Two Dead, Three Critically Injured After Gunman Opens Fire at California Restaurant

[drgrant]

mike (drgrant) i agree.... again, i guess having a faith or not giving a damn (me) is what it is.... if it's your (my) time to go, it's time to go....

to quote chappelle... "you can't beat fate n***a"

True, but if you can tilt the odds in your favor so you stay above ground longer, wouldn't you do it?

There are tons of cases where someone's saved their own, or someone else's ass with a gun, so I think there is some value to carrying whenever it makes sense to you to do so.

To some degree or another I have to believe in the whole "fate" thing too, because where I work I can't carry a damned thing due to the laws. If someone wants to kill me they probably can do it. If some random nutjob comes through, I have a "plan" for that but it involves more luck than anything else. It is what it is.

Risk management is a different thing for everyone, I guess. I guess I'm just pragmatic. I like being armed whenever I can, but if I have to go without, I go without, because I still think the alternative (staying home because of paranoia) is f-ing stupid. One way to put it, is carrying whenever I can, is like buying a fistful of "avoid death by some criminal" lottery tickets. They are tickets for a drawing I hopefully will never, ever have to participate in. I also realize that despite having a lot of tickets, there's a significant possibility of still losing, too, and I'm willing to accept that. I also ride on airplanes knowing that the TSA is completely incompetent and might let a shoe bomber on board again. I can somehow live with that. I guess I'm a "risk taker"

-Mike

 

[Garys]

Maybe the story changed since it was first posted, but the article I read says that everyone of the people he shot was a family member of his. Not a random shooting like the one in San Ysidro way back in 1984. The story itself has no real bearing on whether one should carry all the time. Which, as in 1984, is still pretty much impossible in 2010. The take home lesson here is that right to carry hasn't advanced in CA in over 25 years. In fact, arguably it's gotten worse.

None of which will stop the anti 2A/anti freedom contingent for telling us that if we only had one or two more anti law abiding citizen laws on the books none of this would have happened.

I wonder if the guy came in with an axe if the outcome would have been different?

 

[DJ_2]

.

 

[bambame2]

What a bunch of cowards.

 

[skyhawk]

we all have "go kits" in our cars with body armor, ARs, MRE's, radios and chest rigs to resolve the situation before LE gets there...

where have you been?

"Oh shi!t, it's ChetD son!"

Forgot the most important action, call your lawyer .

 

[CRSIII]

I think I would have a hard time living with the regret if I didn't try.

 

[Jose]

6 - someone (usually Wolf223 & Greg, lately) tries to insert some sanity... and gets jumped on for it.

I hardly consider their posts on this thread as sanity.

 

[wolf223]

I hardly consider their posts on this thread as sanity.

dude...

 

[wolf223]

Once my family is under the table or under some sort of cover/concealment, I'm pretty sure I am going to try to stop whoever is shooting up the place.

All those who are willing to bet their families' lives that the shooter is not there for mass casualties go ahead and go about your lives unarmed 99% of the time or just sit under the table.

If I can get mine out immediately though, I am gone. I do what I do for mine not for society. Society is rotten and not worth saving anyway.

so you've been in a room? casually smoking a winston red when a hadji walked in (un-announced) and started shooting??? in a secure area???

 

[Jose]

dude what?

This was some loser shooting up his family in a crowded restaurant. Not Emil Mataseraneu shooting up the BoA or a scene from Heat.

You wouldn't pop this guy if you had half a chance?

 

[DukeNukem]

Hopefully I will have time to respond in this thread, just woke up and need to sss and off to work.

 

[Jose]

so you've been in a room? casually smoking a winston red when a hadji walked in (un-announced) and started shooting??? in a secure area???

I am discussing the scenario presented by the actual events in California.

But speaking in general, yes, I will do my damndest to engage someone who starts shooting up the place that I am in, after taking care of mine.

WTF is a secure location? Nothing is secure. That is a fantasy.

 

[wolf223]

yes sir...

 

[dwarven1]

I hardly consider their posts on this thread as sanity.

I rest my case.

 

[MrSparkle]

Until any of us are in that situation, none of us truly knows how we will act/react. We can say we would do this or do that but it really does not matter till you are in that kind of situation. It's primal and something 90% of us are not trained to deal with.

All I know is I would like as many options as possible. Carrying concealed grants one or possibly more options. Many who carry concealed also carry OC spray giving them even more options. The more options available, the better. Options are just that though, you don't need to exercise them. Read the situation and do the best you can with what you have. That's all any of us could ever hope for.

 

[Amurr]

After reading all the post here, i can kinda see both sides (or I guess all 8 sides) of the argument. The only fundamental truth though is that each scenario is unique and you can only hope to make the best decision possible. (kinda like Aristotle the politics, there is only one truth and that truth is an essence, not a one word answer)

Having a gun when possible opens up your options, it should not dictate your decision.

How about this:
You are there eating. This guy comes in and pulls pistols. You prepare to defend your family and try pull your CCW, the guy catches you out of the corner of his eye while you drawing and he already is set to shoot. Pops you and your wife next to you and then finishes off his kids and then takes himself out. (yes I know we are all quick draw bulls eye mcdraw but let's just say it happened)

Now we know in hindsight that this guy was there for people he knew and people he knew only. Your decision to draw a gun only made you an unnecessary victim.

I think what we all agree is that carrying daily if you make that decision come with a great responsibility. (yes kinda like superhero powers) And that responsibility give you power but also puts you at risk both legally and from life or death risk perspective. everyone is responsible or their own action and has to live (or die) with the consequences of their choices.

