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US Navy drone shot down by Iranian missile over Strait of Hormuz: source

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Reptile, Jun 20, 2019.

  1. MarlboroughMan

    MarlboroughMan

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    There are a hundred different things that you could read regarding the Liberty Events (see below). There doesn't appear to be a concrete answer.

    "The IAF dispatched two Mirage III fighter jets that arrived at Liberty at about 2:00 pm.[32] The formation leader, Captain Iftach Spector, attempted to identify the ship.[32] He radioed to one of the torpedo boats his observation that the ship looked like a military ship with one smokestack and one mast.[33] He also communicated, in effect, that the ship appeared to him like a destroyer or another type of small ship.[33]In a post-attack statement, the pilots said they saw no distinguishable markings or flag on the ship."

    But Israel did apologize and paid the US millions of dollars in reparations for the F up. I am not arguing whether or not it was deliberate because the facts are too grey. If it were deliberate than I'm certainly not defending Israel. But Iran's actions are taking place today (not 50+ years ago with a single unclear event... we may as well blame the British for attacking Bunker Hill 250 years ago) and I disagree that Iran's support for terrorism stops at the Israeli border (just as the much more moderate Saudi government supported or condoned or at the very least turned the other cheek on 9/11). I get your point regarding rah rah bomb Iran because they shot down a drone... so what's the big deal... but it's naive to think that these people can't harm us.
     
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  2. Me Have ADD

    Me Have ADD

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    The Israeli fighters flew low enough that the sailors saw them waving. The Liberty was also attacked by Israeli torpedo boats which caused the most damage. As I said previously the Israelis jammed the radio frequencies. The Israelis positively identified the Liberty as a US naval vessel too.

    View: https://youtu.be/kjOH1XMAwZA
     
  3. Bonesinium

    Bonesinium

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    Good point. We definitely shouldn't care about aircraft getting shot down in international airspace. [rolleyes]
     
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  4. sigfanboy13

    sigfanboy13

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    Gulf of Tonkin 2 electric boogaloo?
     
  5. darrowj

    darrowj

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  6. Picton

    Picton NES Member

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    When we're spying and the people we're spying on take exception?

    That's big-boy pants time. If we're not prepared to go to war, we need to know when we're licked. Just because we're 'MURICA! doesn't always mean we're in the right. This is the same as that Hainan Island thing from the late 90s, when we meekly landed so the Chinese could take pics of one of our spyplanes.

    PSGWSP. It's true in international relations, too. Like when the Iranians made us their bitches over that patrol-boat incident a few years back. When we screw up, that's on us.
     
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  7. GM-GUY

    GM-GUY NES Member

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    I read on Drudge that Trump ordered an attack then pulled back - do I believe the media, NO; but it is possible.

    Iran are bad dudes and shooting down aircraft in international airspace is an act of war. However, I have no desire to get involved in another war UNLESS we go unrestricted and anyplace with two rocks on top of each other can be a target.

    No more of this no mosques, no schools, no hospitals / if there is a valid military target next door or even inside - it gets hit. If we aren’t ready to do that, then do a black op and get the Saudi’s and Iranians shooting at each other. They all hate each other let’s use that.
     
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  8. SHOCKNAWE

    SHOCKNAWE

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    The funniest thing about this is a certain high ranking DEM visiting Iranian officials coinciding with an uptick in Iranian aggression, big picture is Trump was smart not to strike. There are sneaky people in high places wanting Trump to get involved in a conflict for their political agenda and don’t care how many lives it costs. And since it was just a piece of hardware destroyed with no US servicemen KIA it can go on the list of shit these Iranians have done and the next time they act up we can present this list to the international community and get support for turning their lights off. I’m against any US engagement where US troops can get KIA but if they keep this shit up then drop the F’in hammer on these shitbags, destroy their infrastructure and let Russia rebuild them since they are their big brother. F**K ‘em both
     
