Training in the Northeast - Legalities

[Len-2A Training]

This raises an important issue for those interested in training in the gun-unfriendly Northeast, but don't live in the state where the training occurs.

Most of the Northeast PROHIBIT possession of any firearms without some sort of state/local issued permit. Violations are usually felonies. Said states are also very proud of the fact that they have NO reciprocity with anyone!

So my question is as follows:

- CT or NY (state, not City) - Are there any exemptions for those attending a training course in those states, but do not have a permit from said state?

I'll offer what little info I know for other New England states:

- NH - NO problem. Permit only required for CCW, open carry doesn't require any permit. Possession of any firearm does not require any permit.

- MA - ?? I'm pretty knowledgeable about MA gun laws, but I've never looked into this one. There is an exemption for attending a gun show or match, but I don't recall seeing any wording regarding training.

- VT - NO permits for anything to do with firearms. It is a "free state".

Other members, please contribute what you KNOW in this thread? If you are not sure, please either say so, or check with your state government before making a statement . . . we don't want anyone to get jammed up.

Thanks.

 

[Admin]

Regarding this :
"- MA - ?? I'm pretty knowledgeable about MA gun laws, but I've never looked into this one. There is an exemption for attending a gun show or match, but I don't recall seeing any wording regarding training. "

The only thing the Director of High Power at Reading said for the out of staters bringing in weapons to MA, was to have a trigger lock on them until you get to the range.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Derek,

I know what people typically do but I'm not sure that it is legal in MA. MGLs regarding firearms usually take the approach that if it isn't specifically allowed in the law, then it is not legal! Bass-ackwards, but this is the PRM.

When I took the Jim Crews class at Tyngsboro Sportsmen's' Club, we had students from NH and VT (without MA LTCs) and they scrupulously locked up their guns before lunch or dinner each day. They wouldn't even wear them into the clubhouse on the premises to eat, for fear it would be a felony. This included one Corporal in the Windsor (VT) Sheriffs Dept! That is how paranoid everyone was and I don't really know the answer, but intend on asking soon.

 

[TonyD]

This is an issue Derek and I have been discussing in regards to me bringing my rifle into the state for a match or clinic. I just foresee a whole lot shit somewhere in the process. For example, the airport. I can see a huge hassle and missed flights when Barney goes apeshit when I'm checking my rifle in for my departure flight back down here to freedom.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Tony,

That is another good issue . . . what rifles can be brought in? I know that pre-ban is OK for a match (but not for informal target shooting). Don't know about "no ban" so called AWs (or "no-ban" mags). Another thing for me to check out in the near future.

When I went shooting out in the Seattle area, I used Tweak's AR15s. Brought ammo with me the first time (1999) and Northwest clerks went nuts at Logan. NEVER AGAIN, I had Tweak get some ammo and paid for what I used when we did it again in 2001.

Airport experience would probably be OK at Worcester. I wouldn't trust Logan (for anything) and if at all possible I'll NEVER fly out of there again! I've been using TF Green in RI as it isn't too far from me. I have a friend who carries and has F/A. He's brought sub-guns to TF Green as well as handguns and not had any problems at all. To date, I have NOT traveled anywhere with firearms by air. I couldn't get a straight answer out of the RI AG's office so I went without when I vacationed in FL (2003) even though I have a FL CCW.

 

[TonyD]

That's my point. I haven't flown with a firearm either and just don't want the hassle, let alone the possible legal problems from some liberal state's BS laws.

 

[Triumph955i]

- NH - NO problem. Permit only required for CCW, open carry doesn't require any permit. Possession of any firearm does not require any permit.

Wow... really? can you confirm this? I am a Maine resident, currently applying for a NH permit. But it is good to know, that if i had to, i could take a handgun on me into NH.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Triumph,

Not quite that simple. "Unconcealed" handgun (without permit) in NH means "in public view" (but I can NOT find it in RSA readily). One day while driving in NH, I spotted a pickup truck with a gun rack, hanging on the gun rack was a revolver! It was a little disconcerting, swinging in the breeze (hanging by the trigger-guard) but that fit the law.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XII/159/159-4.htm - Carrying Without a License

http://www.nh.gov/safety/nhsp/pluprr.html - for the licensing procedure. The link to RSA 159 is broken, but Google is your friend.