Nobody like internet cowboys/trolls, but I don't get the feeling a single post in this thread was specifically trying to be a mall ninja/internet commando.

Lets all agree that its a worth while argument that deserves some time to discuss and argue.

Amurr

 

[In God We Trust]

I just can't believe that someone would imply that having a firearm on your person would not help you defend yourself. WTF? If that is true, then why do we bother to carry in the first place??? Of course it is not a guarauntee of survival, but give yourselves some credit for all that range time. No LEO is going to jack you up if you take out an active shooter. Read the MA self defense laws if you have any doubt. Also don't listen to the dickhead cops on other forums that say "leave it to the professionals". I would be happy to if there were one present, but we all have the GOD GIVEN right to defend ourselves and our loved ones. I am not saying to be a vigilante and go around looking for shitbags to cap, but If someone shoots at me, I am going to return fire if possible. No what ifs, no buts. I am going to try and kill WHOEVER shoots at me!

 

[xtry51]

I hardly consider their posts on this thread as sanity.

Ease up there Jose. Sanity, like morals and religion, are subjective, not objective. They tend to be moving targets that change in a regular basis both as a whole throughout humanity and throughout our own lives. Live the way you want to live.

I think I would have a hard time living with the regret if I didn't try.

I think I should have just said that rather than entering into the tirade I did. +1 CRSIII

 

[Blitz1]

Ah, yes... the typical NES "article about a shooter" thread:

1 - post article about shooting

2 - someone mentions about carrying 24x7

3 - someone else points out that you can't live in condition 3 24x7 and that a gun won't help if the shooter catches you with your back turned.

4 - next, there's the "do I take him out if he's not aiming at me?" question.

5 - question anyone who says "no" by saying that "you're not a parent, you couldn't possibly understand".

6 - someone (usually Wolf223 & Greg, lately) tries to insert some sanity... and gets jumped on for it.


These are getting really predictable.

7 - Someone posting bullet points saying these threads are predictable with a thinking smiley.

8 - Someone else posting if you don't like what you're seeing then ignore it. (and posting a rolleyes smiley)



Oh Yeah DJ_2, you may want to reconsider calling your Wife "the big one" Trust me on this.

and the big one ( wife )

 

[Amurr]

but If someone shoots at me, I am going to return fire if possible. No what ifs, no buts. I am going to try and kill WHOEVER shoots at me!

Ummm ok, we all agree on this, but the situation in question never had active shooter taking aim on anyone but the people who were unlucky enough to know him personally....

What say ye now?

 

[CRSIII]

Oh Yeah DJ_2, you may want to reconsider calling your Wife "the big one" Trust me on this.

Damn thats funny!

 

[wolf223]

you know what Ross?

I COULD take your lunch and gas money. because i KNOW how to do it.

YOU would never see me running up on you and I'd have you sleeping on the pavement before or when / if anybody noticed....

it's funny how a wheel gun, six shooter makes someone else thing they are an expert bad-ass.

your NOT.

you (we) are gonna get shot just as fast as the rest of them, 'except you know what type of gun you got killed with..

gents, i'm i'm telling you right now.... if its time 2 go, it's time 2 go...

 

[dwarven1]

you know what Ross?

I COULD take your lunch and gas money. because i KNOW how to do it.

Yup, you sure could. Especially since I know what you look like and would be thinking "Hey, that's Wolf223... he wouldn't shoot me". BIG element of surprise, which I think was your point.

 

[CRSIII]

BIG element of surprise, which I think was your point.

Being 5' 9'', tipping the scales at 145 and looking like a complete doofuss has its advantages.

 

[KMaurer]

Boy, we've really got a bunch of stone killers here today. Too bad we didn't have them all with us when there was a lot more shooting than talking going on. The simple fact is, neither those who say that they'd engage the shooter nor those who say that they'd just try to protect themselves and their family had the slightest idea what they'd really do unless they've had something like it happen before.

Ken

 

[Blitz1]

Boy, we've really got a bunch of stone killers here today. Too bad we didn't have them all with us when there was a lot more shooting than talking going on. The simple fact is, neither those who say that they'd engage the shooter nor those who say that they'd just try to protect themselves and their family had the slightest idea what they'd really do unless they've had something like it happen before.

Ken

This.

 

[In God We Trust]

Ummm ok, we all agree on this, but the situation in question never had active shooter taking aim on anyone but the people who were unlucky enough to know him personally....

What say ye now?

Agreed, I seemed like the thread was heading more into the active shooter catagory. The actual situation was much different and even if the victims or bystanders were armed, there would probably have been nothing anyone could have done.

 

[06LemansC6]

Hopefully I will have time to respond in this thread, just woke up and need to sss and off to work.

SSS?

I assume you mean the other SSS and not the one that is typically referred to here.

 

[cekim]

No one mentioned "shoot to wound," so I guess we are doing better than average for this type of thread.

First, Condolences to the family and loved ones of those lost in this tragic occurrence.

Second, wolf is both right and wrong IMHO. Even if you are prepared, your attacker has the advantage of surprise. That said, the typical criminal is human too. They make mistakes. You may or may not be able to take advantage of those mistakes if you have a weapon, but not having one because you "wouldn't go to a place if you thought you needed a gun"TM reduces to eliminates the odds that you will be able to do anything useful.

It's hard to spot the predator in time to react, but sometimes you can see them from the actions of the other sheep before they are upon you.

Ah well, this was a cat thread from the get go, so back to offering my thoughts and sympathies to those killed, injured and bereaved by this act.

 

[TomH]

I think I would have a hard time living with the regret if I didn't try.

This is sanity.