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  9. MarlboroughMan

    MarlboroughMan

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    This is a very informative video and it helps to demonstrate my point regarding this situation being a complete cluster F.... You're making single sentence statements (as fact) when the entire situation was much more complicated (for example, the Israeli's had in fact identified the Liberty as an American ship... but that was earlier in the day... and this was an active war zone in which the Israeli's were facing hostile forces from all sides). Go to approximately 34 minutes into the video you provided and you'll hear an Israeli torpedo boat officer explaining how they F'd up and misidentified the ship. The Israeli's were (admittedly) "trigger-happy" at this date, three days into the war, and the US ship (according to both US and Israeli sources) should not have been where it was. Again, I am not defending what Israel did. It was an atrocity and a F up (which they admitted and made public apology and reparation for). But using this singular F-up in the middle of an active war-zone over 50 years ago to compare Israel to Iran or any of the other Arab countries that support state-sponsored terrorism (with us and all of the non-extreme Islamic world as their target) is ridiculous.
     
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  10. MarlboroughMan

    MarlboroughMan

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    They absolutely should not take exception. Everybody spies on everybody. Friend and foe (and with friends information sometimes gets shared). Do you think the Russians don't have planes/satellites/operatives trained on us right now? Crossing into air space (which the American's allegedly did NOT do in this drone situation) would have constituted Iran legitimately taking action. But blowing our assets out of the sky in international waters is not acceptable, regardless of whether or not they were "spying."
     
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  11. Picton

    Picton NES Member

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    Okay.

    Then by all means, register a protest through the UN or something. I’m sure that’ll fix everything.
     
  12. MarlboroughMan

    MarlboroughMan

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    I think you're missing my point. I'm saying that we have the right to spy on other countries just like they spy on us. And we'd be crazy not to spy on Iran. I'm also saying that if they did in fact shoot down our plane over international waters we have a legitimate gripe. All of that being said, I'm not sure that going to war over this infraction is advisable (since it's fairly minor and, for example, nobody got killed)... but I wouldn't be upset with the administration taking some military action (like what they apparently planned and for some reason aborted this morning). Personally I think that war with Iran is inevitable, as their leadership is incapable of refraining from poking the bear(s).. and this will become increasingly dangerous as they get closer to obtaining nuclear capability.
     
  13. GM-GUY

    GM-GUY NES Member

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    We flew spy missions around the Soviet Union everyday from the 1950’s and around most of their satellite countries too. The Soviets did and the Russians still do we refer to the Tu-95’s that get intercepted as bombers - they aren’t, they’re spy planes.

    Apparently Trump called back the strike as it would have killed approximately 150 Iranians - my response - So? When did they ever care?

    It might be time for excessive response and make the short bus countries have a pause. If we MOAB bombed Kabul or Bagdad maybe the next guy says whoa - let’s not do that. Of course it appears that will never happen until it’s too late.

    Also, a war with Iran leads to car bombs, mass attacks and terrorism everyday like Israel deals with here in the USA. That open border is going to bite us hard.
     
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  14. PATRON

    PATRON NES Life Member NES Member

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    So we start looking for trouble with Iran,and before you know it we have a small war with them.We end up sending a bunch of our young people over to get killed,then end up pulling out,and three year latter we are friends with Iran,and we are selling them arms.We need to leave them along.Hell those countries do a better job of killing their own people than we will ever do.
     
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  15. dingbat

    dingbat

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    Unfortunately not gonna happen.
    Pull up a map of the Middle East, look at Iraq and Afghanistan, then tell me Iran wasn't the play all along. Aside from a shooting, civil war in the US, I find it difficult to believe that anything is going to stop that.
     
  16. Picton

    Picton NES Member

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    Lord a mercy, guys. Have we learned nothing from the last twenty imperial years?

    The USA IS NOT a reliable ally in the Middle East and DOES NOT strike fear in the hearts of anyone there. They know some important things:

    1. The American people and their government have no stomach for another Middle Eastern war.
    2. American airstrikes are ALWAYS followed by... nothing. Nothing at all.
    3. There is absolutely no reason for the US to have a full-scale war against Iran.

