Turkey hunting drama with police over shotgun.. advice

+1 A friend of mine was accosted by anti hunting local PD while dragging out a deer after a successful bow hunt.

PD called the fish cops; who threatened to seize his deer and go to his house and seize all his guns.

After a while he finally was able to get the land owner on the phone who confirm he had hunting permission (didn't have a written copy on him). He was allowed to leave.

What a response to a trespassing charge. This state is freaking insane. Anything to seize a gun.

Bob
 
Unfortunately, you have to keep a written letter or note from the landowner on you while hunting on private property. Not sure what the exact contents of the letter or note must contain, but you need to have something in case this happens.

That is only required in a Town were written permission of landowner is required. Some towns have have a "Landowner permission" requirement, but not the written component. Some towns have no requirement.

That said, getting it in writing is a good idea.

Under MGLs unless land is posted "No Trespassing" or " No hunting", it is lawful to hunt the land (remember, "hunting" has a broad definition) unless there are town ordinances to the contrary. Most towns had the sign on the major roads leading into town; now, it's online, mostly.
 
Last edited:
^ The actual posting of the land has to be done a certain way aswell, from what i've been told. A sign here and a sign there to my knowledge is not legal, it has to be a certain height and certain distance between signs posted 360 around the property. I've also been told the signs need to list the landowners name & address and must be signed & dated (with new date applied yearly). I've also heard of guys improperly posting land they didn't own just to keep others out. Real iffy subject but it's mind boggling why a cop would guard someones private land without a complaint, oh wait, they have nothing better to do.

I stick to WMA's, never had a problem. Had cops check me twice and EPO once, both times no problems.

Edit: what town is this? You can't leave that part out it's need to know info at this point.
 
Last edited:
^ The actual posting of the land has to be done a certain way aswell, from what i've been told. A sign here and a sign there to my knowledge is not legal, it has to be a certain height and certain distance between signs posted 360 around the property.

That is not what I was told the last time I spoke with a real estate attorney in MA.
 
I don't think it's all that fishy. Seen it happen to people. Not to me yet. They never seem to bother me.

OP's buddy did exactly what my EPO buddy told me to do (as long as I knew I was legal). Tell the cop to call an EPO. (I think EPOs pride themselves on picking on town cop asshats).

You mean that there is an agency whose agents know and understand the laws they enforce?
 
basically what this thread is saying is AN FID CARD is NOT ADEQUATE. Get an LTC. It ends all possible discussions/arguments you can have in the field on a dark and stormy night.

that is all
 
basically what this thread is saying is AN FID CARD is NOT ADEQUATE. Get an LTC. It ends all possible discussions/arguments you can have in the field on a dark and stormy night.

that is all

There was one twist - the cop wanted to see the "locked case" for large-cap transport; not required for non-large cap.

- - - Updated - - -

^ The actual posting of the land has to be done a certain way aswell, from what i've been told. A sign here and a sign there to my knowledge is not legal, it has to be a certain height and certain distance between signs posted 360 around the property. I've also been told the signs need to list the landowners name & address and must be signed & dated (with new date applied yearly). I've also heard of guys improperly posting land they didn't own just to keep others out. Real iffy subject but it's mind boggling why a cop would guard someones private land without a complaint, oh wait, they have nothing better to do.

I stick to WMA's, never had a problem. Had cops check me twice and EPO once, both times no problems.

Edit: what town is this? You can't leave that part out it's need to know info at this point.

I believe that it's "conspicuously"; there is no defined height / distance requirements, nor do the name and address or date have to be noted.

Please provide a cite for your assertion.

My Club has posted the Club's property, and the owner/date, etc are not on them.
 
Last edited:
basically what this thread is saying is AN FID CARD is NOT ADEQUATE. Get an LTC. It ends all possible discussions/arguments you can have in the field on a dark and stormy night.

that is all


LTC does not change the Large Capacity Feeding Device nor Large Capacity Firearm definitions in the MA AWB.
 
There is a law against Hunter Harassment,This is differently a case of harassment.I would contact the local police chief and Game Warden.
 
There is a law against Hunter Harassment,This is differently a case of harassment.I would contact the local police chief and Game Warden.

[rofl]

Yeah, go ahead and try that. See how far that will get you.

The cop was being a richard, but the hunter harassment law does not apply to the actions of police officer who is trying (albeit foolishly) to enforce what he thinks is the law.
 
Maybe I have a flair for the dramatic but I wouldn't have even let him touch my gun if he said he's going to take it away especially if I know I'm in the right. With all due respect officer, you aren't confiscating my gun you better check your facts again. I don't mean to be confrontational or insinuate that I want to start a gunfight in the middle of the road but at that point I don't know you from some other shmuck trying to steal my firearms. Call your boys and we can discuss this civilly, I've got all day.

