you guys have to be giving worst case scenarios for someone who used there weapon unnecessarily for self defense .. I doubt anyone who had to defend themselves got all there firearms taken away, and never given back. that's just stupid even for MA.
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Using a firearm in self defense
- Thread starter additionalmc
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Horrible
NES Member
Not sure if it's taken away and never given back. The way I understand it, it's more of going to the bonded warehouse and trying to get them back and having to pay 10X what the gun is worth to get it back!! Do the math. If they have your guns in storage for 6 months and charge $X per day per gun, it adds up QUICKLY!! Think about how much money it costs to car your car back after a COP has it towed!
Even this is crazy to me, but then again...welcome to MA!
From my recollection of reading the Comm2A case some months ago (Jarvis v. Village Vault), so my numbers may be slightly off here, check for yourself . . .
- VV charged $45 IIRC pick-up fee.
- VV charged $20 log-in fee PER ITEM.
- VV charged $0.50/day storage fee PER DAY.
- VV charged $20 log-out fee PER ITEM when you claim (ALL your items or NONE).
VV required that you pay ALL charges and claim ALL items or you get nothing back.
I can't be certain, but if a box of ammo or a magazine/clip is "an item", the recovery cost of your goods gets outrageous pretty damn fast.
The PD has the legal right to move everything to a bonded warehouse IMMEDIATELY (except gun used in the event). You have no say in this.
Some PDs will refuse to re-issue you a LTC after such an event and therefore can't give you back your items.
Thus, my conclusion that you lose them forever. I'm talking "real world" issues here, not what the law allows or theoreticals.
Horrible
NES Member
As stated in an earlier post, Martha "Marsha" Coakley is our current AG:
http://neoneocon.com/2010/01/14/martha-coakley-and-the-child-molesters/
I probably should.
Still no one has explained that if the law considers a complete lower receiver as the actual firearm, then why is there a need to disclose the existence of upper receivers if they are in another location when they come to take your firearms?
xtry51
NES Member
It's got nothing to do with laws and everything to do with cops doing whatever the **** they want with zero repercussions.
That's why nobody is saying anything about it out loud. Because the truth hurts.
Portagee
NES Member
![[thinking]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/010.gif "Thinking [thinking]")
Chevy 2 65
NES Member
Thats why we should all show up at the court house of a legal gun owner and protest to let him or her go... If it was indeed a justified shooting in self defense.
Whatever happened to that guy in, I think Dorchester that shot the two guys breaking into his apartment build?
Whatever happened to that guy in, I think Dorchester that shot the two guys breaking into his apartment build?
I'd highly recommend listening carefully to whatever Lens/Len-2A says (*cough* go to one of his seminars) and reading Andrew Branca's (he posts here) book, The Law of Self Defense
http://www.amazon.com/Law-Self-Defe...415669292&sr=1-1&keywords=law+of+self+defense
Mas Ayoob (expert witness and pistol shooting authority) also has a new book out on the subject:
http://www.amazon.com/Deadly-Force-...415669292&sr=1-3&keywords=law+of+self+defense
http://www.amazon.com/Law-Self-Defe...415669292&sr=1-1&keywords=law+of+self+defense
Mas Ayoob (expert witness and pistol shooting authority) also has a new book out on the subject:
http://www.amazon.com/Deadly-Force-...415669292&sr=1-3&keywords=law+of+self+defense
Yes it would. If you are not charged with a crime or you are found not guilty at a trial, you are immune by law from civil liability for those actions, the way I understand it.
It MA you spend tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees even if you win, and if you lose, you lose most likely everything.
In NH, your weapons are not confiscated because you do not need a permit just to possess. If your concealed carry permit is pulled, you can not conceal carry but there is no way to confiscate all your guns and your wife's guns because no permit is needed to possess.
And yes, for me, the threat of losing everything financially is worth moving out of this state. As the economy continues south, violent crime will continue to increase. In my neighborhood in the last couple years breaks have gone way up and so have home invasions.
