RockIt
Banned
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
Gary, they are all busily just discovering that Tay Ninh is in Viet Nam, and as they read, are further discovering the horrific battles that took place there.There is no way he picked that name out of a hat.
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Veterans Receive Letters From VA Prohibiting Ownership or Purchase of Firearms
- Thread starter Bfatz
- Start date
Gary, they are all busily just discovering that Tay Ninh is in Viet Nam, and as they read, are further discovering the horrific battles that took place there.There is no way he picked that name out of a hat.
RockIt
Banned
The "But" says it all.
With one simple "But" I can take away all of your rights, whether you are sane or not. I can justify anything I want to do to you.
Stuff your "But".
Who ever said he could not have an opinion? He was free to express his and I was free to point out how absurd it was. Freedom of speech is a bitch, ain't it? Goes 2 ways.
PS it is insulting to insinuate that it is inappropriate to disagree with a vet. Because they are special and have/deserve more rights than us commoners.
RockIt
Banned
"We all hate to see yet another way the government can control a persons rights. But children have a right to be safe"
"We all hate to see yet another way the government can control a persons rights. But criminals get their hands on them, we have to ban them"
"We all hate to see yet another way the government can control a persons rights. But you might offend other people, so here is your list of banned words"
"We all hate to see yet another way the government can control a persons rights. But you understand this search without a warrant, it is for the common good"
"We all hate to see yet another way the government can control a persons rights. But we feel that you are not capable of voting correctly, therefore, you will not vote"
"We all hate to see yet another way the government can control a persons rights. But criminals get their hands on them, we have to ban them"
"We all hate to see yet another way the government can control a persons rights. But you might offend other people, so here is your list of banned words"
"We all hate to see yet another way the government can control a persons rights. But you understand this search without a warrant, it is for the common good"
"We all hate to see yet another way the government can control a persons rights. But we feel that you are not capable of voting correctly, therefore, you will not vote"
RockIt
Banned
You are only free to point out how absurd TayNinh's opinion is if you have experience with the VA by being a vet. That means you know what you are talking about. Otherwise, what you call pointing out absurdity, is actually you making a complete fool of yourself. Which you accomplished very nicely, I might add.
Freedom of speech truly is a bitch, it allows one to make an ass of oneself, WELL DONE!
Nick Fury
NES Member
Not saying I agree with government control. Sorry I didn't clearly post that. BUT I would love to hear your personal experiences with mental illness. Do you have any? Thanks in advance!
Garys
NES Member
All of what you say is true, except that doctors don't make the determination of incompetency. As a lawyer friend of mine, who has over 40 years of legal and medical experience, likes to point out, legal competency is a judicial determination. As it happens, in MA it's hard to get someone declared incompetent because it requires a judge to involuntarily commit someone to a mental hospital and that's not easy. A "Section 12" is a 72 hour hold for observation, but even that doesn't address competency, it addresses "present mental capacity". A Section 12 can be issued by a physician, a psychiatric RN, or a police officer. Note that no one I know has ever heard of a police officer actually doing that and if you ask 100 MA cops at least 99 of them wouldn't know what you are talking about. Still, a Section 12 doesn't get reported to anyone, so it can't be used to prohibit firearms ownership.
Which is not to say that liberals wouldn't like to lower the bar to prohibition. They just can't do it as the law currently stands.
If you bothered to read my post before mouthing off, my objection was to his saying that if you are not capable of managing your affairs you are not suitable to own a firearm.
I don't care what was said of the VA. That was not my issue.
Garys
NES Member
I didn't say that it's inappropriate to disagree with a vet. I said it's insulting to attack him personally as opposed to disagreeing with his opinion. Two different things. I do disagree with his position as I think it should be fairly difficult for the government (or anyone) to strip a citizen of his rights under the Second or any other Amendment. My point was that if you think he's wrong say so and spell out why. Calling him juvenile names merely points out the weakness of the name caller's position.
