Update. Framingham licensing

Thanks for all the help NES. you guys are awesome. You too COMM2A. Done with this thread.
Buncha guys that already have licenses and guns. Dont give a shit about anything else. One way.
I’m done here no point responding further
Those that haven't been tortured, or dealt with the torture, of bad licensing in MA are literally paying the way to try and limit those infringements to others in the future. I like my one-way street. Wishing your friend the best.
 
You guys are missing all this. A simple letter to the city most likely would have solved the problem.
Keep defending an organization that is supposed to defend freedom. Then Stands by the side.
This state is truly filled with 🐑.
Please close this thread. So sad to see the ignorance in our own community. This is why we get nowhere. Our own community fighting against 2a. Fight amongst ourselves. When the focus should be on Framingham or COMM2A.
What makes you think that?

Seriously - most LTC apps are not acted upon in the statutory 40 days, and that's black-letter law. AFAIK, there is no Mass General Law stating that a licensing authority must accept apps on certain days, during certain hours, without non-statutory "requirements."

If Dewey, Cheetam & Howe were to have written a "simple letter" saying, "Dear Framingham PD, please stop doing whatever you like," what makes you think that the PD would have complied?

As for closing the thread, I agree. You asked for advice, and got it. When you didn't like the answers, you decided that everyone that is not banging their spoons on their highchairs is not active enough, and ignorant. What you see as "ignorant" others most likely see as strategic.

Best of luck to you, and your friend.
 
Again I’m not a lawyer but how about a certified letter to the chief, city council and the mayor…saying something like we have gotten multiple complaints tha new licenses are not being issued until February, this is a breach of the 2nd amendment, please start issuing licensing, hire another officer if your backed up or else we will file legal action. AT LEAST THATS SOMETHING.
Did your friend try sending those letters to those same people first? If so, what was the response?

What do you mean by "file legal action"? That is not the sort of thing you just have a secretary type up today to put in tomorrow's mail.

Best of luck to your friend in his application. If nothing else, tell him to make sure he records everything such as names, dates, places, responses, etc. of anything and everything that happens and/or is said during this process.

Best of luck to you as well.
 
two things.
I think the idea behind a letter is that it does make a difference who it comes from, and that Comm2a carries more weight than a single individual. At least I would hope they do. And the cost for having a lawyer proofread the letter would be minimal. I'll tell you what, Comm2a does a letter along the lines of what I suggested, and I'll pay a reasonable fee for 1 hour of legal services. Yes, I would want to see the letter before it goes to legal, but I've already provided the kind of thing I'm thinking about so that shouldn't be an issue.

A question for the lawyers out there. Is it possible to take the state to court, or name many or all PDs based on a pattern of behavior that constitutes a 2a violation and/or a violation of MGL? This is a legit question because I do understand that part of the problem is that no single instance is significant enough or long lived enough for an extended court battle.

I'm sure GOAL has considered giving the deadline teeth or adding restrictions on extra legal requirements, with teeth, to the law. But is well aware that this would never fly in MA. So it's up to Comm2a
 
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WELL, at this point I would t want you doing anything and I know he doesn’t either. He is going to wait like a good servant pleb.
Again, I’m not a lawyer nor have I ever done this
But. How about doing SOMETHING…..NOT NOTHING.
Again I’m not a lawyer but how about a certified letter to the chief, city council and the mayor…saying something like we have gotten multiple complaints tha new licenses are not being issued until February, this is a breach of the 2nd amendment, please start issuing licensing, hire another officer if your backed up or else we will file legal action. AT LEAST THATS SOMETHING.
I can’t guarantee that would work. Sure better than what you did. Right?
And you’re saying that if you sent that letter that they will then close licensing for three years?
This makes me think a lot worse. A simple apology would be fine. Keep digging buddy.
How about this.
YOU SEND A COPY OF THE EMAIL YOU SENT HIM THAT GOT (sent back) with time and date. I’ll apologize and make a donation.
Mail Fail.jpg
Here is the bounce. I am not going to post the whole of the conversation.
What I was saying about the waiting for years thing is that if we start legal action, it could be years before a court tells the PD to do their job.
I wish you would dedicate half as much energy towards the people actually in the wrong here (Framingham) and not rake Comm2A over the coals for something we simply cannot do fast enough for your liking.
We are a small volunteer organization. There is only so much we can do, which is why we ask folks to advocate for themselves first, then have some sort of paper trail established if we need to move to a legal process.
It is not as simple as "Send letter from Comm2A and the PD will wet themselves like an incontinent quaking chihuahua". Litigation is a process, and you have to lay the groundwork for your opposing side to paint themselves into a corner so badly that any competent and impartial judge would have to side with you. The problem is that it is difficult to find an impartial judge when it comes to firearms here in the Commonwealth.
 
We have all been living with this shit since our first LTC application. As I've mentioned before I had to take a 25 question multiple choice test at the Littleton PD for my first LTC in the early 90's. Was it legal, NO! Did I suck it up and take the test? YES!

If and when we move within this State we needed to check the town to see if it's green or red.

