Very simple question on single action for CCW

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Hey all - I know CCW options are discussed in infinite detail on here. I however have never considered the subject much, so have a really, really basic question-

It would seem to me that a double action pistol would be the smartest way to go, since you can operate the firearm entirely with one movement (safety mechanism aside for a sec).

What was the intended use though for single action pistols, specifically, say, the 1911? I know there are different philosophies on it, but as it was issued in the Army and then distributed throughout the public, what were you "supposed" to do?

Always cocked seems dangerous to me (maybe I'm off here), and not cocked seems like it can cost you valuable precious time.

Thoughts?
 
On a 1911 cocked and locked (with a round in the pipe) is the only SAFE way to go. It was designed to be carried that way. If one can't deal with that, then they should probably carry something else.

-Mike
 
Hey all - I know CCW options are discussed in infinite detail on here. I however have never considered the subject much, so have a really, really basic question-

It would seem to me that a double action pistol would be the smartest way to go, since you can operate the firearm entirely with one movement (safety mechanism aside for a sec).

What was the intended use though for single action pistols, specifically, say, the 1911? I know there are different philosophies on it, but as it was issued in the Army and then distributed throughout the public, what were you "supposed" to do?

Always cocked seems dangerous to me (maybe I'm off here), and not cocked seems like it can cost you valuable precious time.

Thoughts?

There is nothing dangerous about a cocked and locked SA pistol like a 1911. That's the way it's designed to be carried. You can train to disengage the safety during the draw, and it easily becomes second nature. I personally carry a DAO [grenade]27.
 
Single action Auto: Cocked and locked, as intended.

Single action revolver: Hammer down, either on an empty chamber (old style revolvers) or a loaded chamber (transfer bar style ignition).
 
Always cocked seems dangerous to me (maybe I'm off here), and not cocked seems like it can cost you valuable precious time.
Thoughts?

You are.

The 1911 should be carried cocked and locked. It takes three actions to make the pistol fire: click the thumb safety off, depress the grip safety, and pull the trigger. How is that less safe than a revolver or a double action?
 
It is entirely personal preference and what you are comfortable with. Single action, DAO, DA/SA can all be carried safely. I prefer something like an M&P over a 1911 simply because I don't want to deal with a thumb safety. There are many people on this forum that carry a 1911 cocked and locked every day, with no problems whatsoever.
 
You are not alone in your trepidation against carrying "cocked and locked". While I have eight single action pistols, I enjoy shooting them at the range however I never carry them. When I'm not carrying a revolver, I carry a Para P-6 LDA. I practice a lot with my carry guns and am comfortable with them. Choose whatever you are comfortable with and practice a lot with it.
 
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It is entirely personal preference and what you are comfortable with. Single action, DAO, DA/SA can all be carried safely. I prefer something like an M&P over a 1911 simply because I don't want to deal with a thumb safety. There are many people on this forum that carry a 1911 cocked and locked every day, with no problems whatsoever.

*raises hand* [smile]
 
After much reading, I wouldn't hesitate to carry a 1911 C&L'ed. Now I just need the money for a good quality one....Maybe a custom bob-tail mainspring from Remsport? [wink]
 
Single Action Autoloading Pistols (like the 1911) are intended to be carried loaded, hammer cocked and safety on. It is safe in that condition. To fire, the safety must be disengaged, grip safety depressed and trigger pulled.

If your safety disengages on its own (loose or worn) it should be fixed.
If the gun can be fired without the grip safety depressed, it should be fixed.

If you are concerned about your pistol accidentally going off, consider which of those three actions can occur accidentally, now consider all three at once. If you're still concerned, it's time to consider an alternate CCW
 
If you are concerned about your pistol accidentally going off, consider which of those three actions can occur accidentally, now consider all three at once. If you're still concerned, it's time to consider an alternate CCW

Because the gun I shoot most is striker-fired, I fail to disengage the manual safety before applying rear-ward pressure to a gun's trigger under simulated stress. Obviously, this is a training issue, but there are non-safety reasons not to carry a 1911.
 
It would seem to me that a double action pistol would be the smartest way to go, since you can operate the firearm entirely with one movement (safety mechanism aside for a sec).
There are pros and cons to every type of action. Pick your poison.

