Tulsa cop not guilty of first degree manslaughter

It is exceptionally rare for cops to be charged and even more rare to be convicted. So my thoughts? Not surprised at all. The system is corrupt to the core. Cops getting away with murder is routine.
 
If we even brandished a pistol on him we would loose our LTC and be a PP for life!
Never mind killing an unarmed person.

We would loose everything we have, including our freedom if we had acted as this officer did..

As has been said the whole system is corrupt from the police dept. to the entire judicial courts!

Why do so many police shootings happen during traffic stops?

I mean most times their just writing a ticket for a driving violation.
Why does it go all wrong and they end up murdering someone for not reacting fast enough to their commands?

If the police are under that much stress during a traffic stop the departments need to train their officer's to better handle those situations in a calmer manner.

You would think the police were dealing with IED's and terrorist at these traffic stops the way some of them go down!

It's like the police are escalating the situation. So that they can justify shooting someone for driving in a way that they personally don't approve of..
 
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Murder. Guilty

[video=youtube_share;rmIfTEZRBko]http://youtu.be/rmIfTEZRBko[/video]

[video=youtube_share;dPGdgEIlVgk]http://youtu.be/dPGdgEIlVgk[/video]
 
Based on what cops are taught: don't let suspects get back into the vehicle I think the jury was forced into the decision they made.
The Dinkheller video a lot of cops watch in the Academy:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/bearin...s-return-vehicles-murder-kyle-dinkheller/amp/

I think the jury will explain as much once the mushroom cloud clears.

That being said, I think she should have gone hands on with the guy. She had backup (another cop tazed him at the same time she shot the guy). I do think her size and gender contributed to her not going hands on and resorting to lethal force to stop a perceived threat. I don't have her stats, but Crutcher is listed at 6ft 4, 240 lbs, and I doubt she was anywhere near his size. I think the "big scarey black guy" got shot by the "physically and mentally unequipped white female cop." I don't think it should have gone down the way it did.
 
If we even brandished a pistol on him we would loose our LTC and be a PP for life!
Never mind killing an unarmed person.

We would loose everything we have, including our freedom if we had acted as this officer did..

As has been said the whole system is corrupt from the police dept. to the entire judicial courts!

Why do so many police shootings happen during traffic stops?

I mean most times their just writing a ticket for a driving violation.
Why does it go all wrong and they end up murdering someone for not reacting fast enough to their commands?

If the police are under that much stress during a traffic stop the departments need to train their officer's to better handle those situations in a calmer manner.

You would think the police were dealing with IED's and terrorist at these traffic stops the way some of them go down!

It's like the police are escalating the situation. So that they can justify shooting someone for driving in a way that they personally don't approve of..

He was high on PCP, so who escalated what? And they managed to NOT shoot him for what, 10 minutes? Until he ignored them completely and went to reach into his car... This wasn't a traffic stop. This was a loon who stopped his vehicle in the middle of the road and got out to behave oddly in the middle of the road, resulting in calls to the PD, and the officers just happened to be responding to another call nearby.
 
Based on what cops are taught: don't let suspects get back into the vehicle I think the jury was forced into the decision they made.
The Dinkheller video a lot of cops watch in the Academy:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/bearin...s-return-vehicles-murder-kyle-dinkheller/amp/

I think the jury will explain as much once the mushroom cloud clears.

That being said, I think she should have gone hands on with the guy. She had backup (another cop tazed him at the same time she shot the guy). I do think her size and gender contributed to her not going hands on and resorting to lethal force to stop a perceived threat. I don't have her stats, but Crutcher is listed at 6ft 4, 240 lbs, and I doubt she was anywhere near his size. I think the "big scarey black guy" got shot by the "physically and mentally unequipped white female cop." I don't think it should have gone down the way it did.

I don't know how it is now, but in the academy a decade or so back, they used to teach "officer/subject factors" in regard to lethal force.

It would be reasonable for a man to attempt to go hands on with another man of similar size and age. If this guy was one of the Gracie brothers and the cop knew who he was, then an escalation of force is reasonable. Same concept applies to female cops against male subjects.

Now I'm just speaking in generalities here, not about this particular case.

I personally think ordering a driver exit the vehicle is a very stupid and pointless risk. From a tactical point of view, you have a much better advantage when a guy is sitting down facing away from you if shots start flying. It should only be done if you are arresting him in my opinion.

