use of OC/Mace

[daddysuperfly]

I've been searching, but haven't found a good answer yet.

I've found these threads, but they only touch on the use of OC:
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-26151.html
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-88337.html
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-103555.html


I have an LTC with restrictions, so I choose to carry Mace (OC/CS/UV dye) when i venture outside. The problem i'm having is i'm not sure when i'd be 'allowed' to use it. Are there any guidlines, books, videos that i could review to help me with this?

I've heard about the use of force continuum, but that looks like it's geared more towards LEOs. Is there anything out there for the basic civilian?

I'm worried about using it in a grey area, and getting whacked with huge legal fees. Obviously i'm not talking about spraying someone sitting on my car, or blowing smoke in my face. for instance, would it be ok to spray someone that is charging at you, but not displaying any weapons?

Another question i have is does it have to be concelead?? I'm assuming no since they make keychain versions, but this is MA....


Also, i'm not sure if this should be in the laws section, so mods feel free to move it if it should have been posted there.

Thanks

 

[MichaelJR]

I use it whenever someone looks at me wrong....

Over at thanksgiving dinner, father looks at me wrong....BAM MACE TO THE FACE F*CKER LOVE IT LOVE IT
Old lady walking down the street says hi michael.......BAM MACE TO THE FACE F*CKER LOVE IT LOVE IT
Police man pulls me over and comes up to window and asks for license and registration, wrong question coppa.....BAM MACE TO THE FACE F*CKER LOVE IT LOVE IT

anyone that looks at your wrong or asks a question you don't like, mace to the face

 

[MichaelJR]

and when you're in doubt to use mace.....don't question yourself, use it anyways. Grocery store clerk tells you your total, FAIL, wrong answer buddy! MACE!!

 

[right_to_bear_arms]

If I am in fear of immediate bodily harm you get maced. Likewise for my family or close friends if I'm with them. That includes assaults on my person with bare fists/hands or any other part of the body. Your example of a person charging but not displaying any weapons is a little vague but if someone charged me while screaming/threatening me then they would probably get maced regardless of whether they were displaying a weapon or not. If you are close enough for me to mace you and you are acting in a threatening manner then you are too close! As for concealing, I will normally carry concealed in an easily accessible pocket but have no problem with displaying or carrying on a keychain and am not aware of any law in MA (IANAL) that prohibits this although I'm sure threatening someone with it would fall under the category of assault with a dangerous weapon just like everything else in MA.

 

[right_to_bear_arms]

Or you could just light up a Newport! :-D

 

[MichaelJR]

Or you could just light up a Newport! :-D

and use the newport as an igniter for your aeresol flame thrower....tactical flames of death.


and then mace everyone around you once you maced the aggressor.

You maced him....and then your buddy gives you a look....mace him. If his girlfriend asks why you did that....mace her.....then mace the lady driving the car behind you....and then mace the parking lot attendant that wittnessed the whole thing.

Mace everyone.

 

[Disgorge]

I have another mace question- my girlfriend got some while we were on vacation in Maine.
How serious is it if she gets caught with it in MA without an FID?

 

[MichaelJR]

the problem with using any chemical deterent on a charging person is that it's not going to stop them, and you're going to get it all over yourself when you both go to ground. you're effectively macing yourself. if you haven't already maced youself, and carry it as a defensive weapon, i highly recommend that you do just so you know what to expect. it's not pleasant.

yeah I'll agree here, as someone who has been maced indirectly previously by a police officer trying to mace someone else in rather large parking lot brawl....I'll say even a slight amount of it will ruin your day, it's a big bag of suck, and I only caught the tail end of it. Don't get maced....just mace others.

 

[MichaelJR]

Okay forget my hysterical comments that nobody laughed at.


On a serious note, I remember vividly at my safety course an explaination of the law, and I believe right_to_bear_arms is correct on all fronts.

However, don't mace yourself as timber said to be careful with, cause it's really going to suck. Mace doesn't fly like you think it would, it goes everywhere, and the wind picks it up, and it splashes, so be careful when using it not to ruin your day as well.


