Very simple question on single action for CCW

[drgrant]

While I agree it's not at all likely, all I need for my 1911 to go off is my sear to break.

This is wrong... and I can tell you it is, at least partially, because it happened to me, on a Series 70 gun, or at least the hooks on my sear sheared off at once, in an unclean break. I basically ended up with a gun that would only sit at the half cock notch, and the hammer would not drop any further.

-Mike

 

[M1911]

That explanation really clears things up. So out of curiousity, if they have a firing pin block already engineered in there, what is stopping them from making it a DA/SA gun vs. using the beaver-tail.

?

The firing pin block has nothing to do with DA/SA. There is nothing in the design of a 1911 that pulls the hammer back when you pull the trigger. In a 1911, the hammer is cocked solely by the motion of the slide, not by the trigger. If you made such a design, you would lose the purity of the 1911 trigger feel, which is the whole point of the gun.

I still don't like the actual safety, and currently am still partial to sig, but I am going to put a greater level of consideration towards the 1911 now.

SIGs are fine guns, but I don't see much difference in safety between a DA/SA SIG and a 1911 with a firing pin block. Nor do I see much difference in the required training.

With 1911, you have to learn to lower the safety during the draw -- as you draw the gun, when the barrel moves through a 45 degree angle with the ground, you lower the safety. Before you reholster, you reapply the thumb safety.

With a DA/SA SIG, you don't have to lower the safety on drawing, but you do have to learn to shoot the DA first shot, and then the follow up SA shot. Before you reholster the SIG, you must decock.

IMHO, it will take you longer to learn the DA/SA transition than it will take you to learn to operate the 1911 safety.

Don't get me wrong, SIGs are fine guns. I've owned 3 (still have one). I can understand why someone would prefer a SIG over a 1911. But I don't see a major difference in safety or training between the two.

 

[M1911]

This is wrong... and I can tell you it is, at least partially, because it happened to me, on a Series 70 gun, or at least the hooks on my sear sheared off at once, in an unclean break. I basically ended up with a gun that would only sit at the half cock notch, and the hammer would not drop any further.

Was it the points on your sear that broke or the points on your hammer?

 

[M1911]

A cuppla times, I forgot to put the thumb safety on and carried it around all day. When I discovered it the first time, I was alarmed. Then logic kicked in and I realized it still wouldn't go off unless I squeezed the grip and the trigger. It was still very safe even with the thumb safety off.

One of the members here used to carry a 1911 condition 0. It isn't my preferred condition, but I also don't freak out if my thumb safety wiped off.

 

[drgrant]

Was it the points on your sear that broke or the points on your hammer?

The points on the sear itself. the two little claw shaped things, the tips basically broke right off, although oddly enough one "finger" was still longer than the other.

-Mike

 

[TheRoland]

The points on the sear itself. the two little claw shaped things, the tips basically broke right off, although oddly enough one "finger" was still longer than the other.

-Mike

Aren't the two little claws on the bottom of the sear? It's the single wide point that would break to drop the hammer. Not that I've heard of this happening, but it is a single failure point.

Edit: Oh, I think I get it. That's lucky they still engaged the half-cock notch.

 

[drgrant]

Aren't the two little claws on the bottom of the sear? It's the single wide point that would break to drop the hammer. Not that I've heard of this happening, but it is a single failure point.

Edit: Oh, I think I get it. That's lucky they still engaged the half-cock notch.

Yeah, my guess is that, I got lucky and the part was still big enough to engage the half cock somehow. It was a very strange failure. It happened in the middle of a pin match, with a gun I beat on quite a bit.

-Mike

 

[M1911]

Edit: Oh, I think I get it. That's lucky they still engaged the half-cock notch.

Agreed. If they broke off further up, I suspect that the sear would not have engaged the half-cock notch.

 

[TheRoland]

For those readers not geeking out about 1911 internals, the bottom line is this: hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands have carried Series 70 1911s cocked and locked, and not been concerned about the very low probability of mechanical failure. Some of these 1911s were drop-safe, others were, in theory, not.

With a Series 80 or Swartz style 1911s, you're both drop-safe and insulated against mechanical failure.

But if you're still not comfortable compressing a spring behind a primer, then don't. There are plenty of alternatives. But there's a reason that even with these alternatives, the 1911 is still around.

