Traveling from Massachusetts to Wisconsin. FOPA in New York.

[dcmdon]

Lodging is NOT covered under FOPA. The PA guy staying overnight at NJ airport spent 3 yrs in NJ prison, lost all appeals.

Lodging IS covered if it is incidental to the trip. If you need to stop to sleep, you are covered under FOPA.

Incidental to the trip means if you stop to sleep on a trip between MA and NY, no you aren't covered.
But if you stop to sleep on a trip between MA and TX, you are covered.

Without reading about that specific instance, I can't comment. Could he have headed straight home after a flight? Did he instead CHOOSE to stay at a NJ airport?

Also, its pretty well established that Port Authority airports in NY and NJ ignore FOPA and let you sort it out in the courts.

 

[AHM]

Could he have headed straight home after a flight? Did he instead CHOOSE to stay at a NJ airport?

Did he run his mouth?

 

[granitestater]

Lodging IS covered if it is incidental to the trip. If you need to stop to sleep, you are covered under FOPA.

Incidental to the trip means if you stop to sleep on a trip between MA and NY, no you aren't covered.
But if you stop to sleep on a trip between MA and TX, you are covered.

Without reading about that specific instance, I can't comment. Could he have headed straight home after a flight? Did he instead CHOOSE to stay at a NJ airport?

Also, its pretty well established that Port Authority airports in NY and NJ ignore FOPA and let you sort it out in the courts.

he only got found out when he tried to re check his gun with the airline at a NJ airport.
High court denies man's gun arrest appeal

the flight was delayed and that is what forced him to spend the night at a NJ hotel. I was once on a flight that was diver to NJ, I picked up my suit case and gun case rented a car and drove home to NH. Another time at JFK airport in NY, same thing, rented a car and drove but in that case I was headed to Atlanta. Long drive to a Atlanta was far better than NY jail cell. There are options that Ishtar seem expensive or inconvenient but are far better than ending up in jail.

 

[ScottS]

Lodging IS covered if it is incidental to the trip. If you need to stop to sleep, you are covered under FOPA.

Incidental to the trip means if you stop to sleep on a trip between MA and NY, no you aren't covered.
But if you stop to sleep on a trip between MA and TX, you are covered.

Without reading about that specific instance, I can't comment. Could he have headed straight home after a flight? Did he instead CHOOSE to stay at a NJ airport?

Also, its pretty well established that Port Authority airports in NY and NJ ignore FOPA and let you sort it out in the courts.

Sorry, but the 3rd Circuit Court of Appeals disagrees with you.

The case everyone is talking about (mostly incorrectly), is Revell v. Port Authority of New York & New Jersey, 598 F.3d 128 (3rd Cir. 2010)

Basic facts: Revell was flying to PA, via Newark. Gun checked properly in his luggage. Missed his connection to PA. Airline put everyone on a bus to PA, but Revell got off the bus to find his luggage, and then missed the bus. Got his luggage, stayed overnight at the Airport Sheraton, and when he went to check in for his flight the next day, got busted. He tried to sue the Port Authority for his arrest, claiming denial of rights under the color of law. He lost.

Regarding his claim that 18 U.S.C. § 926A. (FOPA) covered him during his hotel stay, here's what the Court said (emphasis added):

"18 U.S.C. § 926A. It is clear from the statute that a person transporting a firearm *136 across state lines must ensure that the firearm and any ammunition being transported is not "readily accessible or... directly accessible from the passenger compartment of [the] transporting vehicle." Id. Looking solely at the allegations of Revell's original complaint, it is also clear that what happened here does not fall within § 926A's scope because his firearm and ammunition were readily accessible to him during his overnight stay in New Jersey.