What was the intended use though for single action pistols, specifically, say, the 1911? I know there are different philosophies on it, but as it was issued in the Army and then distributed throughout the public, what were you "supposed" to do?
The Army does a lot of stupid things (e.g., clearing barrels at bases in war zones). Just because the Army has followed some cockamamie procedure in the past doesn't mean it is wise.

There are several different ways to carry a 1911:

Condition 0: chamber full, hammer cocked, safety off
Condition 1: chamber full, hammer cocked, safety on
Condition 2: chamber full, hammer down, safety off
Condition 3: chamber empty, hammer down, safety off

Of those, I greatly prefer condition 1. It always surprises me how some folks think a striker-fired gun like a Glock or S&W M&P are "safe" but they are scared by a 1911 in condition 1. Glocks and 1911s both have triggers that are fairly light (about 5 lbs out of the box) with short travels.

Let's compare some of the ways people do stupid things, and what might happen with the two action types. Let's say you draw the gun and while drawing you get your finger on the trigger and pull before the gun clears your leg. If you do that with a Glock, you'll probably shoot yourself. If you do that with a 1911 and you lowered the safety too soon, you'll probably shoot yourself. If you do that with a 1911 and you didn't lower the safety too soon, then nothing happens. Which is better?

Now suppose you are reholstering and leave your finger on the trigger while doing so. Your holster stops your finger, the gun keeps moving, and the trigger consequently gets pulled. If you do that with a Glock, you get a negligent discharge. If you do that with a 1911 and you forgot to apply the thumb safety, you get a negligent discharge. If you do that with a 1911 and you remembered to apply the safety, nothing happens. Which is better?

1911s and Glocks and M&Ps can all be carried and handled safely. 1911s and Glocks and M&Ps can all be carried and handled unsafely. Yes, with a 1911 you have to spend some training time to master the safety. IMHO, you'll have to spend at least as much time training to master the Glocks mushy, crunchy, nasty trigger.

You can make either work if you do your part. You can shoot yourself with either if you don't do your part. Pick your poison.

Always cocked seems dangerous to me (maybe I'm off here), and not cocked seems like it can cost you valuable precious time.
Why would "always cocked" be dangerous? What is it that you are worried about? You do realize that Series 80 and Swartz-style 1911s (S&W and Kimber II) can only discharge if either the trigger is pulled (Series 80) or the grip safety is depressed (Swartz), because each one has a firing pin block? A Series 70 can discharge if the sear tip breaks or if you drop it from a high enough height onto a hard enough surface.

Do you have an AR15? Does a loaded AR15 make you nervous? Do you realize that an AR15 is single action, has no firing pin block, and has a floating firing pin that is much heavier (i.e., has more inertia) than a 1911? Just about all long guns are single actions without firing pin blocks, but people are more scared of 1911s. I never will get it.

I do not recommend carrying condition 2. It is far faster and less fumble-prone to lower the safety than to manually cock the gun, particularly if it has a beavertail safety. Furthermore, lowering the hammer manually on a loaded chamber can result in a negligent discharge if you are not careful.
 
Now suppose you are reholstering and leave your finger on the trigger while doing so. Your holster stops your finger, the gun keeps moving, and the trigger consequently gets pulled. If you do that with a Glock, you get a negligent discharge. If you do that with a 1911 and you forgot to apply the thumb safety, you get a negligent discharge.****** If you do that with a 1911 and you remembered to apply the safety, nothing happens. Which is better?

***** only if you have the grip safety depressed. Most likely it will not be depressed as you re-holster. It might be but might not also, depending on how you hold the grip while re holstering. Most times it takes a firm and decisive grip to make sure the grip safety is disengaged.

It's actually probably safer than you indicate.
 
Heh, why am I not surprised I got a torrent of useful info off this question! :) Thanks guys, all I needed to know.
 
I could see where the sight of a 1911 with the hammer cocked could make those not familiar with the workings of the pistol a bit nervous. Jack.

I agree. I could easily see how the look might concern people. I know it is just as safe as others, if not more, but it does take some getting used too.
 
It took me a while to get used to carrying my 1911 in condition 1. It was only after I understood how the gun worked that I was comfortable with the fact that it would not go off on its own unless I did something stupid or there was a mechanical failure.

After much reading, I wouldn't hesitate to carry a 1911 C&L'ed. Now I just need the money for a good quality one....Maybe a custom bob-tail mainspring from Remsport? [wink]

I highly recommend Remsport.
 