With no right to defend yourself or your familiy it is a recipe for disaster. If you need a permission slip to own a gun and your permission slip is taken away for defending your life and you are subject to lose everything you have worked for your entire life, then you have no right to self defense.
I am gone this spring /summer. I have had enough.
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GlockJock
NES Member
I'm not sure why (um, maybe because I have KIDS?) .. but of all the absolutely f*cked-up things I've read since joining this forum about liberal moonbat wingnuts in this most-effed-up-of-all-the-effed-up states in this land, for some reason this quote makes my head spin the most.. (Coakley’s comment “We really discourage people from self-help.” ).
Basically, the top LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER in the state telling me to simply stand back, dial 911, and watch as three scum punks (God forbid) are raping my wife? killing my family,? etc... And Massachusetts "discourages people from self-help".
Last month, the Friday before Columbus Day weekend, I was told by a neighbor on the next street over whose yard abuts mine, that he was having an angry disagreement with someone over parking on his property. The conversation got "heated "and his wife, realizing there were three VERY young angry men now cornering her husband and threatening him (one with a tire iron). She called 911 from her cell phone, which is what so many people have exclusively these days as it saves on having a land line installed if you don't need the Comf*ck/Iinfinity/FIOS "money-saving-bundle", plus even if you have a land line most people instinctively grab for their cell in an emergency.
She dials 911 and, since it's a cell phone call, the Framingham call center asks "Where is your emergency".. Then, as the seconds tick off the clock, the call is transferred to the proper city or town. Whereupon yet another dispatcher answers, and they themself now tries to determine where the problem is, the nature of the problem, etc etc . As the clock ticks. Tick tock tick tock.. . To make a long story short, my neighbor showed me his wife's cell phone record for the day, and it clearly shows her initially dialing 911 at 4:11p.m.. .
The first responding officers arrived at 4:35pm (she remembers the exact time cuz hubby is a typical Massachusetts wimpy little Starbucks-sipping pus*yboy wuss... and she was scared bleepless that he'd "be harmed".
The "altercation" had "subsided" by the time Martha's heroes arrived (translation: the 3 punks decided not to shank hubby and have to spend the long weekend awaiting arraignment) . When she asked what took so long for the cops to arrive they replied, and I'm not kidding : "Sorry, ma'am, but there is a lot of traffic today and it's also shift change"...
Simply unf*ckinreal.
Just call 911 and do NOT dare to "self help".... But things are much better now: Martha's gone and we have a brand new Attorney General.
And I wonder if Martha ever read the accounts of the Jennifer Martel killing by Jared Remy, as a female neighbor/friend attempted to pull him off Martel, and as a (male) neighbor yelled "Jared! Stop!! Please!!!" then told responding officers how Remy simply was an animal at that point, stabbing Martel brutally, repeatedly, etc
But, on the positive side, at least Jennifer and the neighbors didn't SELF HELP.
Basically, the top LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER in the state telling me to simply stand back, dial 911, and watch as three scum punks (God forbid) are raping my wife? killing my family,? etc... And Massachusetts "discourages people from self-help".
Last month, the Friday before Columbus Day weekend, I was told by a neighbor on the next street over whose yard abuts mine, that he was having an angry disagreement with someone over parking on his property. The conversation got "heated "and his wife, realizing there were three VERY young angry men now cornering her husband and threatening him (one with a tire iron). She called 911 from her cell phone, which is what so many people have exclusively these days as it saves on having a land line installed if you don't need the Comf*ck/Iinfinity/FIOS "money-saving-bundle", plus even if you have a land line most people instinctively grab for their cell in an emergency.
She dials 911 and, since it's a cell phone call, the Framingham call center asks "Where is your emergency".. Then, as the seconds tick off the clock, the call is transferred to the proper city or town. Whereupon yet another dispatcher answers, and they themself now tries to determine where the problem is, the nature of the problem, etc etc . As the clock ticks. Tick tock tick tock.. . To make a long story short, my neighbor showed me his wife's cell phone record for the day, and it clearly shows her initially dialing 911 at 4:11p.m.. .