If you're close enough, turn your head and spray it down their throat. hahahaha

 

[ARowley]

Don't you need a special permit just for Mace/OC? or is that only if you don't have FID or LTC? Or is there a Mace/oc only permit?

 

[EddieCoyle]

Don't you need a special permit just for Mace/OC? or is that only if you don't have FID or LTC? Or is there a Mace/oc only permit?

There's a restricted (OC -only) FID that costs $25.

Anybody with a regular FID or LTC can buy mace.

 

[M1911]

I've been searching, but haven't found a good answer yet.

It is my impression that this is one of those "it depends" issues. Mace isn't deadly force, but it is above command voice. If you are in a public area, it will be very helpful if you have clearly not been the aggressor and tried to escape from the situation. But it is a use of force, and if you are not justified in its use you may wind up in the legal system.

I have an LTC with restrictions, so I choose to carry Mace (OC/CS/UV dye) when i venture outside. The problem i'm having is i'm not sure when i'd be 'allowed' to use it. Are there any guidlines, books, videos that i could review to help me with this?

I've heard about the use of force continuum, but that looks like it's geared more towards LEOs. Is there anything out there for the basic civilian?

I don't see that the force continuum is any different for a police officer than for us private citizens. I haven't seen any such books or videos. You could consult a MA firearms attorney. You might want to take GOAL's Art of Concealed Carry course, which discusses the laws of deadly force and less lethal force: http://www.thegoalfoundation.org/courses.html

I'm worried about using it in a grey area, and getting whacked with huge legal fees.

Even if you think it isn't a grey area, you may well face significant legal fees. About 10 years ago I met a fellow in NY who used mace to defend himself and his girlfriend from a road rager in a parking lot. He called the police, but the police spoke with the aggressor first and decided the defender was really the aggressor. He was eventually cleared, but it took over a year and $10,000 in legal fees.

Obviously i'm not talking about spraying someone sitting on my car, or blowing smoke in my face. for instance, would it be ok to spray someone that is charging at you, but not displaying any weapons?

That would likely be justified, but this is MA after all.

Also, i'm not sure if this should be in the laws section, so mods feel free to move it if it should have been posted there.

You're posing a question about MA laws, so clearly it should be.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Don't you need a special permit just for Mace/OC? or is that only if you don't have FID or LTC? Or is there a Mace/oc only permit?

The lowest level FID covers chemical sprays ONLY for $25 and free renewals, no training req'd.

Any other FID or LTC will also cover chemical sprays.

Some LEOs will prosecute anyone with OC/Mace w/o an FID/LTC, others will tell you not to do anything stupid with it and conceal it. Depends on who you deal with and what caused the interaction. It is a crime and has been prosecuted SUCCESSFULLY by at least one large Boston area college as possession of ammunition (that's where it's listed) w/o a license.

 

[M1911]

I have another mace question- my girlfriend got some while we were on vacation in Maine.
How serious is it if she gets caught with it in MA without an FID?

That depends. How serious do you think up to 2 years in jail would be?

MGL Chapter 260 Section 10 Para H1:

(h)(1) Whoever owns, possesses or transfers a firearm, rifle, shotgun or ammunition without complying with the provisions of section 129C of chapter 140 shall be punished by imprisonment in a jail or house of correction for not more than 2 years or by a fine of not more than $500. Whoever commits a second or subsequent violation of this paragraph shall be punished by imprisonment in a house of correction for not more than 2 years or by a fine of not more than $1,000, or both. Any officer authorized to make arrests may arrest without a warrant any person whom the officer has probable cause to believe has violated this paragraph.

Full text here: http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartIV/TitleI/Chapter269/Section10

For goodness sake, just have her get an FID limited to OC sprays. The cost is minimal.

 

[C-pher]

Okay forget my hysterical comments that nobody laughed at.

Sorry, just saw this thread and I'm getting comments from my office mate. He's asking if everything is OK over there as I've got tears in my eyes.

I was waiting for you to say....

Person behind you honking at you...roll down the window and empty the can by your door so it's sucked up in the rear car's air conditioner...Love it love it..

