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Tula .38 Steel Case Ammo Jammed Smith Wesson 438 Cylinder
- Thread starter easycity
- Start date
Hmm my tiny brain thinks this would be try to the opposite, IDK why but O think chamber pressure would be higher in a semi auto as there is less gas leaving the chamber as quick as a revolver?
Or had the case “expanded close to max before the bullet even leaves the case?
But the gun illiterate folks who have the old fashioned revolvers probably would cause service issues/damage by trying to extract the stickies with hammers/jack handles/drift pins/beer bottles or jammed up master blasters-so it appears that Smith would have a vested interest in warning again steel case ammo.
Has anyone taken the Russian stuff apart to see just how much powder is inside?
I'm not sure where your going with your comments about Smith and the owners manual.
Steel cases stick in the cylinders of some revolvers. That's a fact.
Are you saying Smith should put a warning against steel in their manuals or are you saying steel doesn't stick and everyone here is blowing smoke?
I will toss this in thier for what it’s worth, I know 3 old school USMC armorers. One of which was in for tail end of M1, all of M14 and until the A2 came along. He shoots a shit ton of steel ammo through all his rifles including some giggle switch platforms.
He and the others say the same thing , steel is fine and often there’s something wrong with the rifle if it’s not working with steel.
Also some where out there some one did a Rockwell hardness test oncsteel cased ammo. It’s soft steel. As for the “elastic” properties IDK.
Some day I might measure some brass and steel ammo before so shoot it then measure after and see what happens.
One thing that was brought up is a “engineer” said that steel cased ammo is loaded to the max of Sami specs so it will expand enough to seal, I never noticed much in more “recoil” with steel
OP if your shooting “sub moa” with brass ammo why would you want to hinder yourself using cheap steel ammo.
View: https://youtu.be/qBAh_8usXBI
I will toss this in there for fun MOA At 50’ is. .1745”
Well he might be shooting 1” groups at 50 feet ? Which is 5-6 moa ish.... for the record I can not shoot that well! I was lucky to keep my shots inside the 5 inch bull at 25 yards for service pistol shooting which is about 21 moa!!! It’s all fun
556USER
NES Member
Because they don't want potential buyers who prefer to shoot less expensive cheap ammo to steer away from their product. Will piss a few buyers off after the fact but I guess not enough to matter in Smith's opinion.
falcon123
NES Member
Thank for reminding several lessons that I need to re-learn.
First lesson is to clean my firearms regularly.
Recently I no longer feel excited in cleaning my firearms. The mechanisms are quite familiar to me by now. The SW 438 that was jammed by Tula .38 steel case ammo had about 40 rounds of Remington brass-case ammo in a previous session, and about 25 rounds of Tula steel case ammo before it was jammed in that session. It was also possible that I was not thorough in my cleaning in the past, so the grime got accumulated in the chamber.
Second lesson is not to buy thousands round of any ammo without shooting hundreds of them, no matter how mundane the caliber.
Of all my firearms in 9mm, .22 LR, .223, .38, 7.62x39, and 7.62x54R, .38 should be the oldest, and originally designed for black power. I assumed that .38 will be the easiest to manufacture. The specification will have the biggest variance. The firearms will have the widest tolerance on ammo from all the manufacturers. After shooting a box of 50 rounds of Tula .38 steel case ammo, I bought another 300 rounds. Then this jamming happened.
Non-related experience with jamming
Similar mistake happened to me in buying .22 LR ammo for my Smith Wesson M&P 15 22. I shot more than a thousand CCI, Geco without any problem. Winchester Wildcat give my jam once every 20 rounds. So I felt safe to jump on big sales. In a local gun store, I found a deal for Federal Ultra Target .22 LR 36 grain, with a plastic ammo can. Mostly for the copper coating over the lead bullet, and partly for the cute-looking ammo can, I bought a can of 2,600 rounds. First time I shot this Federal Ultra Target, it jammed my 15 22 once every 4 or 5 rounds. Obviously I could not "jam through" 2,600 rounds of this ammo. My life is too short for that. I complained bitterly on this forum.