I think what happened in this case is that the cops had no confidence in their ability to physically subdue the subject. Physical fitness and some combative (or whatever they call it) Training would have gone a long way since their were 3 (?) of them against one. He should have been tackled as soon as he started walking back to the car.
 
A lot going on in this video.

Do I think he deserved to die, nope, but what do you expect when you have 4 officers pointing their gun at you while you walk back and then reach in your car? Yea, he was high on PCP but this is common sense, he buried his own grave IMHO.

Do I think she should be charged with something, 100% yes, What should she be charged with, I'm not quite sure. She had 3 other officers next to you, the one with the tazer should've let that thing fly once he started to walk back towards his car. On the other hand, has anyone tried to subdue anyone high on PCP/Meth. etc etc? A lot of them exhibit "super human strength" and just wont go down without one hell of a fight.

Look at this video, this guy is probably 160-170 5'8" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcNTxZv8rhU


The officers let this escalate for WAY to long, and they should be held accountable for their actions. All of them were just pussy footing around him for to long.

At the very least, she should lose her job or become a desk jockey for the rest of her career. The field isn't for her.
 
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I don't know how it is now, but in the academy a decade or so back, they used to teach "officer/subject factors" in regard to lethal force.

It would be reasonable for a man to attempt to go hands on with another man of similar size and age. If this guy was one of the Gracie brothers and the cop knew who he was, then an escalation of force is reasonable. Same concept applies to female cops against male subjects.

Now I'm just speaking in generalities here, not about this particular case.

I personally think ordering a driver exit the vehicle is a very stupid and pointless risk. From a tactical point of view, you have a much better advantage when a guy is sitting down facing away from you if shots start flying. It should only be done if you are arresting him in my opinion.

I think what happened in this case is that the cops had no confidence in their ability to physically subdue the subject. Physical fitness and some combative (or whatever they call it) Training would have gone a long way since their were 3 (?) of them against one. He should have been tackled as soon as he started walking back to the car.

Agreed... It was 4 on 1 though lol Even worse.

I don't believe she ordered him out of the car though, I believe she arrived at the scene and with the car parked in the middle of the road with him no where to be found, then he approached her. (I think)
 
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Based on what cops are taught: don't let suspects get back into the vehicle I think the jury was forced into the decision they made.
The Dinkheller video a lot of cops watch in the Academy:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/bearin...s-return-vehicles-murder-kyle-dinkheller/amp/

I think the jury will explain as much once the mushroom cloud clears.

That being said, I think she should have gone hands on with the guy. She had backup (another cop tazed him at the same time she shot the guy). I do think her size and gender contributed to her not going hands on and resorting to lethal force to stop a perceived threat. I don't have her stats, but Crutcher is listed at 6ft 4, 240 lbs, and I doubt she was anywhere near his size. I think the "big scarey black guy" got shot by the "physically and mentally unequipped white female cop." I don't think it should have gone down the way it did.


I'm not a cop but I am going to be a juror in August. I think your "Based on what cops are taught" explanation and I know she said it too as I read it in the article...it is tough for me to see it that way when there are 4 cops there and the one in the back didn't even look to have a weapon drawn. With 4 cops around and one guy maybe hopped up on PCP, the autopsy revealed he did have PCP in his system, but with 4 cops I don't see that there was an immediate threat to her.

So I agree with your assessment and having said that if I were a juror on that case I would not be able to acquit her of these charges.

I said it in the Ferguson incident and I know it doesn't apply to every situation but when you out number the guy there is a greater chance you might not have to use lethal force. In Ferguson the cop should have waited for back up. Can't do it in all cases I'm sure but you have to try.

I know when she first arrived she was alone and she drew her firearm. When backup arrived and they had him covered she had time to change to a non-lethal defensive weapon. I don't know what cop school tells you about that but with a 4 on 1 and one guy in the back without a weapon drawn.....maybe she incorrectly assessed the situation.

Of course I was not there and I'm beyond Monday morning qb'ing this but even the cop in the helicopter said it was taser time....so again, for me I would have to come back with a guilty verdict on this one.
 
So the police thought the guy was high and impaired.

How much time would you want them to give your kid to live before the police shot him?
10 minutes is not a lot of time for the police to be qualified to kill someone.

Now the police have spike strips,tasers and mace. Why didn't they deploy any of them?

There were four officers pointing guns at him.