And BTW, what's with the extension tube crap anyway? By that standard any damn gun could be considered high capacity. We put a damn robot on Mars I'm pretty sure we could figure out how to manipulate a gun to accept more than its intended amount of rounds.
Any damn piece of frigging Pipe is potentially illegal if intent is involved. Or so I was able to convince myself when trying to deal with a mag extension tube and CMR +MGL.



Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
 
[rofl]

Yeah, go ahead and try that. See how far that will get you.

The cop was being a richard, but the hunter harassment law does not apply to the actions of police officer who is trying (albeit foolishly) to enforce what he thinks is the law.

Truth be told he really had no interest in enforcing the law.
He was waiting for the guy to bust his balls no matter what.
The shotgun was just his in.
We had one like him around here.
From opening day till the end of the season he was on a mission to bust hunters balls.
It ended when some of us ended up in the Chiefs office with a promise to go to the local paper with it if it kept up.
Sad note on the whole thing was after he left here and moved up north, shortly afterward he killed someone in a hunting "Accident. "

Just this year we had two Yahoo's from the next town over come into the town we were hunting in looking to start shit.
When we came out of the woods the owner of the property we were on told us there were two cruisers that came in to his driveway looking for us.
Apparently someone from their town heard a shot and called.
The land owner kept telling them they were in the wrong town and that we had his permission to be there , but he said they were just salivated over hassling us if we came out of the woods and hung around a while anyway.
 
That may be under a town by-law as there is no such thing in Chapter 131
Yes forgot to mention that it was a town by-law. My buddy had been hunting that land since before the by-law was passed.

Beside the written premmission the by-law banned hunting on town land. Of which the town owns several hundred acres. If not more. The council member who pushed for that by-law has since moved across the country. Go figure.
 
Yes forgot to mention that it was a town by-law. My buddy had been hunting that land since before the by-law was passed.

Beside the written premmission the by-law banned hunting on town land. Of which the town owns several hundred acres. If not more. The council member who pushed for that by-law has since moved across the country. Go figure.


Find him and donkey punch the *******
 
its pretty funny law enforcement officer doesn't know law. actually its sad

Sounds like someone needs to learn the laws they are attempting to enforce. What a dipshit.


It has nothing to do with him not knowing the laws.

Wondering what reasoning the cop had to sit there and wait for him other than to be an Ahole.

There was no other reason. That's it. He's a jack booted piece of shit. It's that simple.
 
Here's the problem with the law as written (bolded part):

MGL C. 140 S. 121 (Definitions):



The tube can be "modified" to be "large capacity" by adding an extension. Yes, by this poor wording everything (except .22 tube-fed) with an external magazine/tube meets the above definition.

Legally, EOPS says it is adequate. I say it might not be. YMMV.
The entrapment by estoppel defense is used when you do something a government official tells you is illegal, then prosecutes you for it. Since the EOPS has officially ruled that only guns on its high cap list are high cap, this would provide an effective defense against a high cap charge. A classic example is the Ruger 10-22 - high cap mags are available, but the gun is never sold by the factory with one.

It is important to note that this defense does not cross jurisdictional boundaries. A representation as to lawfulness of an action by state authorities is not a defense to a federal charge, and vice-versa.
 
Given the "crazy things gunshop employees say" and "crazy things taught in NRA classes" there are plenty of places that a cop could have gotten the idea. Hell, some cops do read the laws and come to their own conclusions.
Some shmuck probably made a 20 round tube extender for a Benelli and did a Youtube video shooting some produce that ended up shown at a cop seminar.
 
The entrapment by estoppel defense is used when you do something a government official tells you is illegal, then prosecutes you for it. Since the EOPS has officially ruled that only guns on its high cap list are high cap, this would provide an effective defense against a high cap charge. A classic example is the Ruger 10-22 - high cap mags are available, but the gun is never sold by the factory with one.

Untrue. Ruger has 3 variants of the 10/22 that ship with a collapsible stock and 25 rd Ruger banana mag. They don't sell them in MA, but do sell them in Free America.
 
Time to set that cop up for a fall. This will take some folks with level heads and big balls. If has that and some will friends, He needs to go back to that area and do exactly a he did in this instance and have his friends video and audio record the whole thing. The shove it up that cop's ass.

- - - Updated - - -



It wasn't about hunting it was an anti gun thug cop, who did not know the law abusing his authority. The OP needs to name the dept and the shitbag stupid cop.

At the very least, a polite call to the chief to discuss this problem. We had a problem with a CT city and open carry. A polite email to the chief resulted in a civilized, professional phone conversation with the chief. The end result was that the chief updated the town's standing orders and provided a brief training on OC at roll call.

Sometimes you can make a difference.

Don

- - - Updated - - -

its pretty funny law enforcement officer doesn't know law. actually its sad

Its also very very common. The good cops will at least admit they don't know all the ins and outs of gun laws in MA.
 
I've just read all nine pages, and frankly I'm exhausted, lol...