Revell attempts to invoke the protection of the statute by alleging that "[d]uring the transportation of the firearm, neither the firearm nor the ammunition were readily accessible or directly accessible from the passenger compartment of the aircraft or the bus [that he took to the hotel]." (App. at 25.) But only the most strained reading of the statute could lead to the conclusion that having the firearm and ammunition inaccessible while in a vehicle means that, during the owner's travels, they can be freely accessible for hours at a time as long as they are not in a vehicle. The complaint reveals that Revell's luggage containing the firearm was, in fact, available to him while he was at the hotel. He alleged that, "[a]fter retrieving his bag, because there were no more connections to Allentown until 9:45 a.m. the following morning ..., [he] went directly to, and stayed the night at, the Airport Sheraton Hotel." (App. at 23.) He further alleged that he returned with his luggage directly to the airport the next day and that a TSA agent, after x-raying the luggage, opened it with a key that Revell gave him. Taking those facts as true, it is clear that the gun and ammunition were readily accessible to Revell during his stay in New Jersey and, thus, by the allegations of his own complaint, he was not within the scope of § 926A. Dismissal of the § 926A claim was therefore proper.[13]"

The Court held that the key is whether or not the gun is "readily accessible to you" while in the "bad" state, and staying overnight at a hotel clearly makes the gun "readily accessible," and FOPA does not apply.

 

[dcmdon]

This is interesting. But it is different from a person driving interstate stopping to sleep. Vastly different.

This is a case of a person who picked up baggage at a baggage counter and then brought it to his hotel. Who then the next morning tried to check it at the airport.

Again, we are getting into dealing with the Port Authority. Find me a case where someone was busted while DRIVING, not dealing with PA cops.

One other thing. ATF guidance has centered on "reasonable, necessary stops". It was not necessary for Revell to reacquire his firearms. He could have informed the airline that the luggage contained firearms and that it would not be lawful for him to take possession of them until he arrived at his destination.

Applied to driving from MA to TX, it is obvious that a stop for the night to sleep would meet the definition of a reasonable and necessary stop.

 

[ScottS]

This is interesting. But it is different from a person driving interstate stopping to sleep. Vastly different.

This is a case of a person who picked up baggage at a baggage counter and then brought it to his hotel. Who then the next morning tried to check it at the airport.

Again, we are getting into dealing with the Port Authority. Find me a case where someone was busted while DRIVING, not dealing with PA cops.

One other thing. ATF guidance has centered on "reasonable, necessary stops". It was not necessary for Revell to reacquire his firearms. He could have informed the airline that the luggage contained firearms and that it would not be lawful for him to take possession of them until he arrived at his destination.

Applied to driving from MA to TX, it is obvious that a stop for the night to sleep would meet the definition of a reasonable and necessary stop.

Don, you're completely missing the point. You're just wrong here.

Nothing to do with the Port Authority. Doesn't matter who the offending PD was. Exactly on point with DRIVING a car, if you're going to stop at a hotel.

The Court said (paraphrased): If you have access to your guns, you are in violation of FOPA, and if you stop at a hotel, you have access to your guns.

The 3rd Circuit said if you stop at a hotel, FOPA protection is gone. The ruling is spot on point with someone driving a car and stopping at a hotel "in badguy land."

 

[Len-2A Training]

Lodging IS covered if it is incidental to the trip. If you need to stop to sleep, you are covered under FOPA.

Incidental to the trip means if you stop to sleep on a trip between MA and NY, no you aren't covered.
But if you stop to sleep on a trip between MA and TX, you are covered.

Without reading about that specific instance, I can't comment. Could he have headed straight home after a flight? Did he instead CHOOSE to stay at a NJ airport?

Also, its pretty well established that Port Authority airports in NY and NJ ignore FOPA and let you sort it out in the courts.

He flew from West Coast to his home in W. PA, however he missed the connecting flight home out of Newark. Airline forced him to take his luggage (legally checked firearm) with him to the hotel overnight and when he checked back in to get that last leg flight home, they arrested him. He appealed all the way to NJ supreme court and they agreed that he never opened the bag with the gun, but he was in illegal possession of a gun in NJ. Gov. Crispy Creme commuted his sentence when he was running for president. He spent 3 yrs in NJ prison and is a PP now.

 

[ProGun]

Moral of story? Stay the hell out of NJ if you have a firearm. And with me having a nexus to the state (my wife is from there, and most of her family is there), no way I'd risk trying to use FOPA even if I was just driving through. We did visit her family on the way to FL a couple years ago. We stayed at a hotel in PA...much safer to leave my carry there!

