Warren no friend of Israel; glad that's out in the open

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You may as well ask yourself if it is anti-American if you want to secure our borders.

Officially Israel does not occupy Gaza. Gaza has it's own government.
Admittedly, I know little of the situation. It just seems like the occupation is over reach, and isreal building new settlements doesnt seem like the best way to move toward peace. My understanding is that each side needs to consider compromise OR take the handcuffs off to let them each fight it out and end it.

I appreciate your analogy though, i definitely have to learn more.
 

jpk

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In overall perspective though liawatha's isreal issues amount to nothing more than an extra cherry on the double layer/triple icing cake that already has 14 other cherries on it..........

Its like the 300th reason not to vote for this shit bag communist
 

June4th

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No country was interested in you, you just survived concentration camp and you have nowhere to go. What would you do?
You find like-minded people and use any means, bombing King David Hotel if necessary, on your way of fencing off a piece of land that you can call home, and defend it based on the firm belief that your life and your children’s lives depend on it.
 

10thSFFD

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Admittedly, I know little of the situation. It just seems like the occupation is over reach, and isreal building new settlements doesnt seem like the best way to move toward peace. My understanding is that each side needs to consider compromise OR take the handcuffs off to let them each fight it out and end it.

I appreciate your analogy though, i definitely have to learn more.
There some very educational threads on NES which cover the issue in great details. This is one of them:
Hundreds of Rockets Falling on Israel
 

10thSFFD

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You find like-minded people and use any means, bombing King David Hotel if necessary, on your way of fencing off a piece of land that you can call home, and defend it based on the firm belief that your life and your children’s lives depend on it.
Without Stalin and communist countries there would be no Israel. Another paradox to ponder.
 
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67ray

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We have the British Mandate and the League of Nations to blame for all of this. There was an agreement by the parties in control after WW1 to allow the land to be awarded to the Jews as Israeli. The Palestinians at the time accepted that and later based on the King of Egypt word they left for the most part. Then post WW2 there was the UN/LON agreement again and all hell broke loose. If I recall from Western civ class properly.
 

Picton

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Let's not forget that those, who by miracle survived pogroms and camps and tried to return home after 1945, had quickly fund out that their homes are no longer theirs, their businesses are no longer there, or they belonged to someone else. We think that only Nazis were responsible for genocide but Polish, Ukrainian, Slovak, Hungarian, Croatian, Austrian and Soviet citizens had their share. Jews were being systematically killed also from 1945 all the way to 1955 because they wanted their property back. Stalin organized clean up of the communist party with a special focus on Jews.......

No country was interested in you, you just survived concentration camp and you have nowhere to go. What would you do?
All true. But I was writing in the present tense.

It’s not difficult for Israelis to get visas for a whole slew of countries now.
 

Bt74

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Admittedly, I know little of the situation. It just seems like the occupation is over reach, and isreal building new settlements doesnt seem like the best way to move toward peace. My understanding is that each side needs to consider compromise OR take the handcuffs off to let them each fight it out and end it.

I appreciate your analogy though, i definitely have to learn more.
Peace????? With the Palestinians? Those savages send their own children out to throw stones at Israeli soldiers, not giving a shit about the risk. There will be peace, when Palestinians love their children more than they hate Israelis.
isreal1.jpg
 
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Peace????? With the Palestinians? Those savages send their own children out to throw stones at Israeli soldiers, not giving a shit about the risk. There will be peace, when Palestinians love their children more than they hate Israelis.
View attachment 292468
That's why I suggested uncuffing both sides and let one side destroy the other. Seems like the only thing that will end the conflict.
 

Garys

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Said government having as it's official policy the destruction of Israel and driving "the Jews" into the Mediterranean.

You may as well ask yourself if it is anti-American if you want to secure our borders.

Officially Israel does not occupy Gaza. Gaza has it's own government.
 
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Why are both sides of the American political class so concerned about Israel? Why oh why would we spend so much foreign aid on them?
 

peterk123

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Why are both sides of the American political class so concerned about Israel? Why oh why would we spend so much foreign aid on them?
Strategic is probably the biggest reason. They are really the only one I would call our real ally in the middle east. Plus they provide us with ocean access, which I think is critical to that area. They are very well armed, thanks to us, so we should be able to crank up our presence very quickly if the shit hits the fan there.
 

Woodsy

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Strategic is probably the biggest reason. They are really the only one I would call our real ally in the middle east. Plus they provide us with ocean access, which I think is critical to that area. They are very well armed, thanks to us, so we should be able to crank up our presence very quickly if the shit hits the fan there.
Ocean access? Can’t recall us ever using their ports for any action in the ME
 

Cipher

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Why are both sides of the American political class so concerned about Israel? Why oh why would we spend so much foreign aid on them?
The left sees Israel as a proxy for foreign intervention on behalf of the US. Certain segments of the right see it the other way around. The evangelical right sees Israel as a means to bringing Jesus back.