The first responding officers arrived at 4:35pm (she remembers the exact time cuz hubby is a typical Massachusetts wimpy little Starbucks-sipping pus*yboy wuss... and she was scared bleepless that he'd "be harmed".
The "altercation" had "subsided" by the time Martha's heroes arrived (translation: the 3 punks decided not to shank hubby and have to spend the long weekend awaiting arraignment) . When she asked what took so long for the cops to arrive they replied, and I'm not kidding : "Sorry, ma'am, but there is a lot of traffic today and it's also shift change"...
Simply unf*ckinreal.
Just call 911 and do NOT dare to "self help".... But things are much better now: Martha's gone and we have a brand new Attorney General.
And I wonder if Martha ever read the accounts of the Jennifer Martel killing by Jared Remy, as a female neighbor/friend attempted to pull him off Martel, and as a (male) neighbor yelled "Jared! Stop!! Please!!!" then told responding officers how Remy simply was an animal at that point, stabbing Martel brutally, repeatedly, etc
But, on the positive side, at least Jennifer and the neighbors didn't SELF HELP.
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falcon123
NES Member
No. Your life really ends if you hesitate and don't use your gun to defend yourself.
GlockJock
NES Member
Um, yeah... and we should all also storm the state house demanding that these asinine regulations and laws are changed IMMEDIATELY.
So go ahead, plan a "rally" for someone accused of defending themself in MA. And let me know how many of the "We" that you mention actually show up (my guess? Probably less than the number who showed up at some of the hearings I went to regarding DeLeo's proposed new bill, or the last Pro-2A rally on the common, or....
Want good attendance at a MA court? Go on Twitter and announce that Ben LaGuer's parole/clemency proceeding begins at noon.... Or that there is a hearing at 2pm regarding the sanctity of gay marriage. Or...
Etc etc etc
Or Martha was referring to "self help" in a legal context... but either way don't let your med keep you from writing these entertaining fantasies
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I'm not sure why (um, maybe because I have KIDS?) .. but of all the absolutely f*cked-up things I've read since joining this forum about liberal moonbat wingnuts in this most-effed-up-of-all-the-effed-up states in this land, for some reason this quote makes my head spin the most.. (Coakley’s comment “We really discourage people from self-help.” ).
Basically, the top LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER in the state telling me to simply stand back, dial 911, and watch as three scum punks (God forbid) are raping my wife? killing my family,? etc... And Massachusetts "discourages people from self-help".
Last month, the Friday before Columbus Day weekend, I was told by a neighbor on the next street over whose yard abuts mine, that he was having an angry disagreement with someone over parking on his property. The conversation got "heated "and his wife, realizing there were three VERY young angry men now cornering her husband and threatening him (one with a tire iron). She called 911 from her cell phone, which is what so many people have exclusively these days as it saves on having a land line installed if you don't need the Comf*ck/Iinfinity/FIOS "money-saving-bundle", plus even if you have a land line most people instinctively grab for their cell in an emergency.
She dials 911 and, since it's a cell phone call, the Framingham call center asks "Where is your emergency".. Then, as the seconds tick off the clock, the call is transferred to the proper city or town. Whereupon yet another dispatcher answers, and they themself now tries to determine where the problem is, the nature of the problem, etc etc . As the clock ticks. Tick tock tick tock.. . To make a long story short, my neighbor showed me his wife's cell phone record for the day, and it clearly shows her initially dialing 911 at 4:11p.m.. .
The first responding officers arrived at 4:35pm (she remembers the exact time cuz hubby is a typical Massachusetts wimpy little Starbucks-sipping pus*yboy wuss... and she was scared bleepless that he'd "be harmed".