Nick Fury
NES Member
And you are absolute right that this sort of thing empowers one person with a personal agenda to wreak havok on the rest of society. BUT what do we do? How do we protect ourselves when former snipers can get shot in the back for trying to do their best to help others with diagnosed mental instabilities?
RockIt
Banned
I read his post, and your response. He is right, you are wrong.
"Managing your affairs" is a term that means having the wits about you to know what is going on around you. Being aware. If you are not capable of "managing your affairs", you have lost competency, it also means you are probably under constant care.
You need to read, comprehend, and think before you post. Cricket.
RockIt
Banned
Run across one or two. But you seem to either seek them out, or they find you to be attractive. I would start worrying about that if I were you.
flintoid
Banned
I deem you mentally incapable of owning firearms due to the mental disorder that I am diagnosing you with. I am a doctor. And this post is enough proof for me to make the diagnosis. Please surrender your god given rights immediately and hand over your firearms to the authorities.
I didn't know this was an out yourself thread.
RockIt
Banned
Like I posted before, this notice is sent out BEFORE anyone makes any determination. If the vet says "nope, I am not doing any further testing" it ends right there. In other words, think of it as sort of a Miranda warning. The VA is saying to the vet that he is complaining of an illness that may cause them to make a determination that he is incompetent to possess firearms. They will not proceed unless he agrees. It is his choice. Just like blabbing away with a cop after being read Miranda warnings.
RockIt
Banned
Go ahead and crawfish all you want. In the context of being judged incompetent, financial affairs are not the sole metric.
TayNinh said he wanted states to follow VA protocol, i.e. make an administrative determination that an individual is incompetent to possess firearms based on a physician's recommendation. I don't see how you need to be a VA patient to have a credible opinion on this potential government intrusion into your life.
Veteran status is neither a shield from criticism, nor a prerequisite for having an opinion on VA policy or state law.
Scarecrow
Army Veteran
Here:
dx(med-speak for diagnosis or diagnosed) PTSD 2007, VA notice recieved late 2007. Cleared 2009. The only thing the notice said regarding firearms is that I should restrict my access to them (in case anxiety and depression hit and I went all homicidal/suicidal). Never said anything about me not being able to own them.
The VA does not have the authority to deny a person the ability to use and own firearms. No one can get any of your information with regards to anything, but especially regarding mental health without a massively arduous process. I know, I work with the RI Army National Guard as a case manager, and it used to take me a long time to get records from them because of all the steps we had to go through to get the information. We also needed to have a release of information form signed and filled out by the servicemember, and the person being managed could refuse and there isn't a damned thing we could do about it. Now we have access to the AHLTA system, which is where those notes are kept, so it's a little easier, but we can only look at the cases of people we are actively tracking; the system logs all accesses and what was viewed, and that is auditted weekly... if I were to access something that I did not need, my access would be revoked and I would be facing (taken directly from the HIPAA website) Offenses committed under false pretenses allow penalties to be increased to a $100,000 fine, with up to five years in prison.
This is the HIPAA stuff the government is trying to bypass with the "mental health checks" bullshit. **** them, I deny them the right to review my records and invoke my second amendment right to keep and bear arms. Want to fight about it? See you in court mother****er.
If they play this game, I want to push to have the phrase "That offends me" removed. Everytime someone tells me that something I said offended them, my response is "You being offended offends me, so stop being offended." I'm hoping to get one of them stuck in a feedback loop one day.
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It seems you're completely misundertanding the issue. Did you read the letter? It states that the VA plans to rate him incompetent based on the evidence they already have, unless he objects with new evidence within a certain timeframe. This is not a warning, it's a notice of a decision already made, giving the patient an opportunity to state his case before it's finalized.
Simply complaining of an illness would never cause a VA clinician to recommend an incompetency rating.
Scarecrow
Army Veteran
It does not matter in the slightest... the VA could have a doctor stand on top of the building with a bullhorn, belting out to the world that you are incompetent and shall not possess firearms, it will not make a difference in your ability to own one. They cannot report it to anyone without violating HIPAA unless you allow them to report it. The only time that is null is if you declare that you are homicidal/suicidal, in which case they will not release you from the hospital and will more than likely transfer you to a psychiatric hospital for in-house treatment.