 

[cb1]

I have another mace question- my girlfriend got some while we were on vacation in Maine.
How serious is it if she gets caught with it in MA without an FID?

Technically she would be in violation of the law. Massachusetts includes pepper spray in the definition of "ammunition". Ch 140 Sec 121 defines ammunition as:

“Ammunition”, cartridges or cartridge cases, primers (igniter), bullets or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm, rifle or shotgun. The term “ammunition” shall also mean tear gas cartridges, chemical mace or any device or instrument which contains or emits a liquid, gas, powder or any other substance designed to incapacitate.

Sec 10(h)(1) of Ch 269 states:

Whoever owns, possesses or transfers a firearm, rifle, shotgun or ammunition without complying with the provisions of section 129C of chapter 140 shall be punished by imprisonment in a jail or house of correction for not more than 2 years or by a fine of not more than $500. ....

Many people cite this paragraph as the penalty for possessing pepper spray without a license. However, the definition of ammunition for Sec 10 of Ch 269 is not the same as the definition found in Sec 121 of Ch 140:

For purposes of this section, “ammunition” shall mean cartridges or cartridge cases, primers (igniter), bullets or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm, rifle or shotgun.

IANAL and I'm sure there is case law where someone was successfully convicted of possessing pepper spray without a license despite the inconsistencies in the law(s). So, if she doesn't have a license, she may want to get one.

 

[Mr Weebles]

the problem with using any chemical deterent on a charging person is that it's not going to stop them, and you're going to get it all over yourself when you both go to ground. you're effectively macing yourself. if you haven't already maced youself, and carry it as a defensive weapon, i highly recommend that you do just so you know what to expect. it's not pleasant.

Excellent point. I got teargassed in boot camp. It sucks.

 

[xtry51]

you're going to get it all over yourself when you both go to ground. you're effectively macing yourself.

+1

If you spray it some will get on you, period. Expect to half blind yourself and have an awesome weeze/cough minimum. A direct exposure whether you spray yourself, wind blows it back at you or an attacker rubbing it on you will at first feel like you have bronchitis, flu, pneumonia and an asthma attack at the same time coupled with blindness. Ever got soap or sand in your eye? Mace is not even comparable. You're going to wish it was sand.

I suggest immediately retreating if you're going to use it and putting as much distance as possible between you and the attacker while spraying.

I would also highly recommend spraying yourself so when it happens you don't freak out. There's a reason they gas troops during some training ops to train them how to deal with it. It's because you WILL panic the first time you get hit by it.

At a minimum I recommend standing 5 ft away from a wall or tree and spraying it so you'll realize Timber is right about the indirect exposure you're going to get.

 

[daddysuperfly]

You might want to take GOAL's Art of Concealed Carry course, which discusses the laws of deadly force and less lethal force: http://www.thegoalfoundation.org/courses.html.

Excellent suggestion on the GOAL class. Unfortunately they're all full, so i'll have to keep my eyes peeled for next years calendar.

Okay forget my hysterical comments that nobody laughed at.

I was laughing on the inside

 

[MichaelJR]

Sorry, just saw this thread and I'm getting comments from my office mate. He's asking if everything is OK over there as I've got tears in my eyes.

I was waiting for you to say....

Person behind you honking at you...roll down the window and empty the can by your door so it's sucked up in the rear car's air conditioner...Love it love it..

Or....sales clerk says "no sir, that's not on sale it was misprinted"...i say "F*CK YOU SALES CLERK, WRONG ANSWER!" mace

or....priest says to you "would you like to make a confession my son?" and you say "Son? What the F*CK!! I'M NO SON OF YOURS!! HERE'S A CONFESSION, GO F*CK YOURSELF YOU'RE GONNA GET MACED!!!" Mace.

I got more coming

 

[EddieCoyle]

I got more coming

Don't quit your day job (unless your day job is comedy writing).

 

[MichaelJR]

dude, shut up. you're ruining a very good and informative thread with stuff that just isn't funny at all.

Miserable.

Want me to make jokes about AARP reports? Or healthcare? I realize my jokes may not be age appropriate....