The Framingham PD's excuse is BS BUT, as has been mentioned here many times, if you want to go ballistic with legal representation prepare for a long battle and bucho bucks. When the applicant finally gets his interview he should politely mention to the officer the hassle and ask him/her if the issue has been fixed and if not WHY. Then maybe COMM2A could send them a nicely worded letter stating the wait is unacceptable and they need to clean up their act.
That is All!
 
Everyone wants their case decided immediately. That's not how life works. Stuff takes time. This will take time. It's the way of a democratic republic. Sometimes, the individual's rights get trampled on the quest for better rights for all.
 
I'm re-posting this because I would really love to hear for someone who knows, feel free to PM if you'd rather not respond publicly.
I would think there would be something since the individual PDs are acting on behalf of the state when processing LTCs.

A question for the lawyers out there. Is it possible to take the state to court, or name many or all PDs based on a pattern of behavior that constitutes a 2a violation and/or a violation of MGL? This is a legit question because I do understand that part of the problem is that no single instance is significant enough or long lived enough for an extended court battle.
 
I'm re-posting this because I would really love to hear for someone who knows, feel free to PM if you'd rather not respond publicly.
I would think there would be something since the individual PDs are acting on behalf of the state when processing LTCs.
According to GOAL, the Commonwealth maintains that the LTC is a local license, not a state license...
 
I'm surprised theres no legal strategy for thiis. You would think an attorney could start harvesting affadavits from applicants in shit towns describing their Tutle Fun" experience with their
PD dragging their ass beyond the statutory time and argue somehow that they have demonstrated a pattern of violating it. Of course Comm2a and others probably considered it but my guess would be there are too many venues or deek-outs for the judges. "these werent really application attempts" etc. Obviously the up front thing would be "submitted to chief of police and licensing officer via certified mail" etc to start the clock.

Of course the flip side of the whole thing is maybe C2a or others dont want to attempt it because if you get a shit judge that dismisses it out of hand you set a precedent for that kind of behavior being legal and possibly block some other legal attack route.

I also realize simultaneously some PDs slow walk this shit not because of malice but because of a lack of manpower. But if it is THAT bad, they need to go to the "town fathers" and pull for more $$$ for someone to process apps, pay another cop OT, something. Of course some of the douche towns wouldnt care and their first response is probably like "Well what if we take too long"? they can wait" etc. there's no cattle prod which is like "every time an app is responded to late its a 10K fine for the city" etc.
 
surprised theres no legal strategy for thiis
i don`t think there is even such a thing, as a legal strategy against generic bureaucracy, as bureaucracy always wins anyway, that makes any struggle against it futile by a definition.
 
According to GOAL, the Commonwealth maintains that the LTC is a local license, not a state license...
I would think this one would be easy to argue against, at least in a Fed court. After all it's MGL not some municipal bylaw, and it's got the state seal right on it. It would be unlawful for a town to put that seal on anything. Now that I think about it, that seal is the guarantee that it is a state license.
I also realize simultaneously some PDs slow walk this shit not because of malice but because of a lack of manpower. But if it is THAT bad, they need to go to the "town fathers" and pull for more $$$ for someone to process apps, pay another cop OT, something. Of course some of the douche towns wouldnt care and their first response is probably like "Well what if we take too long"? they can wait" etc. there's no cattle prod which is like "every time an app is responded to late its a 10K fine for the city" etc.
I don't buy the manpower thing. A civilian admin can take the application, it's typed into a computer and the state does the rest, then it's picture and prints and back to the state. The time comes in when they add the extra legal requirements, letters, references to check, interviews, tests, whatever. All the stuff NOT required by law. They want it to go faster, stop making up shit to drag it out.

Making the chief personally responsible to meet deadlines has worked very well in NH, so there is precedent.
 
I would think this one would be easy to argue against, at least in a Fed court. After all it's MGL not some municipal bylaw, and it's got the state seal right on it. It would be unlawful for a town to put that seal on anything. Now that I think about it, that seal is the guarantee that it is a state license.
I'm with you. Talk to Jim. He's been sharing that tidbit for a while now. Maybe somebody can figure out how to get it in front of a judge.
 
i don`t think there is even such a thing, as a legal strategy against generic bureaucracy, as bureaucracy always wins anyway, that makes any struggle against it futile by a definition.
After a while, even the struggle itself becomes a bureaucracy of its own.
 
I don't buy the manpower thing. A civilian admin can take the application, it's typed into a computer and the state does the rest, then it's picture and prints and back to the state. The time comes in when they add the extra legal requirements, letters, references to check, interviews, tests, whatever. All the stuff NOT required by law. They want it to go faster, stop making up shit to drag it out.

Making the chief personally responsible to meet deadlines has worked very well in NH, so there is precedent.

Now you're just being unreasonable. ;)
 
I would think this one would be easy to argue against, at least in a Fed court. After all it's MGL not some municipal bylaw, and it's got the state seal right on it. It would be unlawful for a town to put that seal on anything. Now that I think about it, that seal is the guarantee that it is a state license.

