Varget vs ShootersWorld PrecisionRifle comparison

[paul73]

So, one more of my tests here - i was curious to find out for myself, and it may be useful to some degree to others who did not go yet too deep into that, as both powders are very difficult to get now. Test is on .223 20" AR15 rifle, 69gr SMK projectile seated same way at stock length, #450 cci primer.

Those 2 powders are claimed to be identical, but they are not exactly same. Varget is heavier and more compact, so the 25gr of varget are close in a volume to 24.4gr of PR, somewhat.

Here below are 50 shots in 24.2gr-25gr of varget (targets 1-5) compared to 40 shots or PR.
My developed load was 25gr of a PR - target 10 has 5 shots from old batch, this new batch in target 9 somehow is way inferior to that, which is interesting, but this new batch was using different brass i did not prep as meticulously as previous one, go figure. speed and SD matches, but groups do not, but, whatever.

So, to note the diffs - the 24.4gr varget gave the best group, at 2743 speed.
Same weight 24.4gr of PR powder gives 2670 speed and a somewhat comparable group. with more weight in loads varget spreads out, but PR tightens.

25gr varget gave 2785fps, 25gr PR gives 2760fps. Close, but not exactly same - diff closes at 25gr on compressed loads, but with lesser loads the gap in speed grows.




PS. stuff like on target 2 is extremely puzzling to me. lower 3 shots went into the same hole. rest 7 did spread 3/4" higher into a 3/4" circle. how come? go figure.
target 1 is also quite annoying - 3 in the dead center, 5 in a circle around and 2 somehow way on a side. i will retest that.

 

[akma]

@paul73 I'm no great reloader and have had similar results. Frustrating to say the least. Makes you crazy kinda thing.

 

[paul73]

@paul73 I'm no great reloader and have had similar results. Frustrating to say the least. Makes you crazy kinda thing.

yeah, i am not particularly frustrated with it all, just some info i would expect to exist already - such as a comparison above, but it is quite difficult to find. a lot of folks on forums were claiming that both those powders are the same exact formula, i do not see it to be exactly so. close, but, not really same. varget also has way more distinct smell, and makes more smoke.

 

[mac1911]

So, one more of my tests here - i was curious to find out for myself, and it may be useful to some degree to others who did not go yet too deep into that, as both powders are very difficult to get now. Test is on .223 20" AR15 rifle, 69gr SMK projectile seated same way at stock length, #450 cci primer.

Those 2 powders are claimed to be identical, but they are not exactly same. Varget is heavier and more compact, so the 25gr of varget are close in a volume to 24.4gr of PR, somewhat.

Here below are 50 shots in 24.2gr-25gr of varget (targets 1-5) compared to 40 shots or PR.
My developed load was 25gr of a PR - target 10 has 5 shots from old batch, this new batch in target 9 somehow is way inferior to that, which is interesting, but this new batch was using different brass i did not prep as meticulously as previous one, go figure. speed and SD matches, but groups do not, but, whatever.

So, to note the diffs - the 24.4gr varget gave the best group, at 2743 speed.
Same weight 24.4gr of PR powder gives 2670 speed and a somewhat comparable group. with more weight in loads varget spreads out, but PR tightens.

25gr varget gave 2785fps, 25gr PR gives 2760fps. Close, but not exactly same - diff closes at 25gr on compressed loads, but with lesser loads the gap in speed grows.

View attachment 588324


PS. stuff like on target 2 is extremely puzzling to me. lower 3 shots went into the same hole. rest 7 did spread 3/4" higher into a 3/4" circle. how come? go figure.
target 1 is also quite annoying - 3 in the dead center, 5 in a circle around and 2 somehow way on a side. i will retest that.

Shooters World Precision is made in Czech Republic and Varget in Australia even if they used the same batches of base materials the lots would not be the same. Even varget from lot to lot can have fairly large changes in performance. A reason loading manuals tell you to work loads up with different lot# of powder

I notice in your post your generally pushing max loads, not always ideal for accuracy. My short stint with shooters world powder - match rifle was a cery small window at max loads for tight groups and a small variation in powder charge played havoc on groups.