 

[enbloc]

Traveling from Massachusetts to Wisconsin. FOPA in New York.
Don't forget to pack a map...

 

[dingbat]

Show me on the map how to drive out of New England to anywhere else without going through New York (or Canada).

 

[ScottS]

He flew from West Coast to his home in W. PA, however he missed the connecting flight home out of Newark. Airline forced him to take his luggage (legally checked firearm) with him to the hotel overnight and when he checked back in to get that last leg flight home, they arrested him. He appealed all the way to NJ supreme court and they agreed that he never opened the bag with the gun, but he was in illegal possession of a gun in NJ. Gov. Crispy Creme commuted his sentence when he was running for president. He spent 3 yrs in NJ prison and is a PP now.

Actually, Ravell (from Utah) spent three days in jail in New Jersey, and the charges were dropped four months later. Afterwards, Ravell sued the port authority and the arresting officer for allegedly violating his rights, and lost the case (cited above).

 

[KBCraig]

True, but one can minimize their exposure (ex. take I84 & I80 vs. I90)

I had zero problems on I-90.

When we moved from Texas to NH, we were towing a LOT of guns. And a lot of ammo.

Our trailer burned a wheel bearing just west of Syracuse. Because the NY Thruway is "private" and only allows approved tow operators, there was some brief confusion. I called my tow service, but a highway crew foreman blew a gasket at me and called everyone he knew, claiming I was trying to get out of the tow racket.

Look, dude... I'm just driving through. I don't know your system.

NY trooper showed up, asked if there was a problem, and I said, "No, we're just waiting on a tow. I called my service, but apparently that's not allowed, so we'll sit here waiting for the approved tow service."

Trooper said, "Okay, that's fine. Call me if you need me."

I was carrying two loaded pistols, driving a truck towing a trailer, all licensed to Texas. He never asked about guns. I was thankful, because I was covered by LEOSA for the "carry" part, but I really didn't want to go down that road.

 

[jkelly1229]

They were actually great and said NY was a Well Known pain in the ass. Didn’t ask any personal questions whatsoever. Gave me all the info I needed to push back if it got to that point With some podunk barney.

I've done it a bunch usually I just toss the glock in my luggage with a lock on it until I hit America. Never been stopped but for them to search your luggage at that point they'd need a warrant.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I've done it a bunch usually I just toss the glock in my luggage with a lock on it until I hit America. Never been stopped but for them to search your luggage at that point they'd need a warrant.

True, but most people talk their way into SS bracelets by agreeing voluntarily to a search. You are just smarter than most folks.

 

[fshalor]

Only took me maybe 20 minutes in the courthouse but with parking, walking around etc I spent a bit more time Its real convenient from I-81, only a few minutes to the courthouse area

Tried that with a camper in tow once. Not trivial.

 

[jkelly1229]

True, but most people talk their way into SS bracelets by agreeing voluntarily to a search. You are just smarter than most folks.

I think you and my wife need to have a chat

 

[fshalor]

Lodging IS covered if it is incidental to the trip. If you need to stop to sleep, you are covered under FOPA.

Incidental to the trip means if you stop to sleep on a trip between MA and NY, no you aren't covered.
But if you stop to sleep on a trip between MA and TX, you are covered.

Without reading about that specific instance, I can't comment. Could he have headed straight home after a flight? Did he instead CHOOSE to stay at a NJ airport?

Also, its pretty well established that Port Authority airports in NY and NJ ignore FOPA and let you sort it out in the courts.

I say BS and call for cite. Lens will be here soon. Or already has.

Lodging not covered. Gas and restroom stops are up for battle. Food stops or any arranged meet not covered. Visiting a gift shop along the way also not covered. Until there are cites to court cases supporting it.

 

[AHM]

Visiting a gift shop along the way also not covered.

Pro-tip: don't park in a handicapped space if you don't have a handicapped tag.

 

[StonerAndSullivan]

I've driven across the country twice (armed to the teeth) and drove via Scranton. Incidentally this is also the way I go if visiting Philly.
Lock your shit up, don't speed and dont over think it.

