using SM Rifle primer in place of small pistol?

[The Anchor]

anyone have any issues with shooting small rifle primers in any S&W revolvers? anyone try them in a sig? i have a few K that i was planning on trading for sm pistol, but if they will work in my wheel guns, then really no need to trade?

 

[shapiroeric]

You can use them.....the small rifle primers are much harder and depending on your gun it may be a problem as far as getting the pin to ignite the primer....my guess is the a S&W revolver will work just fine....

 

[spt_1955]

The subject of this thread is USING SMALL RIFLE PRIMERS FOR RELOADING PISTOL ROUNDS INSTEAD OF SMALL PISTOL PRIMERS (I'll explain why I yelled this out later on).

I wanted to resurrect this thread as opposed to starting a new one because of what is going on with the scarcity of small pistol primers and the ridiculous prices being paid for them now. Trust me the price of small rifle primers is still high and supply is spotty but they are more available/affordable than SPP right now. I've known for years that USPSA Open shooters often use small rifle primers in their 38 Super and 9MM Major loads but it was not until last week that I realized from friends that this was not common knowledge ESPECIALLY with people new to reloading.

After hearing this past weekend that a friend paid $150 for 1000 SPP when SRP's are readily available for 1/3rd that price I decided to post this.

I just loaded 60 rounds of 9MM using my USPSA competition loads for 124 and 147gr bullets. Both loads average 131 Power Factor. For you non action shooters that means they are reduced power/reduced recoil but no "popcorn" or "powderpuff" loads. I loaded 10 rounds each using Wolf KVB-223 Small Rifle Standard (see note below), CCI #400 small rifle primers, and Federal #205 small rifle primers. I loaded both 124 an 147 grain bullets (so 60 bullets total).

I shot the loads through a CZ Shadow 2 with a 13lb hammer spring (very light trigger) and a Glock G34 with Wolff reduced power springs in it. Here are the results :

Wolf Small Rifle KVB-223 - the chrono results from both guns was virtually identical (+/- 3 FPS) to the Federal SPP primers that I normally use. The primers ignited 3 out of 5 times in the CZ and 4 out of 5 in the G34. One of the failures to ignite in the CZ fired the second time. The single failure to ignite in the Glock fired the second time.

CCI #400 - The chrono results were virtually identical (+/- 3FPS) to the Federal SPP primers that I normally use and the rounds ignited 100% of the time from both guns.

Federal #205 - The chrono results for the 124 gr bullets was 16 FPS faster than the last group chrono'd with the Federal SPP. (1077 FPS vs 1061). Given that the results for the 147 gr load was again identical I'm attributing the difference to something other than the primer. (was last groups of the day maybe barrel was hotter? Maybe for this load the powder dropped 4.29 gr vs 4.20 gr?). The bullet ignited 100% of the time for both guns.

Interpretation of results - My testing shows that there is no actual difference in the results of loading my 9MM with SRP instead of SPP. I certainly would not load match bullets with the Wolf (because of the failure to ignite rate) but would not hesitate with the Federal and would use the CCI if I needed to. In fact I would use the Federal or CCI SRP instead of Winchester SPP for match bullets as my actual failure rate with Winchester SPP in my CZ Shadow 2 is pretty high.

A. WHY I YELLED. While I fully expect this thread to elicit comments that wander from the premise I was shocked (not really) at the ridiculous out of context remarks in the previous threads like "Sure you can use them but it is dangerous".

B. Interesting fact - The Wolf primers are Tula KVB-223M. They are marketed by Tula as Small Rifle Magnum and by Wolf as "non Corrosive" Small Rifle Standard (NCSR- 223REM). The wolf literature sys that they are designed to be used in AR type rifle with "floating firing pins" and have harder cups. Why Tula markets them as Magnum is beyond me. I always assumed magnum would be hotter.