They can send me a thousand letters stating that they have decided I an incompetent and cannot own guns, every one of them will be sent back with a picture of a different gun and a generic note thanking them for their opinion but I respectfully disagree and any attempt by them to inform someone that they found me incompetent will result in a HIPAA violation lawsuit in compliance with US Penal Code (42 USC § 1320d-5), thank you and have a lovely day. I could use the money (offenses committed with the intent to sell, transfer, or use individually identifiable health information for commercial advantage, personal gain or malicious harm permit fines of $250,000, and imprisonment for up to ten years.)
RockIt
Banned
Did YOU read the letter? No, you did not, because the letter starts at PAGE 2. Get it, PAGE 2!!!
Nor does it say that the VA plans to rate him incompetent based on the evidence they already have, where did you get that from?
It is not a NOTICE of any kind.
What YOU read is all the garbage below the real letter, of which only PAGE 2 was shown.
BTW, the VA cannot in and of itself determine anyone to be incompetent, that is still a legal process. They can start the process, but it is finished in a court.
RockIt
Banned
So, now you "mouths" have heard from us real vets, with real experience in this matter. If you want to believe some half assed internet rag, help yourselves. Make sure you fold your tinfoil hats all nice and neat, but please bend over the sharp corners so you don't poke your eye out, kid.
RockIt
Banned
The part where I wrote about a patient complaining of an illness was a bit short. Once the vet complains, the doc will give him notice (like this letter) so that the vet is aware of the consequences that could occur with further testing and evaluation.
You are absolutely right, simply complaining would not result in any sort of rating.
From page 1 of the letter (I'm re-typing from the PDF):
We received a report from Portland VAMC on December 3, 2012... This evidence indicates that you are not able to handle your VA benefit payments because a physical or mental condition... We propose to rate you incompetent for VA purposes... we will base our decision on all the evidence we already have including any other evidence we send you.
The full PDF of the letter is available here:
Disturbing Report: Veterans are receiving letters from VA prohibiting the ownership or purchase of firearms... Developing... | RedFlagNews.com
Here is text from the VA CFRs. A court is not involved. It's a determination made by the VA that it reports to the FBI in accordance with the VA's interpretation of the Brady Bill. You're a prohibited person once you get the rating.
Subpart A: Pension, Compensation, and Dependency and Indemnity Compensation
: Ratings for Special Purposes
3.353 - Determinations of incompetency and competency.
(a) Definition of mental incompetency. A mentally incompetent person is one who because of injury or disease lacks the mental capacity to contract or to manage his or her own affairs, including disbursement of funds without limitation.
(b) Authority. (1) Rating agencies have sole authority to make official determinations of competency and incompetency for purposes of: insurance (38 U.S.C. 1922), and, subject to ? 13.56 of this chapter, disbursement of benefits. Such determinations are final and binding on field stations for these purposes.
RockIt
Banned
The letter you are posting has been used for YEARS and YEARS. It is nothing new. Here is some background for you:
Military veterans whose Veterans Affairs benefits are managed on their behalf by appointed fiduciary trustees are deemed “mentally defective” and reported to the FBI’s National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS), a computerized database which prohibits them from purchasing firearms.
Sen. Burr is the ranking Republican member of the Senate Committee on Veteran’s Affairs. His office told The Daily Caller that around 114,000 veterans have been reported to the NICS and are unable to purchase firearms.
Notice that the VA's rating is only supposed to be used for insurance and disbursement of funds. Someone in the .gov decided it was a good idea to send those records over to the NICS system. It is NOT the VA who is deciding to prohibit the vets from buying or owning guns. It is other agencies like BATFE via NICS.
What you also need to know is that this practice is being fought tooth and nail as we speak. I am not sure of where it is at right now?
However, the letter you are referring to is the second time a veteran is notified. When a veteran gets a letter like this one, he does need to fight it.