The "altercation" had "subsided" by the time Martha's heroes arrived (translation: the 3 punks decided not to shank hubby and have to spend the long weekend awaiting arraignment) . When she asked what took so long for the cops to arrive they replied, and I'm not kidding : "Sorry, ma'am, but there is a lot of traffic today and it's also shift change"...
Simply unf*ckinreal.
Just call 911 and do NOT dare to "self help".... But things are much better now: Martha's gone and we have a brand new Attorney General.
And I wonder if Martha ever read the accounts of the Jennifer Martel killing by Jared Remy, as a female neighbor/friend attempted to pull him off Martel, and as a (male) neighbor yelled "Jared! Stop!! Please!!!" then told responding officers how Remy simply was an animal at that point, stabbing Martel brutally, repeatedly, etc
But, on the positive side, at least Jennifer and the neighbors didn't SELF HELP.
Simply disgusting situation, thanks for sharing. Unfortunately I'm stuck here for another 5 years until my last child graduates. I'd hate to uproot her at this time in her life, but reading threads like this remind me that EVERYTHING that we know and any sense of stability could change in an instant anyway. I do think that something needs to change with regard to self defense law because the way it stands now, your family is almost better off if you just turn the gun on yourself during a confrontation. Simply disgusting!
![[angry]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/008.gif "Angry [angry]")
Glockjock,
- Martha isn't gone until January! Just because an election was held, NOTHING changes until then.
- 911 may be OK when you are "on the road" and don't even know what town you are in, but it is irresponsible not to program your hometown emergency number (all 10 digits) in your cellphone! In MA all cell 911 calls go to MSP, who then has to figure out where to transfer you to. Lost time = lost lives. Calling direct takes the middleman out of the equation, but still isn't fast enough in most cases.
- Shift change is a real issue. In my years on the PD, ALL officers were off the road from ~30 minutes before the end of shift until ~15 minutes after the start of the next shift and we NEVER had shift turn-over meetings. In more recent years, some PDs have staggered some officers hours to have a couple of officers still on the street during each shift turn-over, however they now have shift turn-over meetings which delays getting out on the street but does forward info on things/people to watch for (hot sheet items).
- Yes, MA will jack up someone who takes action in self-defense or defense of others. If they aren't arrested immediately, they will be strung out for months not knowing if they will be charged before being arrested or exonerated . . . the stress can be a killer and of course the media will be watching and reporting their every move during that time as well.
- Martha isn't gone until January! Just because an election was held, NOTHING changes until then.
- 911 may be OK when you are "on the road" and don't even know what town you are in, but it is irresponsible not to program your hometown emergency number (all 10 digits) in your cellphone! In MA all cell 911 calls go to MSP, who then has to figure out where to transfer you to. Lost time = lost lives. Calling direct takes the middleman out of the equation, but still isn't fast enough in most cases.
- Shift change is a real issue. In my years on the PD, ALL officers were off the road from ~30 minutes before the end of shift until ~15 minutes after the start of the next shift and we NEVER had shift turn-over meetings. In more recent years, some PDs have staggered some officers hours to have a couple of officers still on the street during each shift turn-over, however they now have shift turn-over meetings which delays getting out on the street but does forward info on things/people to watch for (hot sheet items).
- Yes, MA will jack up someone who takes action in self-defense or defense of others. If they aren't arrested immediately, they will be strung out for months not knowing if they will be charged before being arrested or exonerated . . . the stress can be a killer and of course the media will be watching and reporting their every move during that time as well.
I concur 100%, and add only the following:
The OP's question can be considered irrelevant, for this reason: use of deadly force for self-protection is only warranted (legally or morally) when the situation is so dire that you don't care about anything else except surviving.
As for hand wringing, I have personal knowledge of only one incident. Happened about ten years ago, very near by. Homeowner shot B&E guy at 1400. At 1700, local PD held news conference declaring shooting entirely justified. Homeowner was never named in any action, criminal or civil. No action was ever taken on LTC, and no firearms were confiscated.