They had the advantage in any confrontation..
 
I'm not a cop but I am going to be a juror in August. I think your "Based on what cops are taught" explanation and I know she said it too as I read it in the article...it is tough for me to see it that way when there are 4 cops there and the one in the back didn't even look to have a weapon drawn. With 4 cops around and one guy maybe hopped up on PCP, the autopsy revealed he did have PCP in his system, but with 4 cops I don't see that there was an immediate threat to her.

So I agree with your assessment and having said that if I were a juror on that case I would not be able to acquit her of these charges.

I said it in the Ferguson incident and I know it doesn't apply to every situation but when you out number the guy there is a greater chance you might not have to use lethal force. In Ferguson the cop should have waited for back up. Can't do it in all cases I'm sure but you have to try.

I know when she first arrived she was alone and she drew her firearm. When backup arrived and they had him covered she had time to change to a non-lethal defensive weapon. I don't know what cop school tells you about that but with a 4 on 1 and one guy in the back without a weapon drawn.....maybe she incorrectly assessed the situation.


Of course I was not there and I'm beyond Monday morning qb'ing this but even the cop in the helicopter said it was taser time....so again, for me I would have to come back with a guilty verdict on this one.


Ianal, and not even from this country. In these cases the jury must decide on what a "reasonable officer" would do in that situation. If officers are taught to do whatever it takes to stop a suspect from reaching in his car (cause he's gonna kill you), then...Catch 22.


Re the Ferguson thing: I think the obstructing traffic warning escalated quickly into hands on, to deadly force. Probably too quickly to call for backup. Not sure darren wilson even recognized Michael brown as the suspect in the convenience store.

Iirc one of the helicopter cops was officer shelby's husband.
 
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I don't understand. 4 officers had him cornered. If Terrence didn't comply with immediate orders, why didn't they just taze the shit out of him to contain and arrest him? This verdict implies that lethal force was completely justified in this scenario.
 
Re the Ferguson thing: I think the obstructing traffic warning escalated quickly into hands on, to deadly force. Probably too quickly to call for backup. Not sure darren wilson even recognized Michael brown as the suspect in the convenience store.

Iirc one of the helicopter cops was officer shelby's husband.


Wow. I didn't know that....wonder if he was the one who said it was taser time or something like that.
 
If Terrence didn't comply with immediate orders, why didn't they just taze the shit out of him to contain and arrest him?

(1)
Headline: "Unarmed Black Saint Tazed by Evil White Police for No Reason: Abuse of Force on the Force"
He wasn't reaching for a weapon (yet) he was just walking around... how would that look?
Optics, and a heightened scrutiny of policing minorities... "excessive force" and all that.
He'd be the next Rodney King, regardless of whether it was the right or wrong thing to do.

(2)
Tazer + PCP
https://youtu.be/fNXdzPTkviM
 
Listening to some of you experts here, I don't know why we even need trials and juries. You got it all figured out. Just by watching a video on your little phone, tablet or computer screens.
 
Listening to some of you experts here, I don't know why we even need trials and juries. You got it all figured out. Just by watching a video on your little phone, tablet or computer screens.
Wow look at you putting 100% faith in our justice system. It's totally consistent, right? Nothing to question, ever.
 
Listening to some of you experts here, I don't know why we even need trials and juries. You got it all figured out. Just by watching a video on your little phone, tablet or computer screens.

I'm thinking about applying for the federal ag position once sessions gets the boot. I have all the tools I need for the job, promise to save the d-oh j a bunch of money. Can I count on your support?
 
Listening to some of you experts here, I don't know why we even need trials and juries. You got it all figured out. Just by watching a video on your little phone, tablet or computer screens.



The cop who was heard in video felt the taser was required and I consider him and expert. Yes, he has literally a bird's eye view but she was surrounded by three other cops. The cop in the back was so concerned for his safety that he didn't even draw a weapon. So is he stupid or out of touch with what was going on?

Of course the jury has access to arguments which we really do not get in a news article. None of the other cops drew a gun. We don't know what affect the taser would have had because he was simultaneously shot by a cop with a gun. So we don't know if that would have incapacitated the him or not.

It would have to be a compelling argument to get me to change my mind about what I saw in the video. You know what they say...a picture is worth a thousand words. What does that make a police video with expert procedural commentary?

I don't like seeing cops go to jail either but I don't think they should freely shoot and kill citizens. And if they are in that much fear while in a squad formation then why are they even on that job?
 