Match rifle with a 69 smk with 25gn gave me just under 3000 fps and when my eyes and trigger where in sync was a sub moa capable combo
I will tell you my most consistent groups came in at 22.5 gn from 22.5-24.5 groups where all over ?

I will add 25 gn Varget with the 69 SMK does well out of my 20” 1/8 service rifle upper and has a pretty wide window for powder charge variations. +\- .3 grains shows little on target.
Ive pushed the 69s with as much as 26gn of varget but again that area between 25.3 and 26 does odd things

 

[paul73]

Shooters World Precision is made in Czech Republic and Varget in Australia even if they used the same batches of base materials the lots would not be the same. Even varget from lot to lot can have fairly large changes in performance. A reason loading manuals tell you to work loads up with different lot# of powder

I notice in your post your generally pushing max loads, not always ideal for accuracy. My short stint with shooters world powder - match rifle was a cery small window at max loads for tight groups and a small variation in powder charge played havoc on groups.

Match rifle with a 69 smk with 25gn gave me just under 3000 fps and when my eyes and trigger where in sync was a sub moa capable combo
I will tell you my most consistent groups came in at 22.5 gn from 22.5-24.5 groups where all over ?

I will add 25 gn Varget with the 69 SMK does well out of my 20” 1/8 service rifle upper and has a pretty wide window for powder charge variations. +\- .3 grains shows little on target.
Ive pushed the 69s with as much as 26gn of varget but again that area between 25.3 and 26 does odd things

25gn of PR gives me 2760fps speed from my ar15 and was ok-ish reliable at 3/4 moa groups. I want there max flat distance and max supersonic duration. With varget I will test lesser loads also, for now in 24.2-24.4. I want to sort out varget load now.

To go to down to 22gr is doable, but not sure how practical that is for anything other than shooting paper.
25.0-25.2 PR was actually pretty consistent for me so far, and it is not a max load at all. 62gr m855 shoots at 3000fps from same rifle, typically grouped at 1.5-1 moa, not too bad.

Generally I want ideally a consistent 1/2 or 3/4 moa load with 2700+ speed for that 69gr SMK. I think I should be able to get it. To settle with 2600-2700 speed window would be less optimal, but probably also acceptable.

 

[paul73]

Also I think I heated up barrel quite well at the end of a 100 rounds test. That can also be behind bs at last target 9, that barrel has a thing for poi to move about of an inch at some temp threshold.

Rifle was zeroed previously for those 25gr loads to hit the dead center of the target.

 

[mac1911]

25gn of PR gives me 2760fps speed from my ar15 and was ok-ish reliable at 3/4 moa groups. I want there max flat distance and max supersonic duration. With varget I will test lesser loads also, for now in 24.2-24.4. I want to sort out varget load now.

To go to down to 22gr is doable, but not sure how practical that is for anything other than shooting paper.
25.0-25.2 PR was actually pretty consistent for me so far, and it is not a max load at all. 62gr m855 shoots at 3000fps from same rifle, typically grouped at 1.5-1 moa, not too bad.

Generally I want ideally a consistent 1/2 or 3/4 moa load with 2700+ speed for that 69gr SMK. I think I should be able to get it. To settle with 2600-2700 speed window would be less optimal, but probably also acceptable.

I have heard this many times with varget
and other powders from some service rifle shooters. Load varget to you see signs of pressure or pop primers then back off lightly.
Precisions Rifle iirc had compressed loads for 223/556 ?
If you have a goal in mind try to get there. IDK why this is in my head but If I was looking for flat , fast, energy down range I think I would push 77s at mag length?

 

[mac1911]

25gn of PR gives me 2760fps speed from my ar15 and was ok-ish reliable at 3/4 moa groups. I want there max flat distance and max supersonic duration. With varget I will test lesser loads also, for now in 24.2-24.4. I want to sort out varget load now.

