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Trump: What ever happened to due process? (paraphrased)

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by jpk, Feb 11, 2018.

  1. Frizzle Fry

    Frizzle Fry NES Member

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    Are you autistic?

    You keep saying "due process" followed by "I GOTS ALL DUH EVA-DINCE I NEEDS". Why not take him to the edge of town and lynch him?

    Comparing someone THEORIZING or spitballing about something to a person being fired based on allegations... C'mon.

    Also "serial wife beating" isn't accurate. One wife accuses him of breaking a pane of glass on a door AT THE HOUSE HE OWNED when they were separated, the other of punching her in they eye once... that's it. The rest of the allegations are "verbal/emotional abuse" which is a very subjective thing. Is that awful if it all happened? Sure. Is it serial wife beating probably not? Have you heard that reported anywhere? Definitely not.

    I hope you're in a defensive shoot some time and wind up with some neanderthal like yourself on the jury. "O'course he did it, he's a gun guy, and they say he did it!"
     

  2. bfm

    bfm NES Member

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    The problem with Porter is he was going to have to resign sooner or later even if this did not hit the public view.

    He had a job that required a clearance and he was unable to get one. that went on long before anyone had heard the allegations.

    It becoming public may have sped up the process, but he would have either resigned or been let go at some point with out a clearance.

    Lots of decisions you make in life that are not even close to his alleged actions can keep you from getting a clearance.
     
  3. Frizzle Fry

    Frizzle Fry NES Member

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    FAKE. NEWS.

    He was not denied clearance; the process was ongoing - no decision had been made.

    In the past 3 administrations there have been dozens who waited 1-2 years for clearance.

    Lack of clearance did not impact his ability to do his job, as evidenced by him doing his job.

    His alleged actions were: punching his wife during a mutual physical altercation, breaking a small window on a door on his own house during a martial spat, being "emotionally and verbally abusive" which to the modern woman can mean everything from mental torture ala the CIA, to things as mundane as admonishing them for spending too much money.
     
  4. bfm

    bfm NES Member

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    He was issued a TEMPORARY one (since you seem to like caps) and that is how he was able to work as long as he was.

    Kelly knew before abuse reports that Porter would be denied security clearance
     
  5. Frizzle Fry

    Frizzle Fry NES Member

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    Everyone is issued temporary clearance. Even if they currently hold other clearances, or have in the past and still have a current PSI. He was not denied.

    I'm not sure if you've ever held a clearance, but there's no "you're going to get it" or "not going to get it" or "you probably won't get it" as long as the process is ongoing. It is a yes or no process, period, no discussion, and it is performed entirely separate from the job - except for the involvement of a facility officer, which in this case DEFINITELY wasn't Gen. Kelly. Temporary becomes "void" if a decision is made not to issue clearance. The rumors and talking points that are leaked resulting in this stories are generally just that - rumors and talking points.

    I've been through this ringer. I've waited six months for the same thing I already held, and worked in the facility, armed, in the mean time.
     
  6. bfm

    bfm NES Member

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    I have held several different DOD and now DHS clearances.

    If you knew everyone is issued a temporary one, why were you claiming or at least implying he was working with out one?

    As for "not going to get it" every news outlet on both sides has been reporting that Kelly was told there were red flags popping up in the background check. He had not been denied, but it was unlikely he was going to get one soon. I have seen lots of engineers either put on non government work or let go even if the denial did not come through but it was made clear that there would also be no approval any time soon.
     
  7. Win

    Win NES Member

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    I agree. Trump has a moral problem with defending Men accused of beating and/or sexually assaulting women. You may otherwise like Trump's policies. You may otherwise think Trump is a good president. But people should be able to call balls and strikes. People should be able to see that Trump has a troubling history of defending men with substantive, believable sexual and or physical assault accusations against women.
     
  8. 10thSFFD

    10thSFFD NES Member

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    I think you never been divorced.

    In this country you can fabricate anything now. What stops you?

    Did you ever try to kiss your girlfriend in the parking lot? She said:"No!"? Gotcha!

    You are either very young or inexperienced in politics. You came to a good place to learn, buddy.
     
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  9. 10thSFFD

    10thSFFD NES Member

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    Stop making up BS. Trump is asking very clearly and loudly what will stop this insanity! This is about your country. Do you want to live without any rules? Do you want to be accused and do you want your life to be destroyed without a due process?
     
