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UPS to run Rinnai heater?

garandman

garandman

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We have a small house near Mt Sunapee that we will use mostly during ski season. Heat is a combination of wood stove, electric baseboards and a propane fueled Rinnai wall heater. Currently there is no whole house drain though we can shut off the water pump to minimize potential damage from frozen pipes.

According to neighbors, power outages are common. The Rinnai needs electrical power to run the igniter and fan but power required is only 121 watts - less than some laptops.

Anyone use a UPS to power a wall heater or pellet stove? It looks like I can get one for $500 to $1,000 that will run it for two to four days.
 
Just curious, what UPS were you looking at? I had thought about this for a pellet stove, but I only knew about the ones designed for PCs which are way too small.

They do have those style of wall heaters that use propane and don't require any electricity. They of course won't be blowing air into the room with a fan. IIRC they could optionally use a the fan if electricity was provided. And, Rinnai doesn't make them; I think Monitor still does. If you're looking at a UPS that could cost $1000, you might as well consider one of these since they shouldn't cost much more than $1000.

My mother actually has and uses an interesting device they don't make anymore. It is a standalone stove/oven with built-in propane heater in the side. This requires no electricity. It uses pilot lights. She heats the whole house with it.

You could also drain the pipes. It sounds expensive to leave the heat on all winter. Sure, it's a pain, but once you get into the pattern of doing it it isn't so bad. The biggest annoyance is buying RV antifreeze to put in the traps.
 
I think the money that you're looking at could be put into making the house easily winterize-able. I don't know if I'd trust the well being of the pipes to a UPS, not knowing whether the power is gonna come back and when. Talk with a plumber about what it would take, it may be easier than you think.
 
Prepper said:
Just curious, what UPS were you looking at? I had thought about this for a pellet stove, but I only knew about the ones designed for PCs which are way too small.

They do have those style of wall heaters that use propane and don't require any electricity. They of course won't be blowing air into the room with a fan. IIRC they could optionally use a the fan if electricity was provided. And, Rinnai doesn't make them; I think Monitor still does. If you're looking at a UPS that could cost $1000, you might as well consider one of these since they shouldn't cost much more than $1000.

My mother actually has and uses an interesting device they don't make anymore. It is a standalone stove/oven with built-in propane heater in the side. This requires no electricity. It uses pilot lights. She heats the whole house with it.

You could also drain the pipes. It sounds expensive to leave the heat on all winter. Sure, it's a pain, but once you get into the pattern of doing it it isn't so bad. The biggest annoyance is buying RV antifreeze to put in the traps.
Click to expand...


Something like this? http://www.rayburn-web.co.uk/products/rayburn-heatranger.aspx

They are still made but quite expensive.
 
I live off grid and use a demand hot water heater (EZ-Tankless). I turn it on and off when I want to use it because it draws power just sitting there and I don't like to waste it. I use a Xantrex ProWatt 600 watt inverter with remote on/off switch.

Here's some ideas to get you started:
+ Inverter will consume 60 watts when powered up
+ Per your spec 120 watts is needed for the water heater
+ A pellet stove will use about 300 watts when operating (depends on model use a kill-a-watt meter and measure yours)

An inverter connected to a 120 amp hour deep cycle marine battery will give you the following approximate run times:

+ Inverter powered up with nothing else (200 hours)
+ Inverter powering your hot water heater (10 hours)
+ Inverter powering pellet stove (4 hours)

Buy a pair of deep cycle marine batteries and put them in parallel and double those times. Charge up the battery bank with an AC powered charger or buy a solar panel if you want to get fancy.

Deep cycle marine battery is $77 at walmart and the Xantrex 600 watt inverter is $183 on Amazon. Add a few bucks for wire, fuses, switches, etc.
 
You could run a small ups and connect a couple large deep cycle batteries to it with a solar charger to keep the batteries fresh. It shouldnt be hard to find a decent APC 500 watt ups. I have a couple if you want to go that route.
 
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Prepper said:
No I did not. I would like to know why a drain plug cannot be installed. It seems cheaper than buying a $1000 UPS system.
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We are having a plumber come to look at everything. But the house is built on a slab and we're not sure if it can't be done or wasn't done.

The house is small, reasonably well insulated and was designed to be passive solar. Adding another heat source wouldn't be easy and the Rinnai works really well so a UPS might actually be the cheapest option.
 
garandman said:
We are having a plumber come to look at everything. But the house is built on a slab and we're not sure if it can't be done or wasn't done.

The house is small, reasonably well insulated and was designed to be passive solar. Adding another heat source wouldn't be easy and the Rinnai works really well so a UPS might actually be the cheapest option.
Click to expand...