    They know all this. So why would a meager strike against some anonymous ADA installation manned by conscripts strike fear in the hearts of anyone? And sorry, but "poking the bear?" The bear lives thousands of miles away. We're only there to be poked because we're choosing to put ourselves into harm's way.

    There are dozens of ways to handle Iran, and a lot of those ways include the terms "Saudi Arabia" and "Israel." This is only "our" problem because we're choosing to make it our problem. I can't think of anything dumber right now than getting ourselves militarily involved with Iran.
     
  17. MarlboroughMan

    MarlboroughMan

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    I don't disagree with your dozens of ways to handle Iran (including Israel, not so sure I'd trust the Saudi's in any way). But I do believe that American involvement and as necessary intervention in the region over decades has been more effective than you're giving it credit for. In fact it has directly or indirectly resulted in the removal of some pretty serious extremist threats/leaders and taken the teeth out of formerly formidable military regimes, including some of these countries with whom we now have decent relations (Egypt and Jordan, and Syria, Iraq, Libya, and Lebanon are all less militarily powerful or threatening in that region than they were 40-50 years ago). Also, the thousands of miles away means very little (as we saw on 9/11 for example). The world is still oil dependent, and the extremists hate us and the rest of the West or democracy as much as they hate Israel, so having some level of involvement and assurance of stability in the middle east is in our sphere of interest.
     
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  18. Picton

    Picton NES Member

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    None of this, true or not, provides a good reason for bombing Iran today. Or tomorrow. Or yesterday.

    We need to be about 4,000% smarter about our Middle East policy. We're a laughingstock there, a big clumsy gorilla with no thought about future consequences, and that's been the case since 1973. It'd be nice to start somewhere.
     
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  19. Me Have ADD

    Me Have ADD

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    The 9/11 hijackers and bin Laden attacked us due to American interference in the Muslim world. They strongly objected to American troops stationed on Muslim holy land, support for dictators, support for Israel and our practice of placing economic sanctions on Muslim countries. Our sanctions we placed on Iraq are estimated to have killed 500,000 children.
     
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  20. MarlboroughMan

    MarlboroughMan

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    ADD, the Arab/Islamic extremist world has been fraught with terroristic proclivity long before 9/11 and much of their terrorism has been aimed at fellow Arabs. You can easily google the long list of terrorist attacks on western as well as middle-eastern targets. Unfortunately the world depends on oil, so we nor our allies, some of whom are based in that region, can entirely recuse ourselves from that part of the world. Their way of dealing with "strongly objecting" is to target civilians and/or to use them as shields. The 500,000 figure that you pulled out of your ass (and I presume you meant sanctions on Iran not Iraq) is not only off-base, it's a drop in the bucket compared to what these dictators do to their own civilians.
     
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  21. drgrant

    drgrant Moderator NES Member

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    The fun question of the day thing is though was the drone actually in Iranian territory, or not? Iran says X and we say otherwise... both parties have incentive to lie, and all the third parties have no way to verify.... so all we can really do is write it off as a sort of a retard conference.

    -Mike
     
  22. Me Have ADD

    Me Have ADD

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    Say the Soviet Union or Egypt "accidentally" attacked the Liberty. Would we have not retaliated then and there and in modern times financially support them with billions of dollars?

    The attack on the Liberty was no accident.
    USS Liberty Memorial: Summary of Events

    'But sir, it’s an American ship.' 'Never mind, hit her!' When Israel attacked USS Liberty
     
  23. Me Have ADD

    Me Have ADD

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    View: https://youtu.be/RM0uvgHKZe8
     
  24. 1776

    1776 NES Member

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    Let's do a return 9/11 with a fleet of 737's with the Boeing crew that certified it. It's already proven capable of killing!
     