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  10. 10thSFFD

    10thSFFD NES Member

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    Win, be very careful what you asking for! Think! Do not parrot BS.

    Imagine that you are running for anything and somebody will pay your ex insane amount of money to accuse you that 20 years ago you were beating her and she was so scared that she did not call police. Your life will be destroyed immediately before you can even ask for the justice.

    This is not the America we want! This is Amerika you are building without thinking!
     
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  11. Frizzle Fry

    Frizzle Fry NES Member

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    Don't be deliberately obtuse; you know exactly what I mean - that he, along with many others working in in the administration currently, and as was the case with the past 3 administrations - was working effectively in his role as the clearance process progressed. Playing stupid and intentionally misframing things like that is an intellectually dishonest practice.



    Engineers are not White House staff, and the system is such that Porter (along with others) were working within the boundaries of the system. Porter (and others) hadn't even reached the half way mark for the time in which, historically, certain past staffers were cleared or denied - under both Democrat and Republican administration. Cleared or denied; both.

    The same article you posted says of Gen. Kelly;


    “He knew it was a problem having people who would never be granted permanent clearances and he was preparing to deal with it."
    and
    "Kelly concluded that White House aides whose backgrounds would preclude them from receiving full clearances would have to go"

    This is as intentionally misleading as your own nonsense - of course he would have to get rid of people who were denied! That's the subject of this thread; due process. Whether it's a determination by a court of law as to guilt or innocence, or a decision to grant or deny clearances! The article admonishes Gen. Kelly for not acting based on supposition, but instead waiting for a "go" or "no-go" with regards to clearances, as is the standard. That is the process. That is how it is done. The problem of wondering whether a clearance will or will not be issued is solved by having a system which grants or denies clearances. That's why the process exists. To act before a decision is made, especially with regards to "people" (the statement is nonspecific and likely was not regarding Porter, or just Porter) who are doing their job effectively would be foolish.

    The article also states;

    "National security experts say that the clearance process, particularly for those joining the government for the first time and who have extensive business backgrounds or foreign ties, can take about a year — but that interim clearances like the one Porter was working under are never supposed to substitute for the real thing."

    Can take "about" a year - well, we know it can take a few months, and we know from three administrations prior that it can take as many as two years, right? Let's apply a little logic - if there was something already uncovered which would preclude the man from holding the coverage, wouldn't he be denied already? If allegations that could potentially preclude his holding a permanent clearance needed to be looked into further, that is again, the nature of the process- the temporary clearance is meant to cover the mean time.

    The last part about how interim clearances "are never supposed to substitute for the real thing" is absolutely true, and completely irrelevant - inserted into this article by a complicit media to mislead and distract the public. They are supposed to allow a person to work until that person is approved or denied. They are revoked upon denial and dissolved upon approval. That's exactly what the temporary clearance was in this case - a means for Porter and for everyone else operating under them to work while the clearance process continued.

    That's why this is taken entirely out of context by a #MeToo complicit media;

    “The concept of interim clearances was created for somebody in a position of importance to be able to come on board and start working right away while the investigation ran its course,” said Bradley Moss, an attorney who specializes in security clearance law. “I’ve never heard of somebody just being allowed to sit on an interim clearance indefinitely. It runs contrary to the entire concept of the clearance process.”

    Of course Atty Moss has never heard of it; he still hasn't heard of it. Porter was not denied, and by Gen. Kelly's own statements (and those leaked, if they're even real, to the media by "those familiar with him") he had planned to terminate anyone who was denied clearance. He hadn't done so because nobody had been denied. This is irrelevant flapdoodle meant to mislead and create an emotional response - it would only become relevant if Porter had been denied and through some failure of bookkeeping hadn't had his temporary clearance automatically revoked.

    Then we get to the real meat of the article, the blatant bullshit;

    "Kelly had been aware for several weeks that Porter would never receive a full security clearance due to a protective order that had been filed against him by an ex-wife in 2010"


    A protective order does not prevent someone from attaining security clearance. Regardless, the vetting processes had not been completed - Porter had not been approved or denied. Gen. Kelly would have had contact, at most, with his staff SFO - and if he knew Porter prior to the job, perhaps an investigator with whom he did an interview. He may well have been aware that a protective order existed, and he may have assumed that it would be a problem, but he couldn't know with certainty that Porter would not receive a permanent clearance as a result unless Porter was denied. Which he wasn't.