I see. There may be a way to drain it but without knowing all the details, all I can do is throw out guesses on what to do. When I had a cabin, the trickiest part to drain was the pipe that went down to the well. That thing burst several times despite being "drained"... it sucked.

UPS may be your best choice. Does the Rinnai have any fan setting that'd use less power to extend the amount of time you can survive an outage?
 
Just be aware some of the pellet stoves know it's a UPS. My harmon actually can detect the APC UPS's frequency and initiates a controlled shutdown burn. It's a safety feature in the event of a power outage.
 
wait a second! Are you thinking about getting a UPS to prevent the hot water heater from freezing? This is an on demand hot water heater?

You realize that NOTHING happens in a demand hot water heater until you turn the faucet. Meaning you can have all the AC power you need to power it....its still gonna freeze if the temp goes below 32.

garandman said:
We are having a plumber come to look at everything. But the house is built on a slab and we're not sure if it can't be done or wasn't done.

The house is small, reasonably well insulated and was designed to be passive solar. Adding another heat source wouldn't be easy and the Rinnai works really well so a UPS might actually be the cheapest option.
Click to expand...
 
GomerPile said:
wait a second! Are you thinking about getting a UPS to prevent the hot water heater from freezing? This is an on demand hot water heater?

You realize that NOTHING happens in a demand hot water heater until you turn the faucet. Meaning you can have all the AC power you need to power it....its still gonna freeze if the temp goes below 32.
Click to expand...

He is talking about the heater for the house so the pipes don't freeze. So that would keep any water in the on demand water heater from freezing too.
 
Mowat said:
Just be aware some of the pellet stoves know it's a UPS. My harmon actually can detect the APC UPS's frequency and initiates a controlled shutdown burn. It's a safety feature in the event of a power outage.
Click to expand...

I have a Harman and didn't realize it might not cooperate with a UPS. Do they all do this?
 
Since you mostly use the house during the winter, I can see why you would want to avoid draining down (or blowing out the water with compressed air) in between weekend visits.

Prepper said:
I have a Harman and didn't realize it might not cooperate with a UPS. Do they all do this?
Click to expand...
Not all -- Harman specifically requires certain APC or TrippLite UPS for this feature to work, Many pellet stoves are designed to run off a UPS (Harman's Surefire 512h is an inverter that can run off a 12V battery bank), a few companies make a pellet stove that can be directly powered from 12VDC.

Prepper said:
They do have those style of wall heaters that use propane and don't require any electricity. They of course won't be blowing air into the room with a fan. IIRC they could optionally use a the fan if electricity was provided. And, Rinnai doesn't make them; I think Monitor still does. If you're looking at a UPS that could cost $1000, you might as well consider one of these since they shouldn't cost much more than $1000.
Click to expand...

I agree -- adding a backup a propane-fired "gravity" direct vent furnace might be less expensive than a big UPS. Empire, Williams, and others make electricity-free modles which have a thermostat running off a microvolt pilot, require no line power.
 
How old is the house? Was this a year round house before you got it? Is the house brand new and this is its first winter? What was done in the past?

Is this heat source just for the well pump and lines or is this for the whole house?

For everything in the house you can cut a shut off and a drain down spigot above the well pump to drain down the sinks toilets and showers. That is easy enough. Turn the shut off attach a short hose to the drain down spigot and let that drain into a bucket then just open all the faucets and flush the toilets. When the water stops draining out into the bucket put RV - anti freeze (you can use vodka too. When I had a boat some people would buy a case of cheap vodka instead so they didn't use any chemicals...at least that was their excuse) in the bowls, tanks and traps and you don't have to worry about any of those items for the winter. For the toilets you can sop up all the water out of the tank, fill those with anti freeze and then flush them. That will clear all the water out of the tank and flush system. Then pour another gallon or so into the bowl. As far as the well pump I don't have a clue. I never dealt with a well before. But if you do this every thing above the well pump will be fine.Oh yeah, if you have them disconnect the lines to the washing machine and open that valve too for the drain down. If you wanted to get real crazy you could use that drain down and pump the anti-freeze up through all of your lines. I don't know if I would recommend that but you could do that. I think draining them and leaving the faucets open should be good. The whole process shouldn't take more than an hour depending on how many bathrooms you have. A kitchen a bath and a laundry...less than 30 minutes once the shut off and drain are cut in.

If you go this route use the RV anti-freeze from an RV dealer or marine store. The vodka is an even more eco friendly way to go.

If you use the vodka keep this in mind:

What is the freezing point of vodka?
80 proof vodka will freeze at approximately -26.95 °C or -16.51 °F.