Someone mentioned that 36 grain bullet may not give big enough recoil to operate the bolt reliably. Someone suggested that lubricating the bolt may help the jamming problem. It was true that I had been shooting my 15 22 dry, without any lubrication. So last weekend, I cleaned my 15 22, and for the first time, applied some Hoppe's 9 lubricant to the bolt and sliding rails. A pleasant surprise! Federal Ultra Target on my 15 22 only jammed once in about 20 rounds! The failure rate may be further reduced if I clean the 15 22 more frequently and apply lubricant to more places. Now I can see myself enjoy the plinking of these 2,600 rounds of ammo.
To be honest, that is not ideal. In the future, I will stick with CCI and Geco semi-auto (with bee wax). Non-stopping plinking through 15 22 is a big reward for my life. However, now I finally found a way to live through 2,600 rounds of Federal Ultra Target, and get some level of enjoyment out of it.
First lesson is to clean my firearms regularly.
Recently I no longer feel excited in cleaning my firearms. The mechanisms are quite familiar to me by now. The SW 438 that was jammed by Tula .38 steel case ammo had about 40 rounds of Remington brass-case ammo in a previous session, and about 25 rounds of Tula steel case ammo before it was jammed in that session. It was also possible that I was not thorough in my cleaning in the past, so the grime got accumulated in the chamber.
Second lesson is not to buy thousands round of any ammo without shooting hundreds of them, no matter how mundane the caliber.
Of all my firearms in 9mm, .22 LR, .223, .38, 7.62x39, and 7.62x54R, .38 should be the oldest, and originally designed for black power. I assumed that .38 will be the easiest to manufacture. The specification will have the biggest variance. The firearms will have the widest tolerance on ammo from all the manufacturers. After shooting a box of 50 rounds of Tula .38 steel case ammo, I bought another 300 rounds. Then this jamming happened.
Non-related experience with jamming
Similar mistake happened to me in buying .22 LR ammo for my Smith Wesson M&P 15 22. I shot more than a thousand CCI, Geco without any problem. Winchester Wildcat give my jam once every 20 rounds. So I felt safe to jump on big sales. In a local gun store, I found a deal for Federal Ultra Target .22 LR 36 grain, with a plastic ammo can. Mostly for the copper coating over the lead bullet, and partly for the cute-looking ammo can, I bought a can of 2,600 rounds. First time I shot this Federal Ultra Target, it jammed my 15 22 once every 4 or 5 rounds. Obviously I could not "jam through" 2,600 rounds of this ammo. My life is too short for that. I complained bitterly on this forum.
Someone mentioned that 36 grain bullet may not give big enough recoil to operate the bolt reliably. Someone suggested that lubricating the bolt may help the jamming problem. It was true that I had been shooting my 15 22 dry, without any lubrication. So last weekend, I cleaned my 15 22, and for the first time, applied some Hoppe's 9 lubricant to the bolt and sliding rails. A pleasant surprise! Federal Ultra Target on my 15 22 only jammed once in about 20 rounds! The failure rate may be further reduced if I clean the 15 22 more frequently and apply lubricant to more places. Now I can see myself enjoy the plinking of these 2,600 rounds of ammo.
To be honest, that is not ideal. In the future, I will stick with CCI and Geco semi-auto (with bee wax). Non-stopping plinking through 15 22 is a big reward for my life. However, now I finally found a way to live through 2,600 rounds of Federal Ultra Target, and get some level of enjoyment out of it.
wacko, I am of the belief that if the case material could be problematic Smith would have included this info as an advisory in order to control the amount of customer contacts/complaints and warranty complications: my limited experience has indicated the following to me and the Mrs:
Russian steel case ammo is hotter than US brass/aluminum
Standard pressure ammo in our revolvers, including the lcr 9-can be pretty much shaken out of the cylinder, we have never used the moonies in an lcr and would never have bought the lcr in 9 if the clips were required for the gun to properly fire.