The reality is most Israelis are skeptical of US involvement as it sometimes backfires against their own interests. US funding comes with a lot of strings attached. Also as mentioned earlier a sizable percentage of American Jews are very left wing/liberal and a rift has developed between them and the more traditional right wing Israeli population.
 

Davidk

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Admittedly, I know little of the situation. It just seems like the occupation is over reach, and isreal building new settlements doesnt seem like the best way to move toward peace. My understanding is that each side needs to consider compromise OR take the handcuffs off to let them each fight it out and end it.

I appreciate your analogy though, i definitely have to learn more.
Israel needs to compromise with the Palestinians like we need to compromise on gun control
 

calsdad

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Without Stalin and communist countries there would be no Israel. Another paradox to ponder.
Here's another one:

Zionists cooperated to some extent with Nazi Germany - or put another way: Nazis cooperated with Zionists

Zionism and the Third Reich

Over the years, people in many different countries have wrestled with the "Jewish question": that is, what is the proper role of Jews in non-Jewish society? During the 1930s, Jewish Zionists and German National Socialists shared similar views on how to deal with this perplexing issue. They agreed that Jews and Germans were distinctly different nationalities, and that Jews did not belong in Germany. Jews living in the Reich were therefore to be regarded not as "Germans of the Jewish faith," but rather as members of a separate national community. Zionism (Jewish nationalism) also implied an obligation by Zionist Jews to resettle in Palestine, the "Jewish homeland." They could hardly regard themselves as sincere Zionists and simultaneously claim equal rights in Germany or any other "foreign" country.

-----------

Six months after Hitler came to power, the Zionist Federation of Germany (by far the largest Zionist group in the country) submitted a detailed memorandum to the new government that reviewed German-Jewish relations and formally offered Zionist support in "solving" the vexing "Jewish question." The first step, it suggested, had to be a frank recognition of fundamental national differences: /4

Zionism has no illusions about the difficulty of the Jewish condition, which consists above all in an abnormal occupational pattern and in the fault of an intellectual and moral posture not rooted in one's own tradition. Zionism recognized decades ago that as a result of the assimilationist trend, symptoms of deterioration were bound to appear ...




______________________________________________________________



The bolded lines are very similar to the way I feel about the relationship it seems what is going on both internally within the US - and in the US's relations with Israel.

First off - there's a an awful lot of people who need to get their loyalties straight. They operate as if they are Israeli agents - and quite obviously don't give two shits about happens in THIS country.

Secondly : that comment " an intellectual and moral posture not rooted in one's own tradition" seems a like a pretty accurate description of a lot of American Jews' political positions as they support things like gun control, big government, internationalist organizations like the UN - and things like mass immigration that are flooding the country with people who are also against American historical traditions.


There's only one real way the United States will ever "work" - and that is everybody who comes here gives up a good amount of what they were and wherever they came from. We used to get immigrants who understood this. They learned English , changed their names, adopted American customs and history as their own - etc.

The last few decades - not so much. If Jews are their own people and keep acting as their own people WITHIN the US , then it's just a matter of time before the favor is returned, and people start recognizing that Jews are "not of us".

As I've said in private conversation with more than one member here, I do not believe that my government is going to put me on a train, put me in a concentration camp and kill me. But - I grew up sitting on my god-father's knee, seeing the tattoo that he got in one of Hitler's concentration camps; people are capable of incredible evil.

My godmother, (my mother's aunt), couldn't have children because of the "experiments" that were done to her by "doctors" in that f***ing camp. I didn't understand why they had food stashed around their house in odd places until I was a teenager. Or why they were stamp dealers - they could put a million dollars worth of stamps in an envelope, put the envelope in an inner pocket - and run - on 30 seconds notice. And they were prepared to do so. My god-father, who went to temple every day, had a pistol in his safe. Now that I'm older - I suspect it wasn't legally obtained.

I grew up learning my family's history, which includes my mother fleeing as a child from Vienna, and her father disappearing. The holocaust isn't the only genocide in recent history - it's the genocide that's impacted my family.

Like others in this forum, I'm a Jew - and I'm a gun owner. I'm not giving up my guns, and I'm not trusting my government to "take care of me". "Never Forget" is hard-wired into me. I rarely go to Temple, when I do, I carry a gun. When I attend my wife's church, I carry a gun there too. She used to get upset about that, she doesn't any more.


I think I have a better than average understanding of what transpired in Germany leading up to what went down in Nazi Germany. A lot of German Jews simply refused to believe that "their" government would do what it did. We're talking about men who were decorated WW1 veterans. Families that had lived in Germany for generations.