    Congratulations; you've bought into the media bullshit. Irrelevant nonsense and misleading out of context quote of a caliber that make the misrepresentation of 2A supporters look mundane by comparison. This article is a thinly veiled hit piece designed to confuse and rile emotions. #MeToo #ScrewDueProcess
     
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  12. bfm

    bfm NES Member

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    Deliberately obtuse? I have tried to give straight forward answers to your hyperbole and rhetoric and point toward sources, though I will admit I could do better sourcing facts if this was worth more time. Some of those source do tend to use left biased wording, but politico at least tends to also have most of their facts straight. I try to ignore the loaded words and cross reference with other articles to find the facts.

    Politico - Media Bias/Fact Check


    Yes, engineers are not White House Staff. You asked if I was familiar with how clearances work. Yes i am. I deal with them every day. And yes, some clearances do take time and this white house has the largest back log ever due to the number of them that have never had clearances in their past and have so much to declare, and then amend, and then amend (how many times has Jared corrected omissions now?). The similarity is that if it looks like you will not be approved or at least approved in a reasonable time, your boss has to make a decision to keep fighting for you or find someone else. I have seen people denied for a defaulted mortgages, DUIs, and a lot of other BS stuff. Barring something more exculpatory than his own word, do you honestly think he was going to get his clearance?
     
  13. 10thSFFD

    10thSFFD NES Member

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    Is it possible that we have a bot among us who disregards the slam dunk from Frizzle Fry and stubbornly dribbles a rapidly deflated ball out of the court?
     
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  14. jpk

    jpk

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    Speaking of Bots....where's cosmic buffoonery these days with his/her/its leftist "logic"?
     
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  15. 10thSFFD

    10thSFFD NES Member

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    Olympics? He left us with twins from the country previously known as Amerika. When you observe their slow ice skating you suddenly miss Cosmic's triple triple axels.
     
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  16. bfm

    bfm NES Member

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    I am waiting to see if his blood pressure meds hold out.

    And I still do not see his arguments as any sort of slam dunk.
     
  17. jpk

    jpk

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    ROFL...reminds me of that commercial with the sumo wrestler figure skating
     
  18. 10thSFFD

    10thSFFD NES Member

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    Look, I am coming from the side which was fighting many cases of bad and false hearsay with intention to "punish" innocent people. I wrote about those cases in other threads on this forum. My own kid was almost kicked out of the "Ivy League" just for holding doors for 3 students. If none of it is happening around you I understand why you post what you post but I see people's lives destroyed for nothing.

    Slam dunk it was!
     
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  19. 10thSFFD

    10thSFFD NES Member

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  20. bfm

    bfm NES Member

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    I see lots of lives destroyed by fake accusations as well, and it also pisses me off. For me, Porter may have a ton of reasons and explanations for what happened. But what ever happened, there is way to much doubt for me to be on his side in this. What ever happened with his first wife it is enough that he is not going to be the poster child for someone on the wrong side of baseless accusations. He is the perfect example of the bad case that makes it that much harder to defend people who really are falsely accused. How many rights have we lost here in MA because someone put forward the worst possible case to defend and that is now the case law on the subject?
     
  21. Frizzle Fry

    Frizzle Fry NES Member

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    No meds needed here, fella. These veins run straight ice water.


    You're right; I concede.

    We don't need a third party approval/denial process - we should just assume people would or wouldn't pass, and decide accordingly.

    We don't need criminal courts to determine who's a criminal - civil courts with a non-existent burden of proof do the job just fine.

    In both cases, the court of public opinion, as swayed be deliberately inaccurate/dishonest/weasel-worded media should be the decider!
     
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  22. jpk

    jpk

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    Dont forget either that the burden of proof needs to include how many hurt feelings there are instead of an enumeration of actual harm......

    /sarcasm
     
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  23. Frizzle Fry

    Frizzle Fry NES Member

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    What is "way too much"?

    Just playing devils advocate here... let's look at this through a lense other than #MeToo.

    Wife 1:
    She alleges he punched her while they argued at a hotel - she was holding a vase. She also describes "play fighting in bed" which she, in her own words, "didn't realize the severity of the situation until she spoke with a counselor" and now considers violence - where have we heard that before? Any big cases in MA where previously mundane things were suddenly deemed violent acts ex poste facto, rather than mutual horseplay? That is the extent of her claim to physical violence, and certainly doesn't make a case for "serial wifebeater" if true.