Now I know you can't draw a trend line based on one data point, but this is the only data point I have..
GlockJock
NES Member
I was being sarcastic Len... Plus, there's a very real fear that after a few years of Maura, is it possible that we'll be "longing" for the good old days of Martha?
Sarcasm there also, Len,.. BUT we're talking about a broad who is (according to the legal eagles) a "better lawyer" than Coakley and who has ALREADY come out (no pun intended
) saying that the 2nd Amendment really shouldn't apply to the average citizen, etc etc etc.
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That's good to hear of a positive example for once, but I wonder if that situation would still be the case in our present time frame? Clearly laws have changed a lot in the past decade, and civil litigation is more rampant than ever as well. Sounds like this guy just got extremely lucky that the perp had no family to come after "justice" since he was obviously in the process of turning his life around, but needed one more score...
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
GlockJock
NES Member
"Irresponsible? You and I and most LTC/NES folks are certainly "responsible", but we're talking about the general public. Many (most?) people have no clue that a cell call is routed to Framingham. Then again, most people are idiots who wouldn't even know where to find New Jersey on a map if Snookie and J-woww hadn't shown them it's near the ocean. Even then, ask half the kids with cell phones where NJ is on a US map and they would probably point to San Diego, or Corpus Christi... Hell, a percentage of them would probably point at Sydney Australia...
This statement makes my blood boil. Everytime. In-effing-furiating.
45collector
NES Member
If you live in MA, (or anywhere else for that matter but for the sake of this conversation, specifically referring to the fact that your life will be turned upside down in the event of a self defense shooting in this state) you should be thinking of ways to lower your odds of ever having to use a firearm in self defense.
Stay away from shitty areas. (and live in a low-crime area if possible)
Have an extremely loud alarm system installed in your home.
Don't flash money/ expensive jewelry while out in public.
Don't get involved in road rage.
Double check you locked all your doors/ windows each night. Leave a light or two on.
Lock your car doors where ever you are going.
SITUATIONAL AWARENESS, a million times over.
If you are able to stay in shape, do so, so you can GTFO like a cat in a sudden shitty situation.
Don't hang out with troublesome people.
Pepper spray as part of your "EDC".
Don't be around when the clubs and bars are closing.
Seriously. You can live in fear of having to pull the trigger, or you can accept the risk as part of being a gun owner and hope you never have to use your gun. Most of that stuff I listed can be practiced by anyone, regardless of income, age, physical capabilities, town you live in, etc...
Yeah, this state sucks for gun owners. Deal with it and stay below the radar best you can, or move to a more 2A-friendly state. I don't blame anyone who wants to. I want to myself but I'll be living here for quite some time most likely.
Stay away from shitty areas. (and live in a low-crime area if possible)
Have an extremely loud alarm system installed in your home.
Don't flash money/ expensive jewelry while out in public.
Don't get involved in road rage.
Double check you locked all your doors/ windows each night. Leave a light or two on.
Lock your car doors where ever you are going.
SITUATIONAL AWARENESS, a million times over.
If you are able to stay in shape, do so, so you can GTFO like a cat in a sudden shitty situation.
Don't hang out with troublesome people.
Pepper spray as part of your "EDC".
Don't be around when the clubs and bars are closing.
Seriously. You can live in fear of having to pull the trigger, or you can accept the risk as part of being a gun owner and hope you never have to use your gun. Most of that stuff I listed can be practiced by anyone, regardless of income, age, physical capabilities, town you live in, etc...
Yeah, this state sucks for gun owners. Deal with it and stay below the radar best you can, or move to a more 2A-friendly state. I don't blame anyone who wants to. I want to myself but I'll be living here for quite some time most likely.
I was looking for an update to this as well
http://www.boston.com/news/local/ma...vestigating/UdtQq2mgTyoEiMjuT1mDeO/story.html
still looking