NES doesn't have to be all business all day you know, every once in a while it's okay to go off on a fun tangent....it's fun, unlike being maced.


"YOU MAKE JOKES ON NES MICHAEL!! YEAH, LAUGH AT THIS FUNNY MAN!!" I get maced.

 

[atmay]

Miserable.

Want me to make jokes about AARP reports? Or healthcare? I realize my jokes may not be [strike]age appropriate[/strike]funny....

I gotta go with Timber on this one. The first post might have made me laugh a little, but now it's just not funny anymore.


And Paul, move out of Worcester and get those restrictions gone.

 

[daddysuperfly]

And Paul, move out of Worcester and get those restrictions gone.

Sounds good. When do you want to sign the P&S agreement?

 

[MichaelJR]

I gotta go with Timber on this one. The first post might have made me laugh a little, but now it's just not funny anymore.


And Paul, move out of Worcester and get those restrictions gone.

Alright I get it I beat a dead horse.

 

[In God We Trust]

Mace is not considered "lethal force". I would feel free to use it anytime you feel like you are in imminent danger of assault. You don't actually need to be in fear for your life per se. If someone were yelling at me and advanced on me in a threatening manner, they are getting a face full while I am backing away from them. I am not a runner and am not going to try and run away. I will certainly WALK away, but if they follow, I hope they like hot sauce.

I have been pepper sprayed 4 times in my life and I can tell you that it is effective. You should assume that it is not going to stop an assault just to be safe, but chances are good that the guy is going to be blinded with is going to be a huge edge in your favor. Be smart about it. If you have a reasonable degree of common sense, use it when you feel threatened. Worst case scenerio, you are probably not going to get any jail time even if you are "wrong" better safe than sorry.

 

[MichaelJR]

in some threads, it's appropriate to make fun of the retards. like the threads where people think that screaming "i have a gun" and racking a shotgun is actually going to deter someone intent on doing them harm. or provide them some sort of tactical advantage during a home invasion.

in other threads, -like this one-, where an individual living under oppressive restrictions brought upon them by the state is looking for serious advice, it's not appropriate.

Well judging by your expertise in such matters I'm assuming you're the most tactically advantaged person on here with your surefire light on your 870 with your chest rig and multicam hat and your acog on the ar so you can save the world from your cannibalistic neighbors at 200 meters....

See, I make a joke, timber blows an O ring and pops an eye blood vessel, everyone gets maced, and we have an open carry bbq. The worlds issues are solved.

 

[richc]

Well judging by your expertise in such matters I'm assuming you're the most tactically advantaged person on here with your surefire light on your 870 with your chest rig and multicam hat and your acog on the ar so you can save the world from your cannibalistic neighbors at 200 meters....

See, I make a joke, timber blows an O ring and pops an eye blood vessel, everyone gets maced, and we have an open carry bbq. The worlds issues are solved.

Dude... they have medication that might help...



Rich

 

[Davidk]

We are a few weeks from publishing our Pepper Spray DVD which will answer all your questions regarding when to use it and how to use it. PM if you are interested in a pre-release copy.

 

[Keystone]

Well judging by your expertise in such matters I'm assuming you're the most tactically advantaged person on here with your surefire light on your 870 with your chest rig and multicam hat and your acog on the ar so you can save the world from your cannibalistic neighbors at 200 meters....

See, I make a joke, timber blows an O ring and pops an eye blood vessel, everyone gets maced, and we have an open carry bbq. The worlds issues are solved.

You're hitting borderline "Troll," here. Once was kinda funny, twice was okay, continually pushing it and then proceeding to flame the folks that call you on it is over the edge. Please stop...it's just not necessary.

From what I've read/heard, using OC/Mace is the "proper" response for a situation that needs to be stopped, but isn't QUITE at the level that would warrant a lethal or crlppling response. Someone starts taking swings at you, that sort of thing. If your options are shoot the guy, get your a*s beat or spray him, and you don't feel you'd be within the law to poke .36" holes in him (.45" if you carry like a man ), then spray him. Just be prepared to get a lungful of it yourself, and be prepared to gtfo.