    Porter claims that she was going to throw/smash the vase during an argument, and she was struck in the eye inadvertently in the struggle to grab it and prevent her from throwing/smashing it. They both acknowledge there was a vase; was the vase broken, or not? Did he punch her and catch the vase with the other hand, or did she hold on to it while being struck? It was a mutual physical interaction, regardless of how it went down - the photo of her eye was taken by Porter himself!

    Wife 2:
    She alleges that he "punched through the door" (her words - a pane of glass was broken) to his house with her inside, then forced his way in (she was so scared that she opened the door?) to wrap his bleeding hand. According to her, he "wasn't supposed to be there" in his house. She also describes him "grabbing" her in the shower after an argument once to keep yelling at her and then suddenly apologizing - other than "verbal and emotional abuse" such as calling her names, that is her claim. Again, hardly a case for a "serial wifebeater" even if it happened exactly as he said!

    He states he was knocking on the glass pane of the door, too hard, with his knuckle, and she wouldn't come to the door. He kept pounding and when the pane of glass broke, she came to the door and he went in to treat his bleeding hand, at which point she called the police... He describes being mad at not being in his own home, and at her not answering the door when they had arranged to meet for him to pick up some papers. He describes the shower incident as him going to apologize after tempers had died down; she had stormed off to take a shower.


    We're not talking about a serious pattern domestic assault, even if we assume the worst allegations to be true... we're talking about name calling and maybe 4 confrontations over the course of 20 years, and again - worst case assumed true - only one in which a person was harmed physically, other than Porters own knuckles. Assuming it's all true as the exes put it, it's a far cry from Drunk McWifebeater who has the cops over every 2 days or takes it out on his wife. You ever gone 10 years without a few blowouts with your spouse? Never pounded your hand on a counter, or a wall? Never punched a pillow or tossed a plate (italians, greeks, anyone?)? Never chased after your wife when she was fuming, never stopped her from breaking something? None of you guys?


    Taking it from his perspective, over the course of 20 years:

    Who hasn't horsed around / wrestled in bed with their wife, jokingly? Years later that's "abuse" because a therapist says so?!

    Years apart...

    You have a big argument with your wife, she storms off to get in the shower. You're feeling like an a**h***, you go in to apologize - you put your hand on her shoulder, "I'm sorry sweetie, I shouldn't have done that" and she's startled, but accepts your apology and you guys make up. Years later, you were coming in to "grab her" and "do violence" then suddenly saw her face and decided to apologize instead. Sure! Ok!

    Years apart...

    You've been kicked out of YOUR house. You're supposed to pick up some of your things... you're knocking on the door, the wife doesn't show up, what the hell - you've got to be places, do things. Again, she pulls this shit. You're pounding on a glass door for the umpteenth time and a pane of glass breaks. She says you "punched thrugh a door" a door? Like the Koolaid man? She lets you in to YOUR house to put a bandaid on your hand, and years later characterizes it as you forcing her to let you in, to your own house?

    Years apart...

    Your wife is arguing with you at a hotel, you're arguing back. She grabs a big vase to smash or throw at you or the ground - who knows, you're both out of control. Do you try to grab it? You do - she's struggling to smash it, throwing elbows - you're trying to get it out of her hands, shouldering into her, and she gets a black eye from an elbow or hand or something. You make up and enjoy the rest of your vacation; even take a picture. It's all fun and games until she decides there was no struggle, no mutual interaction - years later, she "realizes" you punched her. But only when it's politically expedient for that to come out.

    Years apart...

    Spouses... couples... yelling at each other? Calling names? What? He called her a "bitch" that's unheard of! Leading up to a divorce? I mean, only 60% of Americans get those - this is astounding. Call some scientists. We need to study this "abuse"!
     
  24. VetteGirlMA

    VetteGirlMA NES Member

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    If we can have bad cops on the local PD and bad state cops, then why not bad federal cops? They're not beyond innocence. I make no bones thinking that most FBI agents are probably pretty good, decent people, but like any other organization they have their bad cops and the blue line shields bad cops sometimes in high places.
     