I agree. I could easily see how the look might concern people. I know it is just as safe as others, if not more, but it does take some getting used too.
For folks who are concerned about it, take your 1911 and unload it. Cock it and apply the safety. Now carry it around the house that way for a week. At the end of the week, come back to us and tell us if the hammer ever fell.

The 1911 I keep for home defense has had its hammer cocked for years. In fact, it is always cocked except when I'm cleaning it after practice with it.
 
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I suppose it's not really worth delving into *why* I assumed it was a dangerous situation, since you all have your intimate understanding of the mechanics, but if you care...

I am not terribly well versed in handguns - I have decent working knowledge and quite a bit of proficiency in shooting them accurately, more from fundamentals than anything. But I don't have much mechanical sense for their inner workings.

To me, a cocked weapon, no matter how many mechanisms are in place, reads as a spring under tension. If a rock fell out of the sky and crushed the lower parts of my pistol, maybe the checks go out of place and the hammer can fall. I'm not giving you rational answers here, I'm giving you perception. Put another way, if you begin hypothetically "removing" pieces of a cocked 1911, eventually the hammer could fall and ignite one.

With a double action revolver, it takes conscious pressure to move the hammer *into* a dangerous position. Again, put another way, there's no "potential energy" stored in this position. You could remove or disable as many pieces as you want - it still couldn't ignite a primer from that position.

As to why this puts me less at ease than a rifle, I don't ever carry a rifle cocked and locked either :). But I get the analogy. To me, and again, all based on perception here, if I were slinging around a rifle cocked and locked, I'd still be more at ease because the muzzle wouldn't constantly be pointed right into my flesh. Rational? No. But a lot more comforting.

Anyway, I don't dare try to flare this up as a logical debate - I'm sure you 1911 carriers have myriad reasons and logic why this is as stable as any other platform. I'm just providing background on why, as a non-carrier, I thought about it the way I did.
 
I am not terribly well versed in handguns - I have decent working knowledge and quite a bit of proficiency in shooting them accurately, more from fundamentals than anything. But I don't have much mechanical sense for their inner workings.

Spend 10 or 20 minutes looking at how a 1911 goes together, and you'll understand why most of us
have this viewpoint. Things make a lot more sense when you see how things would actually have to fail in order to cause a discharge. In a 1911 you're asking for a LOT of things to fail at once for the hammer to fall and fire the gun, and it certainly isn't rational.

-Mike
 
Cocked and locked and a grip safety is about as safe as it gets. Plus you get a trigger that is light years beyond what any DA can do. Maybe not necessary for ccw needs, but great for shooting targets. You also get 9 reliable rounds of 45 ACP in a slimmer profile than a comparable revolver. Revolver will be more reliable though.
 
Spend 10 or 20 minutes looking at how a 1911 goes together, and you'll understand why most of us
have this viewpoint. Things make a lot more sense when you see how things would actually have to fail in order to cause a discharge. In a 1911 you're asking for a LOT of things to fail at once for the hammer to fall and fire the gun, and it certainly isn't rational.

-Mike

While I agree it's not at all likely, all I need for my 1911 to go off is my sear to break. Modern 1911s need, what, two or three parts to break simultaneously? It's really really unlikely, but I don't think it's accurate to say that tons of things have to go wrong.
 
To me, a cocked weapon, no matter how many mechanisms are in place, reads as a spring under tension. If a rock fell out of the sky and crushed the lower parts of my pistol, maybe the checks go out of place and the hammer can fall. I'm not giving you rational answers here, I'm giving you perception. Put another way, if you begin hypothetically "removing" pieces of a cocked 1911, eventually the hammer could fall and ignite one.
I'll see if I can explain it better.

There are two main types of 1911s: those without firing pin safeties and those with, there being two subtypes of 1911s with firing safeties. Most 1911s do not have firing pin safeties (Series 70). Those that do have firing pin safeties are usually one of two varieties: Series 80 or Swartz style.

NO FIRING PIN SAFETY -- Series 70
With a Series 70 gun (Colt Series 70, Kimber I, Springfield, Wilson Combat, Les Baer, most any custom), the firing pin is kept off of the primer by a simple firing pin retaining spring. If you drop it from a high enough height onto a hard enough surface, the inertia of the firing pin might overcome the pressure from the firing pin retaining spring and cause it to fire. This can happen even without the hammer falling.