1) I get that the EPO could clarify the hunting part, but am unclear if it's a hicap/FID thing why the stiff dick cop backed down based on the EPO's input. It's either against the law in his mind (however small), or it's not... and

2) what I'm reading here is that I have a Remington 1100 12ga, late 1960's vintage, 2-3/4" run of the mill Joe Biden special that i let my girls use turkey hunting for the reduced recoil of the gas action... break opens and pumps just wallop on them unnecessarily. Both have FIDs, both under 21... both breaking the law because with a little effort I could extend the tube?

Hell... with a little effort I could make my 870 full auto-

[/sarcasm]... or is it?
 
What it IS, is a black hole in the MA AWB that is generally ignored because it is virtually unenforceable given the state of modern shotguns. The EOPS High Capacity list is remarkably short and that is an INclusive list. If they really cared to crack down on this in an organized way, they would simply expand that list to include every known semi auto shotgun that either has an extension tube or can accept one. They clearly don't wish to open this can of worms as an organization so it is generally left alone. However, that leaves Barney Fife to go off on his own and prey on unsuspecting FUDD's.
 
Last edited:
That is only required in a Town were written permission of landowner is required. Some towns have have a "Landowner permission" requirement, but not the written component. Some towns have no requirement.

That said, getting it in writing is a good idea.

Under MGLs unless land is posted "No Trespassing" or " No hunting", it is lawful to hunt the land (remember, "hunting" has a broad definition) unless there are town ordinances to the contrary. Most towns had the sign on the major roads leading into town; now, it's online, mostly.

Check out this neat angle from New York State:

Posting Information for Landowners, Boaters, Fishermen and Hunters:

Q. Is written permission from the person posting necessary?
A. No, but written permission bars prosecution of trespass. Some landowners find written permission a convenient way to get to know guests, and to keep track of them. They write simple notes or make homemade forms. DEC also provides free blank Landowner Permission Record forms for granting permission.

Bolding mine.

(BTW, this re-infuriates me how NYS is careening down the toilet. There's a long tradition of the state encouraging recreational use of rural land, even private property, and a bureaucracy to implement that. And at this point, the D.E.C. gets paid tons of money to still behave that way, even while ghetto politicians pass laws that disarm the country folk and make much of it pointless).

^ The actual posting of the land has to be done a certain way aswell, from what i've been told. A sign here and a sign there to my knowledge is not legal, it has to be a certain height and certain distance between signs posted 360 around the property. I've also been told the signs need to list the landowners name & address and must be signed & dated (with new date applied yearly). ...

Ch. 131 §36: Fishing, hunting, or trapping on private, posted land:

A person shall not fish, hunt or trap on private land without permission of the owner or tenant thereof, after such owner or tenant has conspicuously posted thereon notices which bear the name of such owner or tenant and which state that fishing, hunting or trapping on such land, as the case may be, is prohibited.

This Masstypical vagueness is in marked contrast to NY State; more from the above page:

...Q. Must signs be a specific size?
A. Notices must be a minimum of 11 inches by 11 inches.
Q. Is any particular wording required?
A. Signs must bear the name and address of the owner, lawful occupant or other person or organization authorized to post the area. The sign must bear a conspicuous statement which shall either consist of the word "POSTED" or warn against entry for specified purposes or all purposes without the consent of the person whose name appears on the sign. These words must cover a minimum space of 80 square inches (about 9 by 9 inches) of the sign.
Q. How many signs must be used in posting lands and how close together must they be set?
A. At least one sign must be set on each side of the protected area and on each side of all corners that can be reasonably identified. Signs shall be no more than 660 feet apart, close to or along the boundaries of the protected area. Since the signs must be conspicuous, they should be high enough, and spaced closely enough to be seen. Please don't turn your property into an eyesore by using more signs than are necessary.

Q. How frequently must signs be maintained?
A. Illegible or missing signs must be replaced at least once a year.
...

(I assume that the friendly FAQ is backed up by real words in real laws, but I'm not going to bother, um, hunting them down as a cite).

That is not what I was told the last time I spoke with a real estate attorney in MA.

Yeesh.

(I hadn't previously known that the Mass. posting legal standard was "conspicuously"). One of the (two?) times I've stood on my hind legs in Town Meeting was to ask Town Counsel whether a proposed bylaw restricting size and density of signs would preclude landowners from posting their land with sufficient size and density to meet state posting standards. (In other words, if the state said it has to be a billboard every 50', and the town forbids more than one postage stamp per mile, you're screwed). He told town meeting that in his legal opinion, the bylaw couldn't preclude it, because he'd never heard of a state law regarding the posting of land.

Ironically, I noticed my first Posted sign in Mass. (in town) the very next day. (Attached to a perfunctory roadside fence on a power line RoW).


So while larueminati may indeed (like me) have confused Mass. law with that of a state that is comfortable with the outdoors, the question becomes: is there any Mass. case law on "conspicuously"?
 
Back
Top Bottom