100 proof vodka will freeze at approximately -40.43 °C or -40.78 °F
(Pure ethanol, the active ingredient in vodka, freezes at −114.3 °C).

Now I got this off the internet so you should double check this to be sure.

Just above my water meter coming in my house I have a drain down spigot. It helps when I need to drain my house down. Not often but it is necessary sometime to get all the water out of the lines when I need to make a modification to the system.
 
southshore said:
I think Prepper was thinking of a gravity style propane heater like this. Gravity heater with no fan and standing pilot so no power is required. Possibly install in the room where the water service is located and leave the thermostat turned way down so it only comes on when it gets real cold.

http://www.grainger.com/product/EMPIRE-Wall-Furnace-4LGA2
Click to expand...

Yes that is the one. I have not heard of them called "gravity heater" before though. Propane floats. :)

I may put a unit just like that in my future cabin someday, if I somehow don't want to bother with the wood stove.
 
Going to wait and talk to the plumber. I we can drain the system we can shut the place down.

House was built in the late 80's to be lived in year-round. But the owner often spent extended time in FL so we'll pin it down.

I've learned powering Rinnai tankless water heaters with UPS is somewhat common.
 
I would be really surprised if there was no way to drain the system built in to the plumbing. It's super common, and probably code, even in the 80's. If not, I can't imagine that putting one in could be a huge challenge. All you need to do is cut one of the supply pipes at the lowest point and install a valve. As someone else mentioned, you could use a small air compressor to get more out. I also can't imagine why a line to the well would freeze. That should be buried below the frost line, specifically so there isn't a problem with that. My suspicion is that a lot of these issues are created by some homeowner "expert", (not meaning you, OP) messing things up with a half-ass job.
 
clr8ter said:
I would be really surprised if there was no way to drain the system built in to the plumbing. It's super common, and probably code, even in the 80's. If not, I can't imagine that putting one in could be a huge challenge. All you need to do is cut one of the supply pipes at the lowest point and install a valve. As someone else mentioned, you could use a small air compressor to get more out. I also can't imagine why a line to the well would freeze. That should be buried below the frost line, specifically so there isn't a problem with that. My suspicion is that a lot of these issues are created by some homeowner "expert", (not meaning you, OP) messing things up with a half-ass job.
Click to expand...

The line to the well can freeze between the drain and where it enters the ground, unless you are somehow able to drain it below this point (unlikely if you have a slab). I'm no expert here but I think the proper way to prevent that is to make sure the water just drops back down into the well and doesn't sit in the pipe like it did in my poorly designed cabin I had. What they had done is to run a horizontal pipe out of the pipe to the well, probably about 4 feet down... The house was on a slope so the pipe ran towards the downward slope until it exited the ground. There was a valve on the end. The last thing I had to do was open that valve and let the water run out that is above this connection but below the water heater plug where I drained it. Very stupidly designed... That horizontal pipe kept freezing and bursting both when in use and not in use.

Hopefully the OP doesn't have such problems.
 
There is a point called the frost line. Below this, the ground doesn't freeze. Therefore, water in a pipe buried below this won't freeze, either. But the frost line varies. I don't know about other well/pump types, but a deep drilled well with a submersible pump at the bottom isn't supposed to drain back into the well. If the pipe exits the foundation below the frost line, and enters the week below the frost line, there should be no issue. With a slab foundation, this might be a little more complicated, possibly involving insulation, but it shouldn't be real hard to get it right.
 
clr8ter said:
There is a point called the frost line. Below this, the ground doesn't freeze. Therefore, water in a pipe buried below this won't freeze, either. But the frost line varies. I don't know about other well/pump types, but a deep drilled well with a submersible pump at the bottom isn't supposed to drain back into the well. If the pipe exits the foundation below the frost line, and enters the week below the frost line, there should be no issue. With a slab foundation, this might be a little more complicated, possibly involving insulation, but it shouldn't be real hard to get it right.
Click to expand...

Okay thanks, I guess it makes sense the water wouldn't drain back down into the well; I would assume there's a check valve down there to prevent it.

The place where the pipe exits the ground below the frost line, and into the house, is where possible freezing could happen if the basement drops below freezing. And, it likely would around here if the house was no longer being heated. My previous house's basement has dropped to 35F while it was being heated upstairs, and current house to about 40F while heated. I don't want to test this but I'm pretty sure it'd go well below 32F if heating was off, likely freezing the pipe that comes from the well and enters the basement through the foundation. Although, in my current house I'm capable of draining the pipe below where it enters the foundation (since all the equipment is lower than that entry point, along the basement floor). For a slab and the needs of the OP though, I have no idea how that works. And now I'm really curious. Please let us know what you figure out about your situation.
 

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