Hot saami stuff, brass and aluminum, usually needs a gentle to almost firm tap with a dowel to get out of the cylinder
Russian ammo always was darn near impossible to get out of the cylinder, this, in concert with the very noticeable increase in felt recoil/rise properly (?) lead -us- to conclude that the Russian ammo was just plain hot-like +p+ hot.
This is simply OUR experience, take from it what you will.
Someone here has to have dissected and evaluated the Russian ammo and until that someone enlightens all here I'll continue to suspect the case charge rather than the case material.
And by the way, all Russian/Imported ammo-unless saami spec compliant-is specifically prohibited by Smith/Ruger and most probably every maker of any firearms in the States along with all 'reloaded' ammunition.
Russian steel case ammo is hotter than US brass/aluminum
Standard pressure ammo in our revolvers, including the lcr 9-can be pretty much shaken out of the cylinder, we have never used the moonies in an lcr and would never have bought the lcr in 9 if the clips were required for the gun to properly fire.
Hot saami stuff, brass and aluminum, usually needs a gentle to almost firm tap with a dowel to get out of the cylinder
Russian ammo always was darn near impossible to get out of the cylinder, this, in concert with the very noticeable increase in felt recoil/rise properly (?) lead -us- to conclude that the Russian ammo was just plain hot-like +p+ hot.
This is simply OUR experience, take from it what you will.
Someone here has to have dissected and evaluated the Russian ammo and until that someone enlightens all here I'll continue to suspect the case charge rather than the case material.
And by the way, all Russian/Imported ammo-unless saami spec compliant-is specifically prohibited by Smith/Ruger and most probably every maker of any firearms in the States along with all 'reloaded' ammunition.
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My first thought was that, to cope with my mistake of buying a lot of ammo that wasn't going to work out very well, was to just bring a cleaning rod to the range and run it through the charge holes every couple of cylinders to take fouling out of the equation. Knowing me, I'd probably make something that would do all 5 at once, but I'm crazy that way. Nevermind.
Anyway, the increased recoil with the Tula reported by the OP has me worried more than the inconvenience of sticking cases. Small snubbies aren't good candidates for abusing with thousands of rounds of hot loads. Given everything I've read here, I'd probably swear off this Tula stuff in the .38+P snubbie and shoot it in a .357M revolver instead, maybe in a .357M lever gun. Don't have a .357M revolver or lever gun you say? Well now you have to get one to shoot your Tula ammo. There's a silver lining in every cloud.
At any rate, there's possibly a confluence of multiple factors in the OP's case, including charge hole diameters and smoothness coupled with steel not springing back as much as brass after expanding at +p+ pressures.
Sorry for using sub-MOA in the context of J-frame revolver.
I was trying to explain why I went ahead in buying 300 rounds of Tula .38 steel case ammo. Now when I look back, I laugh at my naivete and surge of enthusiasm in rigorously shooting a small revolver.
I simply cannot explain why, after I bought my first revolver, SW 438, I developed an urge to be proficient in its use. I imagined myself shooting ten thousand rounds of .38 ammo through that gun. Thus I think 28 cents per round Remington brass case ammo from Walmart is too big a cost.
Now I know better. Small revolvers are best used in close distance defense, like 7 yards. If the threat is more than 50 yards away, it is much safer to dash away than stand and fight with a handgun. To make a small revolver useful, I only need to maintain low level of practice. The time and ammo could be better used on a full-size pistol, which can be developed to handle threat 20 to 50 yards away.
Now the calculation is different. In every session, I can comfortably shoot 20 rounds of average recoil brass case ammo. If I go to range once a month, I will shoot 2,400 rounds in 10 years. Tula steel case ammo will save me $200, which is not that significant.
I was trying to explain why I went ahead in buying 300 rounds of Tula .38 steel case ammo. Now when I look back, I laugh at my naivete and surge of enthusiasm in rigorously shooting a small revolver.