To go to down to 22gr is doable, but not sure how practical that is for anything other than shooting paper.
25.0-25.2 PR was actually pretty consistent for me so far, and it is not a max load at all. 62gr m855 shoots at 3000fps from same rifle, typically grouped at 1.5-1 moa, not too bad.

Generally I want ideally a consistent 1/2 or 3/4 moa load with 2700+ speed for that 69gr SMK. I think I should be able to get it. To settle with 2600-2700 speed window would be less optimal, but probably also acceptable.

What rifle , m855 ugh ….im not putting that stuff down any barrel until SHTF your lucky to get sub 2moa …. I can usually hold decent groups with m855 but just far to many flyers.
I know powder is a bitch to get and your trying ti run Varget …. For some reason Alliant pro powder comes to mind for really bumping 223 velocities.
Pro Varmint i think. Or one of the “pro” variants can get a 77 grain pill to 2800+ fps out of a AR?
Fun stuff …. Like seeing your results . I sure the hell dont have time for it anymore

 

[paul73]

If I was looking for flat , fast, energy down range I think I would push 77s at mag length?

i tried several combinations with 77gr, none of them shoots well with my barrel - averages around of 1.5moa somewhat. i was able to get groups of 10 to be very tight with 25gr PR, not sure.
if you look at target 9 you will see how 3 of shots layed into the middle of the circle. they all were supposed to be in there same way, i had it like that.
now what i observe there - what i had before was a target 7 like grouping, but it was supposed to be right in the middle of the target. it is not a single rugged hole group, but, i can live with that.

again, it may be due to the fact i did most of my tests in winter, it was cold. now it is warmer. will see.

both PR and varget do compressed loads on any 24gr+ drop, PR a bit more as it is more in volume for the same weight. i really think the 2750fps for 69gr bullet is a sweet spot to be, 25.3 pushes it to 2800 and actually all of them did work - so i just need to do more shooting. last test was on a 50deg day, again. i may see the effect of a temperature change from 30deg, i did not think it can be that much, but, who knows. will try to re-run it again next week.

m855 is the SHTF ammo indeed, i keep it loaded in the pre-ban 30rd mags. just good to know it works ok.

 

[paul73]

What rifle , m855 ugh ….im not putting that stuff down any barrel until SHTF your lucky to get sub 2moa …. I can usually hold decent groups with m855 but just far to many flyers.
I know powder is a bitch to get and your trying ti run Varget …. For some reason Alliant pro powder comes to mind for really bumping 223 velocities.
Pro Varmint i think. Or one of the “pro” variants can get a 77 grain pill to 2800+ fps out of a AR?
Fun stuff …. Like seeing your results . I sure the hell dont have time for it anymore

i sorted out my varget load for .223 - ran what i assumed to be a good weight with a ladder for seating depth and got some more or less consistent results - seems like 0.008 deeper than stock seems to work ok-ish, with a window from -.005 to -.010.
odd why POI migrated to the right a bit there, but, who cares if it will remain consistent.

 

[paul73]

also tried to sort out .308 loads, but with less success, again. i got something at least not as bad as it was before - seems like a 44.0 load with 2.808 depth seems to work.

44.3gr loads are that infuriates me - targets 24/25 - dunno what statistical probability it is for 2 pairs to connect like that so far apart. total BS.
but if 44.0gr with +0.008" seating will work like on target 20 - why not, it is acceptable for an 18" 308 service rifle. one flier to the side i discard for now.

 

[dw617]

Nice work... I scored 16LB of Precision last year and have it earmarked as a Varget replacement, should the well run dry. Fortunately, I'm good with Varget for another 2-3 years based on how I shoot.

So, I load 24.0 varget under a 77, what is your recommendation for Precision?

 

[mac1911]

Nice work... I scored 16LB of Precision last year and have it earmarked as a Varget replacement, should the well run dry. Fortunately, I'm good with Varget for another 2-3 years based on how I shoot.

So, I load 24.0 varget under a 77, what is your recommendation for Precision?