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  25. MarlboroughMan

    MarlboroughMan

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    ADD you truly live up to your name and you're all over the board. The 23 second clip of Albright just confirms what we know... that the Clinton administration imposed sanctions as an attempt to get Hussein to stop killing/starving his own people, developing weapons, etc. Arguably sanctions made more sense than rushing into war... which we ultimately (arguably mistakenly) did anyway. But what would your solution have been? Turn the other cheek and allow Hussein to murder millions, develop weapons, etc.? Continue to practice business as usual with a madman dictator who used all profits to his own gain while his people starved? It's so easy to blame the US (or Israel when she defends herself). Citing some paper from some Israeli publication, that does as much to add to the conspiracy theories as to dispel anything, just makes this argument more of a cluster-screw. Again, the Liberty was a terrible incident regardless of blame (which Israel took), but it was 50 years ago and has little to do with the current situation with Iran.

    Clearly you have strong anti-American (and anti-Israeli) opinions... but from what I see your bias is based on a lot of conspiracy-theory, partial truths, and dredging up of missteps and F-ups that all governments make (particularly in the heat of battle). But what you don't offer are solutions other than the nonsensical theory that the US should turn their backs entirely on the region, as if that would cure the ills of Islamic extremism. It's not good enough for the extremists to be left alone... that is not what they are seeking. What they are actually seeking is that they want us f'ing dead regardless of what we do... simply because we're not them (and in fact they feel the same way about the moderates in their own society).
     
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  26. MarlboroughMan

    MarlboroughMan

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    The effects of the sanctions on the civilian population of Iraq have been disputed.[8][9][10][11] Whereas it was widely believed that the sanctions caused a major rise in child mortality, research following the 2003 invasion of Iraq has shown that commonly cited data were doctored by the Saddam Hussein regime and that "there was no major rise in child mortality in Iraq after 1990 and during the period of the sanctions".[12]
     
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  27. Andy in NH

    Andy in NH NES Life Member NES Member

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    Can you image the how the E-4 that plugged in the wrong waypoint coordinates feels right about now?
    ;)
     
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  28. drgrant

    drgrant Moderator NES Member

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    I was just thinking that, I can't imagine the us intentionally risking an asset like that without a lot of special considerations, so more than likely this was the end result of some kind of human error....

    -Mike
     
  29. Dench

    Dench

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    I would like to firstly state that I'm happy the US did not bomb Iran for the most important reason of all: the bombing of Iran in a single aerial operation would take about 250-300 years worth of rescue budget away from the from NH Fish and Wildlife police people. Mount Washington would never be more dangerous, and the Fish police would have nothing to complain about. A truly disastrous scenario.


    When I 1st hear of this incident the 1st thing I thought was "wtf is this stupid drone even f***ing looking at?" Seriously. Who the f*** cares what Iran is doing over there? Obviously the US flys drones right on the line routinely, and obviously the Iranians 100% hate it and are desperate for any chance they can get to take shots at them. So here we are, using the worlds lamest military technology, looking at shit absolutely no one cares about just to jam it up Irans ass. For reasons.

    Dear Neo Con hawks who have been begging for more war despite the ongoing 18 year failure that is the WoT: If the Persian Gulf and Gulf of Oman is so important let the chumps who live there deal with it. Because I give zero shits. Why do I give zero shits? Because it has absolutely zero bearing on anything that has to do with my life. Iran being a big meanie in the Persian Gulf? God forbid some of the locals actually do something for once to tell them to cut the shit out. Iraq? Kuwait? Saudi Arabia? Qatar? UAE? Oman? Jesus H Christ himself will shed a tear the day any of these counties Navies does a single thing.

    I used to ask 10+ years ago what it will take for people to snap out of it. When will people stop supporting this bullshit? After the Libya/Syria/ISIS extravaganzas its clear that nothing will ever snap these people out of it. War is the Viagra of the baby boomers. Who needs erections lasting longer than 4 hours when you can go beat on people who have no association with us on the other side of the globe?
     
  30. Me Have ADD

    Me Have ADD

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    You accused me of pulling statistics out of my ass while Madaline Albright said 500,000 dead children were worth it. That's what I was going off of. If I'm off by a few hundred thousand civilian deaths that's good! I don't want my government killing people who mean me no harm. How many civilians died during Iraq War 2 and there after? Have we found those WMD yet? I'm still waiting. And yet the same people who wanted us to attack Iraq now want us to attack Iran.
     

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