I simply cannot explain why, after I bought my first revolver, SW 438, I developed an urge to be proficient in its use. I imagined myself shooting ten thousand rounds of .38 ammo through that gun. Thus I think 28 cents per round Remington brass case ammo from Walmart is too big a cost.
Now I know better. Small revolvers are best used in close distance defense, like 7 yards. If the threat is more than 50 yards away, it is much safer to dash away than stand and fight with a handgun. To make a small revolver useful, I only need to maintain low level of practice. The time and ammo could be better used on a full-size pistol, which can be developed to handle threat 20 to 50 yards away.
Now the calculation is different. In every session, I can comfortably shoot 20 rounds of average recoil brass case ammo. If I go to range once a month, I will shoot 2,400 rounds in 10 years. Tula steel case ammo will save me $200, which is not that significant.
I don't think you should give up on it. No doubt small revolvers are best for close defense. It's easy to dismiss Jerry Miculek's abilities because his skills are freakish, but Paul Harrell seems like an ordinary human. Problem with that is that watching Paul Harrell videos makes you wonder what you're doing wrong if you can't easily shoot a 4" group with a snubbie at 25 yards. Unfortunately, the Charter Arms Undercover my father bought ~1972 is pretty much worn out. But it's all about trigger control, not recoil management, and I can practice that with a Laserlyte Laser Trainer Universal from the comfort of my desk (I've got a paper target set up on the other side of the room). The gun has problems if I shoot it, so I finally gave up on that, but it dry fires just fine.
I don't shoot steel often, I'll try it to test how they work in certain guns, but if I do shoot steel for any serious purpose it's either a single shot rifle or is a gun made to shoot steel (AK, SKS, etc.) but I have tried Tula .45 ACP in a .45 Redhawk I have and ejecting the cases was a lot tougher than with brass and I'm sure if it was steel case .45 Colt (doesn't exist, I know, just theoretical here) I would not have been able to eject it as there's more case to stick against the walls.
Steel doesn't have the lubricity that brass or nickel does, nor does it expand as well either.
Shoot brass, cheap brass .38 is about $16 for 50 rds. Cheap 9mm is $10 for 50 rds and as such, I can see why 9mm snub revolvers are so popular now.
Steel doesn't have the lubricity that brass or nickel does, nor does it expand as well either.
Shoot brass, cheap brass .38 is about $16 for 50 rds. Cheap 9mm is $10 for 50 rds and as such, I can see why 9mm snub revolvers are so popular now.
Depends on the gun. If you shoot crappy, dirty ammo or rimfire then the answer is yes, but I've shot many hundreds of rounds in a .22 revolver and haven't cleaned it and it's fine.
Depends. When you see a good sale, you have to jump on it because it won't last long and if it's a well known ammo/brand and you're shooting a gun that's known to be reliable and not ammo picky, you should be fine. Some guns will shoot different than others, but for me and my handguns, I'm buying what I can get for the best price, buying cheap and stacking deep. Half an inch tighter group at 25 yards is not going to make me want to spend $100 more for 500 rds.
For a rifle, it's the opposite.
No need to feel bad about going in deep on a deal without knowing the ammo. Consider it a learning experience, but when it comes to .22, IMO, there's no reason not to have multiple firearms in .22 LR. I have 3 rifles, 4 handguns, and a .410 to .22 adapter for a .410 derringer I have and if one gun doesn't shoot the .22 well, one of the others will.
I found out at the range my Ruger SR22 would jam each shot with Winchester White Box and at the time I had 1000 rds of that stuff, but then found my Mossberg rifle loves the stuff and shoots it really accurately.
.22's are just weird like that.
I advise you get a non-semi auto .22, either a revolver, bolt or lever action rifle. They don't have jamming issues and will even let you shoot .22 Short no problems.[/quote]
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Most of those steel cases are coated with lacquer, it softens up when you fire them. A lot of fine firearms just cant tolerate the steel cased stuff. I am thinking that 38 is a great round to reload, if you are going to shoot a lot you should consider reloading your own, of course with brass cases.