 

[Smokewagon]

There has been a few much newer threads/posts on this exact topic. I commented with my results over a chrono with my 9mm loads in one or two of them..

 

[spt_1955]

There has been a few much newer threads/posts on this exact topic. I commented with my results over a chrono with my 9mm loads in one or two of them..

I chose this thread because it is was specific to small rifle in lieu of small pistol. As I said in the post the other threads seem to wander all over the place with people making statements like "it's dangerous" and my favorite "once you start shooting over 100 yards ......." I'll keep that in mind next time I push my 9MM Glock out to 600 yards!!!!!

 

[dcmdon]

Botton line is that if you take the 2.5 lb striker spring out of your Glock and aren't going for maximum loads it will be fine.

Any gun with a stock striker spring should be fine

 

[dcmdon]

I'm going to make up 50 this week to test. I'll let yoou all know how they work in my G34 with a 3# striker spring. As well as any other 9mm I have.

 

[Uzi2]

I've been loading SR primers in pistol loads for over 20 years without issue. I even stopped buying SP primers for a very long time and didn't keep any around until just recently.

 

[Broc]

You can replace SP with SR. Plenty of people that compete do it.

If you are near the max load, back down a little.

After hearing this past weekend that a friend paid $150 for 1000 SPP when SRP's are readily available for 1/3rd that price I decided to post this.

Your friend got robbed. Availability and price of SR and SP is the same (excluding the one off going for $600 on Gun Broker).

Online, I see both out of stock and I see both at the same price.

It is nice to see your competition gun had no issues igniting Federal SRP. People always say they are harder. I have 5K I will reload and would like to use them to compete.

 

[Mountain]

You can replace SP with SR. Plenty of people that compete do it.

If you are near the max load, back down a little.



Your friend got robbed. Availability and price of SR and SP is the same (excluding the one off going for $600 on Gun Broker).

Online, I see both out of stock and I see both at the same price.

It is nice to see your competition gun had no issues igniting Federal SRP. People always say they are harder. I have 5K I will reload and would like to use them to compete.

So you can confirm that SR's are perfectly reliable in Colt clones?

 

[Broc]

So you can confirm that SR's are perfectly reliable in Colt clones?

Never tried them in a Colt clone. But they should work. But I had no issues in my dream.

 

[Mountain]

Never tried them in a Colt clone. But they should work. But I had no issues in my dream.

I have a special gift for deciphering dreams. See other thread...

 

[spt_1955]

You can replace SP with SR. Plenty of people that compete do it.

If you are near the max load, back down a little.



Your friend got robbed. Availability and price of SR and SP is the same (excluding the one off going for $600 on Gun Broker).

Online, I see both out of stock and I see both at the same price.

It is nice to see your competition gun had no issues igniting Federal SRP. People always say they are harder. I have 5K I will reload and would like to use them to compete.

I agree that he overpaid for the primers but I would not say robbed as the dealer is a very honest dealer who states right up front that he has primers for his customers that need them but you don't want to pay for them unless you need them.

As for availability and price of SRP vs SPP I respectfully disagree. I started reloading .223 in the spring and I have 3 friends who just started reloading .223 in the last 2 months because of the steep increase in .223/5.56 prices. With a little hunting around we managed to dig up quite a few thousands of SRP ranging in price from $31 to $60 per $1000. Not only were we able to outfit all the new guys we were able to replenish stocks for the others. I don't think you can find 15-20,000 SPP in that price range now.

 

[DW357]

I don't think you can find 15-20,000 SPP in that price range now.

You can but you have to act quickly. I ALMOST had 5k CCI SPP from Bass Pro today. But went OOS during checkout. Few weeks ago I bought and sold 10k SPP for a little over 5 cents each shipped to fellow NESers. About a month ago I had 5k CCI SPP for $200 shipped to Bass Pro in Hooksett. Can be done if you use some reloading apps that help with notifications etc

 

[Mikie]

My recent experience loading SR primers instead of SP primers is the SR primers run better in 9mm than 40. I have a much higher failure to ignite rate using SRs in 40. I have no idea why.