I don't buy the manpower thing. A civilian admin can take the application, it's typed into a computer and the state does the rest, then it's picture and prints and back to the state. The time comes in when they add the extra legal requirements, letters, references to check, interviews, tests, whatever. All the stuff NOT required by law. They want it to go faster, stop making up shit to drag it out.

Making the chief personally responsible to meet deadlines has worked very well in NH, so there is precedent.
Can't be a local license.
If it were, the town could decide not to issue which they can't. Law has clearly weighed in on this, you need a license so a town can't decide "f*** it, we're Constitutional carry", nor can they just not issue licenses and not let anyone have guns, they must issue the license based on suitability.

The procedure for that seems to be "up to the town", but honestly, thats a cop-out. The rules are clearly in MGL, and letting towns violate those rules at their will or play games with definitions is nothing but f***ing over law abiding citizens.
 
Not sure why there has not been some blanket letter drawn up and signed by both C2a and GOAL going over the legal requirements for a town to adhere to under Fed, MGL, and State Licensing that could not be handed to a town manager and/or COP by an applicant or mailed by C2a. Kind of going over what they can and cannot do under currently law that may draw scrutiny from the likes of C2a. A little scare tactic preempting a lawsuit. Not necessarily saying we are GOING to sue, just saying that this is what we know and what you should do to potentially prevent us from suing.
 
Totally sucks for the young guy, good on the OP for trying to help him, however your tearing into COMM2A is not proper IMNSHO. I understand why you feel slighted by them, however it is misplaced irritation. They do what they can with the resources they have, but they are NOT "your" personal attorney's.

I just came from the PD in my small town in central MA to submit my LTC renewal this morning. The young woman who does the applications could not have been nicer. She recognized me and was a bit confused at fist because she had just processed renewals for both my wife and myself last year. (At that time, mine was a renewal of my green card.)

The fact that we have 351 different parties with their own nuances doing the processing of the licenses is a big part of the problem.

I hope your friend gets his license without further issue or delay once he is able to submit the application.
 
There is always adequate manpower when they are doing something TO you; limits only apply when they are doing something FOR you.

Welcome to Yankee government. If you aren't surly when you get hired, you'll certainly be surly soon. And the only outlet you have to fix it is the con'stich'un'see. It isn't like that in government everywhere. But certainly in New England, for the most part. (There are patches of good people.)
 
Not sure why there has not been some blanket letter drawn up and signed by both C2a and GOAL going over the legal requirements for a town to adhere to under Fed, MGL, and State Licensing that could not be handed to a town manager and/or COP by an applicant or mailed by C2a. Kind of going over what they can and cannot do under currently law that may draw scrutiny from the likes of C2a. A little scare tactic preempting a lawsuit. Not necessarily saying we are GOING to sue, just saying that this is what we know and what you should do to potentially prevent us from suing.
The towns/licensing authorities care not if they get sued....as they, as individuals, don't have to pay to defend, or pay damages. T.hat's assuming that a judge finds in favor of Joe Sixgun.

I mean, if you get charged with a violation of a law that you didn't know existed, tough sh!t. You still have to comply. Towns that are breaking laws that they know about, know that they're not doing the lawful thing... But, they're essentially immune. It was a while back, but some towns were charging >$100 for an LTC. GOAL called them out, the state Inspector General said, "You're right....tell them to stop." AFAIK, no one that was overcharged got a refund, and no person or entity faced any sanction.

I know, I'm a wet blanket.
 
The towns/licensing authorities care not if they get sued....as they, as individuals, don't have to pay to defend, or pay damages. T.hat's assuming that a judge finds in favor of Joe Sixgun.

I mean, if you get charged with a violation of a law that you didn't know existed, tough sh!t. You still have to comply. Towns that are breaking laws that they know about, know that they're not doing the lawful thing... But, they're essentially immune. It was a while back, but some towns were charging >$100 for an LTC. GOAL called them out, the state Inspector General said, "You're right....tell them to stop." AFAIK, no one that was overcharged got a refund, and no person or entity faced any sanction.

I know, I'm a wet blanket.
Not exactly true though, some towns have been sued, and other towns then changed procedure. Usually the towns lawyers just tell the town managers and COP to adhere to the law, or the town will lose money in a lawsuit, which looks bad for re-election.
Even as recent as 2020. Massachusetts 2A Group Sues Cities Over Gun License Delays
 
Not exactly true though, some towns have been sued, and other towns then changed procedure. Usually the towns lawyers just tell the town managers and COP to adhere to the law, or the town will lose money in a lawsuit, which looks bad for re-election.
Even as recent as 2020. Massachusetts 2A Group Sues Cities Over Gun License Delays
Oh, i know that individual towns/PDs have been call to account, but it's a win/no lose situation for them: If the court sides with them, 'cuz gunz!, great. If they lose, they just have to go back to doing what the MGLs say. The only people that are out $ are the plaintiffs. As for re-election, "I did it in the name of Safety!" will trump any questions about why the town got sued. If 10% are LTC holders in the town....big whoop.

That's my take, at least.
 
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