 

[dcmdon]

I say BS and call for cite. Lens will be here soon. Or already has.

Lodging not covered. Gas and restroom stops are up for battle. Food stops or any arranged meet not covered. Visiting a gift shop along the way also not covered. Until there are cites to court cases supporting it.

There are no cites because nobody ever gets arrested for this if they are traveling in compliance, so sorry. No case law.

You all are worrying about nothing.

How about you? Any cites that food stops aren't covered? Gas and restroom are up for battle? Any cites?
Can you find a single example of someone driving in line with FOPA requirements who stopped for gas who was arrested?

 

[Crownmarc]

It’s super unfortunate that NY is so unreasonable. Good luck

 

[dcmdon]

It’s super unfortunate that NY is so unreasonable. Good luck

How are they unreasonable? If you are driving. $50 to the charity of your choice for a single instance of a person driving through NY in compliance with FOPA who was otherwise following the law, who was arrested and prosecuted.

 

[ScottS]

I say BS and call for cite. Lens will be here soon. Or already has.

Lodging not covered. Gas and restroom stops are up for battle. Food stops or any arranged meet not covered. Visiting a gift shop along the way also not covered. Until there are cites to court cases supporting it.

A-hem.

 

[Broccoli Iglesias]

Lodging is NOT covered under FOPA. The PA guy staying overnight at NJ airport spent 3 yrs in NJ prison, lost all appeals.

That is messed up.

I dont understand, how the f*ck do serious competitors handle this stuff, specially when they might have to spend 3 days at an event?

Isn't there a big long range competition held in NJ?

I know people say if you have a piece of paper saying you are competing you are fine. But, are we?

 

[paul73]

That is messed up.

I dont understand, how the f*ck do serious competitors handle this stuff, specially when they might have to spend 3 days at an event?

Isn't there a big long range competition held in NJ?

I know people say if you have a piece of paper saying you are competing you are fine. But, are we?

How people handle this? They do not read such threads. People drive around, do not get stopped, do not get searched, do not get handcuffed, do not insult police and do not worry.

 

[KBCraig]

I say BS and call for cite. Lens will be here soon. Or already has.

Lodging not covered. Gas and restroom stops are up for battle. Food stops or any arranged meet not covered. Visiting a gift shop along the way also not covered. Until there are cites to court cases supporting it.

You demanded cites, so let's see yours.

 

[fshalor]

You demanded cites, so let's see yours.

That was my point. There are none that I am aware of which do the job. Until there are cases which validate an interpretation of the law: the system works as intended.

Until a single court case defines what it means exactly that FOPA covers staying over night with a reservation as a destination or a waypoint; FOPA is open to the interpretation of local policy for that distinction.

I believe rest stops and bathroom breaks and unplanned breakdowns are safe under FOPA.

I believe drive through runs for food are questionable, but probably safe.

I believe camping a night in a hotel in NY with a reservation made days before makes that location your destination, and thus FOPA as it is written does not protect you. Doesn't matter if your theoretical final destination is GA, FLA, or Mars.

Take away: don't get jammed up. Don't advertise. Travel safe. Avoid any non necessary stops in states which do not honor FOPA, or have laws which specifically restrict your legal and lawful possession of standard and normal things.

That is all. I have spoken.

 

[Racenet]

How are they unreasonable? If you are driving. $50 to the charity of your choice for a single instance of a person driving through NY in compliance with FOPA who was otherwise following the law, who was arrested and prosecuted.

I thought it was $100.

 

[Broccoli Iglesias]

How people handle this? They do not read such threads. People drive around, do not get stopped, do not get searched, do not get handcuffed, do not insult police and do not worry.

That is not what I asked. Being ignorant of the law is not a good answer.

 

[NHKevin]

There are no cites because nobody ever gets arrested for this if they are traveling in compliance, so sorry. No case law.

You all are worrying about nothing.

How about you? Any cites that food stops aren't covered? Gas and restroom are up for battle? Any cites?
Can you find a single example of someone driving in line with FOPA requirements who stopped for gas who was arrested?

To be fair, arrests and trials don't get you case law. It has to go all the way to a verdict for that.