu.be/uYdYYvikNTw
     
    Dennis in MA likes this.
  26. mibro

    mibro NES Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2013
    Messages:
    11,234
    Likes Received:
    7,403
    Location:
    Mass.
    This is timely. These issues are being discussed at the highest level in Israel right now.

    Israel's newly appointed Minister of Education Rafi Peretz said at a Cabinet meeting on July 1 that the rate of intermarriage among U.S. Jews is "like a second Holocaust," according to 3 people who were in the room.
    • Peretz said the assimilation of Jews around the world and mostly in the U.S. was "like a second Holocaust," and added that due to intermarriages in the last 70 years the Jewish people "lost 6 million people." Peretz's spokesman confirmed this account.
    • Minister of Energy Yuval Steinitz pushed back on Peretz's remarks and said assimilation wasn't a critical problem. Steinitz added: "First we need to stop disregarding and looking down on Jews in America that see themselves as Jews not only religiously but even more culturally and historically."
    • Netanyahu concluded the discussion by saying he is less concerned by political trends among U.S. Jews who are more liberal than by the demographic trends.
    • Netanyahu added that growing numbers of U.S. Jews are drifting away from Jewish traditions, a trend that is hard to reverse.
     
  27. Picton

    Picton NES Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2012
    Messages:
    7,326
    Likes Received:
    4,642
    Location:
    MA
    Yep. Demographics are a dominant issue in Israel. Always have been.
     
  28. boatman

    boatman

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2012
    Messages:
    1,392
    Likes Received:
    290
    up until 150 years ago, there weren't different types of Judaism, ... just Jews. If you were Jewish, you followed ALL the rules. You kept kosher, you observed the sabbath on Sat, etc. , you were what today would be called orthodox Judaism. There was no interpretation of the rules, they were there and you followed them. You lived in a shtetl , an area in the city for Jewish people only. In fact, if you go to major European cities, you can visit the Jewish area, it has probably been that was since 1500 when the Jews were expelled from Spain and cities sectioned areas for them. Everyone in your area followed the same rules. You married people from your Jewish area or other nearby Jewish areas. There was no real inter marriage.

    It has only been in the last 150 years that the conservative and reform sects have come into being which allowed for easier assimilation into other societies. I think if in the US when the Jews immigrated they were forced to settle into their own areas like in Europe, these sects would not have come into being.

    In Israel, there are many non observant Jews, but the work week follows that you shut down on Fri aft, lots of places are closed on Sat for the Sabbath, many restuarants serve kosher or places have kosher areas, etc. So even the non observant people are still sort of going along with basics tenets of the religion.

    Many Catholic and Muslim people I know only go to Church on Xmas and Easter or don't fast all the days of Ramadam, etc. but identify that as their religion. Most people's religion is from their indoctrination as a child, not what they actually believe in.
     
    Soundwave and 10thSFFD like this.

Share This Page