 

[dcmdon]

Mikie - can you explain what you mean by failure rate?

Failure to fire? If so, did they go off when you wacked them a second time??

One of my favorite range guns is a G34 with a lighter than stock striker spring. I'm guessing I may need to go back to stock if I end up having to use my small rifle primer supply for pistol.

 

[Broc]

My recent experience loading SR primers instead of SP primers is the SR primers run better in 9mm than 40. I have a much higher failure to ignite rate using SRs in 40. I have no idea why.

It's a sign to throw the .40 away and stick with 9mm.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Wolf Small Rifle KVB-223 - the chrono results from both guns was virtually identical (+/- 3 FPS) to the Federal SPP primers that I normally use. The primers ignited 3 out of 5 times in the CZ and 4 out of 5 in t

Wolf is actually from the Murom Apparatus Producing Plant. When I got a few cases during an earlier shortage, the outer boxes (the one that contained 5 boxes of Wolf labeled primers) were labeled Murom.

The Murom SRP worked find in my Fotay, but were a bit more sensitive to being seated as deep as possible (a very small amount below level) for 100% reliable ignition.

I have used mostly Winchester and Federal small rifle primers in Fotay and Super with absolutely no reliability problems. The supers seem in less need of SRP instead of SPP since USPSA dropped the power factor to 165 years ago. It used to be 175 and, way way back, I think 180.

My Fotay use of SRP is a 1911 based gun (SVI Infinity) that absolutely positively ignited them every time. I am not certain this would be true of all models and designs of handguns. Ditto for the super.

 

[gene]

I loaded up 25 rounds of 45 ACP with 6.0 Gn of Unique as a test last night SRP.
Since they were 45ACP and had small primer pockets (PITA) and I am low on small pistol, I loaded them all up with CCI Small Rifle primers and a 230Gn JRN.
They all went bang in 3 different 45 handguns = 45 Colt Commander, XD45, R1 1911.
No issues or concerns at in shooting. Primers had normal dimple as well.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Lighter loads can cause problems with SRP. If the primer does not seal to the primer pocket, gas can escape around the rim and cause flame cutting. Clean the breechface and check for any erosion in the shape of a primer perimeter.

 

[TrashcanDan]

 

[dcmdon]

I loaded up 25 rounds of 45 ACP with 6.0 Gn of Unique as a test last night SRP.
Since they were 45ACP and had small primer pockets (PITA) and I am low on small pistol, I loaded them all up with CCI Small Rifle primers and a 230Gn JRN.
They all went bang in 3 different 45 handguns = 45 Colt Commander, XD45, R1 1911.
No issues or concerns at in shooting. Primers had normal dimple as well.

The scourge of reloaders everywhere. Small primer .45s. Ugghhh.

 

[45collector]

For anyone wondering about using SRP for smaller pistol calibers, I loaded up 50 rounds of 9x18makarov with them today and they performed no different than the same powder charge with SPP’s. 100 rounds total through one of the Makarovs.

 

[DW357]

 

[dcmdon]

Yes. Just don't jump right into max loads. Start out with minimum or close to minimum loads and work your way up.

Do realize that rifle and magnum pistol primers are harder than regular pistol primers. So if you have any guns with lighter weight striker or hammer springs they may not be reliable.

I have a Glock 34 that is set up to use (very soft) federal primers. Its got a 2 1/2 lb striker spring rather than stock 5 1/2 spring. It will not reliably light off CCI magnum primers. My stock Glock 19 runs 100% on that ammo.

 

[Mikie]

Sorry, never replied to question. SRPs failed to ignite after 3-4 extra strikes in my 40 reloads almost half the time.

 

[FPrice]

I was curious about this subject and came across this video from Brownell's. These guys always seem to have good explanations of why they recommend or don't recommend something.