1911s have a two notches on the hammer. The main notch intercepts the sear and that is what keeps the gun cocked. But there is another notch on the hammer -- the half cock notch:

25.jpg

If the hammer hooks fail on a cocked hammer, the hammer will rotate, but the sear will intercept the hammer at the half-cock notch. So the hammer should not fall all the way, but should instead stop at the half-cock position. However, if the sear point fails, then the hammer will fall and a Series 70 will most likely discharge. I can't say as I've ever seen that happen.

Some folks use extra strength firing pin retaining springs (available from Wolff) to reduce the chance of a discharge in case of a dropped gun.

FIRING PIN SAFETY - SERIES 80
The Series 80 guns (Colt Series 80, Para Ordnance, SIG GSR) have a firing pin block. There is a plunger in the slide that fits into a notch in the firing pin. Here's a cutaway of the Series 80 lockwork:
45samp6.jpg


The firing pin simply can not move unless the plunger is pushed up out of the way. Even if the hammer fell, the firing pin can't move with the plunger in place. When you pull the trigger, the trigger bow moves a lever, which cams up another lever, which pushes up on the plunger on the bottom of the slide. That moves the plunger out of the way of the firing pin. As a result of the firing pin safety, the Series 80 is drop safe. In addition, even if the sear point fails and the hammer falls, the Series 80 won't discharge, because of the firing pin safety.

FIRING PIN SAFETY - SWARTZ STYLE
The Swartz style guns (S&W, Kimber II) have a firing pin block that is activated by the grip safety. When you depress the grip safety, the firing pin block is moved out of the way. Just like the Series 80, the Swartz style guns should not discharge if you drop them or if your sear point fails (provided you do not have the grip safety depressed at that time).

SUMMARY
The Series 70 system is the simplest, with the fewest parts and a top notch trigger feel. The Series 80 has a few more parts, is a bit harder to put back together if you do a detail strip, and it is a bit harder for a gunsmith to get as good a trigger feel as a Series 70. The Swartz style system does not impact the trigger feel, but the grip safety must be well fitted or you can get a failure-to-go-bang.

Anyway, I don't dare try to flare this up as a logical debate - I'm sure you 1911 carriers have myriad reasons and logic why this is as stable as any other platform. I'm just providing background on why, as a non-carrier, I thought about it the way I did.
No problem. I hope the information above helps you understand the issues better. Some folks are not comfortable with the Series 70 due to its lack of firing pin safety. It doesn't bother me, but it does bother some folks for understandable reasons.
 
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Cocked and locked and a grip safety is about as safe as it gets. Plus you get a trigger that is light years beyond what any DA can do. Maybe not necessary for ccw needs, but great for shooting targets. You also get 9 reliable rounds of 45 ACP in a slimmer profile than a comparable revolver. Revolver will be more reliable though.

While revolvers are more reliable, when they do go down, they are usually down for the count
 
Look, if you're not comfortable with a cocked and locked gun, then don't get one. Sig makes some DA/SA steel guns that are as nice as most 1911s. But they won't have as nice a trigger and your safety factor is improved only infinitesimally.
 
That explanation really clears things up. So out of curiousity, if they have a firing pin block already engineered in there, what is stopping them from making it a DA/SA gun vs. using the beaver-tail.

For the record, this description is helping to shape my first handgun purchase decision (half a year away, hopefully!), and seeing how the firing pin safety works increases my comfort around using the 1911 as a carry gun. I still don't like the actual safety, and currently am still partial to sig, but I am going to put a greater level of consideration towards the 1911 now. My girlfriend loves them, maybe she could buy the 1911, hmm.

Mike
 
A cuppla times, I forgot to put the thumb safety on and carried it around all day. When I discovered it the first time, I was alarmed. Then logic kicked in and I realized it still wouldn't go off unless I squeezed the grip and the trigger. It was still very safe even with the thumb safety off.
 
That explanation really clears things up. So out of curiousity, if they have a firing pin block already engineered in there, what is stopping them from making it a DA/SA gun vs. using the beaver-tail.

Because the trigger (at least on Series 70 and Schwarz) only pushes the diconnector/sear, which is why the triggers on 1911s are so great. Making them DA/SA adds complexity.
 
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