I don't understand. 4 officers had him cornered. If Terrence didn't comply with immediate orders, why didn't they just taze the shit out of him to contain and arrest him? This verdict implies that lethal force was completely justified in this scenario.

This, except for the immediate.
Well before the ten minute mark the officers involved knew that they were dealing with a person who was incapable of rational action at the time. They should have acted to constrain the problem earlier rather than allow the guy to go near the vehicle. They failed to correctly control the situation in a manner that maximized EVERYONE'S safety and simply resorted to base training, ensure LEO safety above all else.

Should this one officer be hung out to dry for the entire communities failure to encompass everyone's rights in their training? While there is some responsibility to act beyond just "doing your job and following orders", I believe the entire management structure bears the majority of fault.
 
A lot going on in this video.

Do I think he deserved to die, nope, but what do you expect when you have 4 officers pointing their gun at you while you walk back and then reach in your car? Yea, he was high on PCP but this is common sense, he buried his own grave IMHO.

How do you reach into your car with the door closed and window up?

enlarged-photo-from-crutcher-shooting1.jpeg
 
I thought for sure she'd be found guilty after seeing the videos when this first happened. She even came out publicly and did some kind of 20/20 interview before the trial, which I thought was pretty dumb on anyone's part. She broke out the tears and all during the interview.

The guy was high on PCP as we all know now, sure he was an idiot for that and maybe even an ******* in his daily life, but that's not a death sentence in this country, or at least on paper it's not.

Seems to me there was a complete lack of communication between the cops on scene, as evidenced by lethal and less lethal being utilized at exactly the same time. "I'm going to taze him, if that fails keep the lethal option trained on him in case he produces a weapon, otherwise spray the shit out of him and back up and see if that will put him down long enough to cuff him."

One of the other officers could've been entering the vehicle from the offside to disable it, take the keys, look for weapons or evidence of an EDP, anything to help find out what's going on and also make sure he can't drive the vehicle away. It was a group of scared individuals working alone instead of working as a team to problem solve.

It may be Monday morning QB'ing but sounds fairly straight forward to me if you're a smart and in control cop and not shaking in your shoes over a drugged out or possible EDP.

I did not see any immediate threat to anybody. Nobody ever saw a weapon in his hands, he wasn't beating someone death at the time and there were allegedly no other people in the immediate area that could potentially be harmed. Seems they had some time to do some talking to each other and figure out a quick plan on how to secure the area and work on how to secure him.

I fail to understand (short of the obvious, an amped up and obviously scared to death female cop who didn't even stop to think that she had 3 or 4 other males cops with her to assist) what the rush was to have to end this the way it ended. Take time, formulate a plan, implement it, and adapt to the changes in scenerio. Shooting this guy should have been the very last option and only when or if he produced a weapon of some sort and actually presented a threat to someone.
 
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I fail to understand (short of the obvious, an amped up and obviously scared to death female cop who didn't even stop to think that she had 3 or 4 other males cops with her to assist) what the rush was to have to end this the way it ended. Take time, formulate a plan, implement it, and adapt to the changes in scenerio. Shooting this guy should have been the very last option and only when or if he produced a weapon of some sort and actually presented a threat to someone.

Yep, she freaked out, pulled the trigger. Then the Prosecution overcharges her based on public outcry. Unable to prove the charge, not guilty.
Should have gone with a lesser charge-negligent homicide or some such.
 
At the time she said she didn't realize the other cops were behind her. Tunnel vision, auditory blank-out, whatever. Apparently "I was scared" is enough for this jury to let her walk. Statistically, female cops are more likely to shoot you than males, given the same situations.
 
It is exceptionally rare for cops to be charged and even more rare to be convicted. So my thoughts? Not surprised at all. The system is corrupt to the core. Cops getting away with murder is routine.


Business as usual. Thin Blue Line and the Sheep stepped in to protect the guilty. Nothing to see here, move along...
 
Statistically, female cops are more likely to shoot you than males, given the same situations.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ely-to-shoot-and-kill/?utm_term=.a31c2ea0bb7a
Studies have found female officers tend to place more importance on de-escalation and community trust building. “Female officers are better at defusing potentially violent confrontations before those encounters turn deadly"
If this study has merit, then officer Shelby was a fringe female cop unable to handle the pressure of law enforcement.
 
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