 

[Chris]

Keep in mind that the original JMB design had no thumb safety as he felt the Grip safety was sufficient. The ARMY required it. If JMB didn't think it necessary, who are we to question him? (^_^)

 

[IPSC_DRL]

Condition One And Only

Texas Ranger Charlie Miller was minding his own business when a concerned citizen came up to him, noted the hammer cocked back on the big 1911 dangling from the Ranger's belt, and asked, "Isn't that dangerous?" Charlie replied, "I wouldn't carry the son-of-a-bitch if it wasn't dangerous."

 

[dagwag77]

IMHO, it will take you longer to learn the DA/SA transition than it will take you to learn to operate the 1911 safety.

Don't get me wrong, SIGs are fine guns. I've owned 3 (still have one). I can understand why someone would prefer a SIG over a 1911. But I don't see a major difference in safety or training between the two.

....or you can get a DAK or DAO Sig and you no longer have DA/SA transition to worry about, with all the other benefits.

To those of you who carry the 1911 cocked and locked: What do you think of Mas Ayoob's thoughts about "hair triggers" in court? (In sum, he theorizes based off Florida v. Alvarez, Magliato, and Crown v. Gossett, that in a stressful situation one may be more likely to have an AD/ND with a hair trigger; that the cocking of a gun sets up the stage for civil atty or prosecutor to argue negligence, negating a claim of self defense (although I think Ayoob means more civil than criminal...).

 

[M1911]

....or you can get a DAK or DAO Sig and you no longer have DA/SA transition to worry about, with all the other benefits.

To those of you who carry the 1911 cocked and locked: What do you think of Mas Ayoob's thoughts about "hair triggers" in court? (In sum, he theorizes based off Florida v. Alvarez, Magliato, and Crown v. Gossett, that in a stressful situation one may be more likely to have an AD/ND with a hair trigger; that the cocking of a gun sets up the stage for civil atty or prosecutor to argue negligence, negating a claim of self defense (although I think Ayoob means more civil than criminal...).

I've taken LFI-1 and LFI-2. His recommendation was that you keep the 1911 trigger at 4 1/2 lbs or more. Alvarez and Magliato used revolvers, with a single action trigger that was undoubtedly far lighter than 4 1/2 lbs. Ayoob did not recommend that you don't carry 1911s. He recommended that you keep the trigger at a reasonable weight, that's all. He likes 1911s. He carries them from time to time.

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob83.html

At the class that I took, he did recommend that you consider converting double action revolvers to double action only.

And no, you are absolutely incorrect about the civil versus criminal. See: http://www.thegunzone.com/ayoob/magliato-ayoob.html

 

[drgrant]

....or you can get a DAK or DAO Sig and you no longer have DA/SA transition to worry about, with all the other benefits.

What other benefits? Replacing a trigger which is marginal 5% of the time with one that is marginal 100% of the time? I'm not sure how that's a
benefit. the DAK "sucks less" but it still sucks. It would have been a lot better if they had tried to imitiate HKs LEM system, but I imagine a lawsuit would
have occurred. (on the LEM there is no weight penalty for using the short reset, like there is with the DAK).

To those of you who carry the 1911 cocked and locked: What do you think of Mas Ayoob's thoughts about "hair triggers" in court? (In sum, he theorizes based off Florida v. Alvarez, Magliato, and Crown v. Gossett, that in a stressful situation one may be more likely to have an AD/ND with a hair trigger; that the cocking of a gun sets up the stage for civil atty or prosecutor to argue negligence, negating a claim of self defense (although I think Ayoob means more civil than criminal...).

Oh, for the love of christ, and all that is holy.... not this again. Put down the gun rag. Burn it, actually, you'll be better off. I mean Mas has probably forgotten more than many of us will ever know... but seriously... his articles are not gospel, and I don't think even he intends them as such. Sometimes you have to read between the lines- the points he tries to get across are not always obvious. There is a lot to be learned from an ayoob article about the things he said as the things he didn't say.

All of that crap is moot- if you have drawn a gun on someone, it should be a situation where you would be justified in using deadly force, which basically renders the rest of it moot, unless you start second guessing your own decisions. If you have a lawyer that wants to use "the gun went off by accident" as any kind of a defense strategy, you need to find another lawyer, and fast. Your actions (or lack of) must be conscious, deliberate, and intentional.... if you don't think the platform you are using lends itself to this approach, then carry a different gun. Only you know what will work for you.

With a 1911, the gun starts cocked, so there is no "cocking"- just pointing and shooting; and the thumb safety gets disabled instinctively as part of the draw stroke.

-Mike