I think the precision/match are much like most 223/556 fill it crunch it shoot it.
I really need to get to reading this year and let some if my 77s fly free

 

[paul73]

Nice work... I scored 16LB of Precision last year and have it earmarked as a Varget replacement, should the well run dry. Fortunately, I'm good with Varget for another 2-3 years based on how I shoot.

So, I load 24.0 varget under a 77, what is your recommendation for Precision?

You will need to test it with checking speed. At 24gr PR will have less speed than varget, but in my rifle same speed produced different groupings- means rate of burn still differs a bit. My guess is you will need 24.3gr for a match, but, test it.

I just accepted the fact for varget load to differ from PR. Both shoot great, for me.
But, still - 24.2gr varget - 2740fps, 25gr PR - 2760fps, quite a diff.
24gr under a 77 bullet should be decently fast I guess. Depends upon a barrel of course, as sierra guides one says 69gr bullet needs 21.2gr varget to get 2700fps, other one says 24.9gr. I get 2740 with 24.2gr.

 

[mac1911]

You will need to test it with checking speed. At 24gr PR will have less speed than varget, but in my rifle same speed produced different groupings- means rate of burn still differs a bit. My guess is you will need 24.3gr for a match, but, test it.

I just accepted the fact for varget load to differ from PR. Both shoot great, for me.
But, still - 24.2gr varget - 2740fps, 25gr PR - 2760fps, quite a diff.
24gr under a 77 bullet should be decently fast I guess. Depends upon a barrel of course, as sierra guides one says 69gr bullet needs 21.2gr varget to get 2700fps, other one says 24.9gr. I get 2740 with 24.2gr.

Does the longer barrel account for that variation?
Sierra AR15 data is tested on 20” 1-7 twist? This is from a older manual?
But 25.3 is their accuracy load at 2750?
Same manual list 223 24” 1-14 barrel
26.4 grains varget 69smk at 3100fps… fun stuff
O

 

[paul73]

Does the longer barrel account for that variation?
Sierra AR15 data is tested on 20” 1-7 twist? This is from a older manual?
But 25.3 is their accuracy load at 2750?
Same manual list 223 24” 1-14 barrel
26.4 grains varget 69smk at 3100fps… fun stuff
O
View attachment 591410

yeah - enjoy:


i do not trust any of that stuff too much anymore. chrono - range - my own data, and inspect all brass for marks and listen to your gun.
when it gets close to too much punch it shows and rifle rings very distinctively.

i got that 69SMK pushed up to 3100fps - but the accuracy is pure shit at that speed. the 2740-2760 seems to be a sweet spot and it is acceptable enough for me. plus it matches quite close their posted accuracy load speed on the left.

 

[mac1911]

yeah - enjoy:
View attachment 591417

i do not trust any of that stuff too much anymore. chrono - range - my own data, and inspect all brass for marks and listen to your gun.
when it gets close to too much punch it shows and rifle rings very distinctively.

i got that 69SMK pushed up to 3100fps - but the accuracy is pure shit at that speed. the 2740-2760 seems to be a sweet spot and it is acceptable enough for me. plus it matches quite close their posted accuracy load speed on the left.

Absolutely 10 plus years ago when I was shooting service rifle the load was
Keep stuffing it till you see signs of over pressure then back off a touch.

 

[snd1t]

5.56

5.56 AR15 reviews

www.natoreloading.com

Good resource for reference/data.....keep in mind some of their loads are over vendor suggested load data......

 

[paul73]

last comparison done today - left one is 25gr PR, 2 to the right are 24.3 varget. same speed, samoe POI, but varget groups better.
last group to the right i adjusted windage on a scope a bit to make it centered. last group is also 10 shots, 6 grouped nicely around the dot.

 

[paul73]

it is so nice just to get a load that 'works'. here is a same 24.2gr varget load at same seating set for my 20" larue stealth, shot from a 16" larue predatAr - with a 1-10x lpvo scope.
love it. it is 5 shots there. or 6. it is a bitch to aim at the sharpie mark that small with a 10x scope at 100yds.