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  25. fshalor

    fshalor NES Member

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    Bias is just a filter. Everything has a filter. Everyone. Even a camera.

    "Filters against folly " https://www.amazon.com/Filters-Against-Folly-Economists-Ecologists/dp/0140077294
     
  26. bfm

    bfm NES Member

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    OK, here is my issue with the argument. You state that even if the worst is true, he only hit one of his wives and only once. I don't care if it was 50 years ago or yesterday. That is enough for me to say that he is not a person I want in the upper echelon of the federal government. In your statement here and other posts in this thread you make it sound like though that "Is that awful if it all happened?", you are really making it sound like you would be ok with someone like that being employed by the White House. Even in the best case this is someone who shows poor impulse control, anger issues, and a habit of bad choices, which again are not traits I tend to look for in people in power.

    As for too much, if this was one incident with one wife, I might be able to chalk it up to two people who just should not have got married and learned that. Having two wives making such similar statements, and an apparent girlfriend also chiming in, and from all reports on the timeline their statements for his background check predate most of the me too movement going viral, so while they might be jumping on the bandwagon now that seems unlikely for their original statements.
     
  27. jpk

    jpk

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    If there were proof to support that he assaulted someone then presumably the po po would have charged him......

    restraining orders are sadly issued all the time based on nothing more than the assertion of one party absent any proof to support allegations and is regularly used as a weapon in divorce proceedings
     
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  28. Frizzle Fry

    Frizzle Fry NES Member

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    Right - and we have a system of criminal courts, and a system of clearance vetting - to decide facts, and decide whether such a person is guilty, innocent, or otherwise. Not a court of public opinion, and not a system meant to be ruled by allegations or raw emotion. Sorry if you feel otherwise; I hope that, true to your beliefs, you get truly ****ed by rumors and allegations some day - you're a "gun person" they're bad anyway, right? That's what I feel.


    First off, it sounds "bad" when taken out of context - this is over the course of 20 years, and that's assuming it's true. And this is not a person "in power" it's a glorified deputy-speech-writer. Anybody can be driven to anger - a handful of times in two decades, by a spouse, in the context of being kicked out of ones own house or them smashing furniture at a hotel? Wow.

    We've had vice presidents duel to the death with secretaries of the treasury while in office! We've had presidents get into brawls with generals, shoot each other, prior to being elected. Sitting senators beating each other down with canes, congressmen having fistfights on the floor of the house... And those are men remembered as great leaders - I don't mean this as an ad-hominem attack, merely an example.

    I guess that's what I'm saying - if the improbable is true, and he struck his wife once during an already physical altercation, it's awful. She ought to have pressed charges. Or maybe he ought to have. I just don't think it reflects on his ability to write or edit for the White House, nor does it make him a "serial wifebeater" or anything close to it.


    Similar statements? I don't see any similarity other than couples arguing and calling names.

    If he weren't on the defensive, and we didn't have a societal bent that calls for "female empowerment" and "female victimhood" simultaneously, we might be hearing about the two crazy ex wives who were always throwing shit, locking him out of the house, breaking stuff, screaming, and being generally unpleasant. They're out there, for sure.

    The "apparent girlfriend" is unnamed and started speaking up around an election he was involved in... disappeared just as fast, too. OK. Sure, pull the other one...
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  29. bfm

    bfm NES Member

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    And a lot of women who have been battered never press charges, which is also sad. Proof of a beating means little if the wife decides not to press charges.

    I have had friends blindsided by baseless restraining orders, normally so the wife could get full custody and the house. None of them have multiple women making the same claims against them.

    I also have friends who went back multiple times to abusive husbands before finally getting out. None of them ever pressed charges.

    Also hard to feel sorry for a guy who is leaving the white house to what will probably be a lucrative private sector job.
     
  30. Frizzle Fry

    Frizzle Fry NES Member

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    Aha! The lack of charges makes it more likely that he did it!


    Thank god the two women are not making the same claims.


    So... you have a sort of personal, emotional stake in these matters? I don't think you'd make it onto a "jury", yknow, those things you don't like?


    Ah yes, with his reputation in tatters as the result of unfounded accusations, ready to be the victim of any false accusation or smear to come without anybody considering his side of things - the idea that anybody could accuse him of anything at any moment and be believed hanging over his head - probably unable to find a relationship, as a result of the entire media making him out to be satan himself. I'm downright jealous.
     

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