You say "never forget" - but from where I stand : Jews seem to have completely forgotten not the end result of the Holocaust, but what got them there in the first place. They forget that they weren't dumped into boxcars and shipped out to camps on a whim or an entirely made up pretense. Germany was a shit show after WW1. Communist revolutions, the debauchery of the Weimar Republic, massive hyperinflation, the feeling they were sold out after WW1 (many Germans had no idea why they lost that war - it felt like somebody sold them out). Those Communist revolutions and the Weimar debauchery all had heavy involvement by Jews.

These things do not go unnoticed.

Just as Jeffrey Epstein is not going unnoticed:

Opinion | As A Jew, I Cringed Over Jeffrey Epstein - And Played Into The Anti-Semites’ Hands.

When I heard that Jeffrey Epstein had been arrested on sex-trafficking charges, I cringed. I’m sure I was not the only Jewish person who did, or whose first thought was,Why does this sorry excuse for a human have to be Jewish? And I probably also wasn’t the only Jewish person whose second thought was, Given that he is Jewish, why does he have to have such a Jewish-sounding name?

It’s a natural response to a people who have been hounded by anti-Semites, to cringe when one of our own behaves in such a horrifying manner. And of course, it didn’t take long for the anti-Semites to crawl out of their holes with the reactions that prompted mine.



You see people do notice - and then people start asking questions like this:

View: https://twitter.com/StefanMolyneux/status/1148280761319153666?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1148280761319153666&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fforward.com%2Fopinion%2F427300%2Fas-a-jew-i-cringed-over-jeffrey-epstein-i-played-into-the-anti-semites%2F




Further in the Forward.com article the author writes:

As Holocaust scholar Deborah Lipstadt once told me when I interviewed her about her book, Antisemitism: Here and Now, it doesn’t matter how Jews behave. Anti-Semitism is not based on anything rational. Rooted in a mythology of secret Jewish power, money, control, and dual loyalties, anti-Semitism and Jewish wrongdoing have little to do with each other.


The above comment is just an excuse. "It doesn't matter how Jews behave" - well you could just as easily ask: why the hell is it that it seems Jews keep behaving the same ?

It's a similar thing to when blacks yell and scream about how racism drove them to be a bunch of criminals. It's pretty easy to refute that line by just hauling out the FBI crime statistics - which show things like (for instance) that black on white rape is in the realm of thousands per year - where as white on black rape is on the order of something like a dozen incidents per year.

This coming from a population difference where blacks make up something like 14% or so of the US population - and whites make up something like 60%. It's so friggin obvious there is a "black problem" with crime that it's just absurd that people try to ignore it and bury it and hope it will go away.



People used to understand that when they're a minority one of the cardinal rules is : " don't act like an a**h*** and call attention to yourself".

This is a rule that's been completely thrown in the garbage bin by multiple minority groups within this country.

My reading of history and human nature tells me there's going to be consequences for that.

I wouldn't count out that "won't happen in the US" thing quite yet.
 

10thSFFD

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That's why I suggested uncuffing both sides and let one side destroy the other. Seems like the only thing that will end the conflict.
Check history. That was done few times already and if we would not step in Israelis would be in Syria, Egypt and Jordan. Read about history of Israel and you will be amazed by capabilities of Israelis and their forces.

Why are both sides of the American political class so concerned about Israel? Why oh why would we spend so much foreign aid on them?
is.jpg
 

June4th

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Israel is trying to, claiming to have three goals:

1. Israel’s being 'a primarily Jewish state',
2. Israel being a democratic/republic that all enjoy the same rights and are afforded equal protection of the law,
3. Jewish people maintain population majority in Israel.

The problem is that demographic changes are undoing #3, and if it is to maintain #1 objective, they'd have to destroy #2: Apartheid Ver. 2.0 is already here today, many would argue.

The very moral arguments to establish the Jewish state is going to sound lot like arguments justifying horrific acts perpetrated on Jewish people years past.
 
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I wouldn't count out that "won't happen in the US" thing quite yet.
Looks to me from a lot of what I read that you write that it's what you're hoping for. I won't make excuses for A-hole Jews. There are plenty of them just like in every other race, creed, color, etc. But the way I read a lot of what you're espousing is that the Jews essentially deserved what they got with the Holocaust. To that I say with all due respect, F you. Don't underestimate how many of us truly do get the meaning of Never Again.
 

Cipher

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Israel is trying to, claiming to have three goals:

1. Israel’s being 'a primarily Jewish state',
2. Israel being a democratic/republic that all enjoy the same rights and are afforded equal protection of the law,
3. Jewish people maintain population majority in Israel.

The problem is that demographic changes are undoing #3, and if it is to maintain #1 objective, they'd have to destroy #2: Apartheid Ver. 2.0 is already here today, many would argue.

The very moral arguments to establish the Jewish state is going to sound lot like arguments justifying horrific acts perpetrated on Jewish people years past.
You can have all three. Just keep a solid border.
 
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