 

[Lynne]

As far as I know, Len is correct about there not being any wording in the MA general laws regarding someone coming into this state (MA) to attend training. At least, I haven't found the wording yet, and I've looked. (Trust me folks, it's VERY dry reading)

And, in NH, you only need an non-resident license if you plan to carry it concealed. That being said, it never hurts to get a NH Non-Res license. Unlike MA, it only costs $20 or so and you'll have it in a week +/-.

<sigh> ...have I mentioned yet how much I hate MA?? No? Trust me...

Lynne

 

[Len-2A Training]

Not to be outdone here in MA, I asked the sponsor of some training in CT about the legality of a NR (w/o a CT license) bringing a handgun for training in CT. Here's his answer (paraphrased):

CT makes NO provisions for handguns in the case of a NR for training purposes.

He goes on to say that even LEOs need a permit, unless they are on "official business". Even the instructors must be furnished a handgun to use for the training class by a CT Resident!

Pretty bad! I'm not surprised that they don't even acknowledge HR218 which became Fed Law last year (LEOs allegedly allowed to CCW in any part of US on the badge). CT is not alone here. MA and FL have declared that NO retired LEOs "qualify" under HR218!

 

[racer934]

LenS, the instructor who told you that was wrong about CT. If it comes up again, refer the instructor to CGS 29-35:

Sec. 29-35. Carrying of pistol or revolver without permit prohibited. Exceptions. (a) No person shall carry any pistol or revolver upon his or her person, except when such person is within the dwelling house or place of business of such person, without a permit to carry the same issued as provided in section 29-28. The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to the carrying of any pistol or revolver by any parole officer or peace officer of this state, or parole officer or peace officer of any other state while engaged in the pursuit of official duties, or federal marshal or federal law enforcement agent, or to any member of the armed forces of the United States, as defined in section 27-103, or of this state, as defined in section 27-2, when on duty or going to or from duty, or to any member of any military organization when on parade or when going to or from any place of assembly, or to the transportation of pistols or revolvers as merchandise, or to any person transporting any pistol or revolver while contained in the package in which it was originally wrapped at the time of sale and while transporting the same from the place of sale to the purchaser's residence or place of business, or to any person removing such person's household goods or effects from one place to another, or to any person while transporting any such pistol or revolver from such person's place of residence or business to a place or individual where or by whom such pistol or revolver is to be repaired or while returning to such person's place of residence or business after the same has been repaired, or to any person transporting a pistol or revolver in or through the state for the purpose of taking part in competitions, taking part in formal pistol or revolver training, repairing such pistol or revolver or attending any meeting or exhibition of an organized collectors' group if such person is a bona fide resident of the United States and is permitted to possess and carry a pistol or revolver in the state or subdivision of the United States in which such person resides, or to any person transporting a pistol or revolver to and from a testing range at the request of the issuing authority, or to any person transporting an antique pistol or revolver, as defined in section 29-33. For the purposes of this subsection, "formal pistol or revolver training" means pistol or revolver training at a locally approved or permitted firing range or training facility, and "transporting a pistol or revolver" means transporting a pistol or revolver that is unloaded and, if such pistol or revolver is being transported in a motor vehicle, is not readily accessible or directly accessible from the passenger compartment of the vehicle or, if such pistol or revolver is being transported in a motor vehicle that does not have a compartment separate from the passenger compartment, such pistol or revolver shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console. Nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit the carrying of a pistol or revolver during formal pistol or revolver training or repair.

 

[Len-2A Training]

racer,

Thank you. I sent it off to the person putting the training together in CT. I'll let everyone know what he comes up with. It certainly looks like a legitimate exemption.

 

[racer934]

NY State Penal Law:

http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?cl=82&a=68

S 265.20 - Exemptions.

 

[racer934]

FWIW - I have had zero issues declaring unloaded handguns and semi-auto rifles at Bradley Int'l Airport (BDL). Been in an out of there about a half a dozen times this past year with guns and ammo.

The only thing that took any time was talking guns with the TSA inspector at the XRay.

 

[Len-2A Training]

racer,

Thank you, I guess! I feel dizzy after trying to wade thru all that junk!

Problem seems to be that any training has to be NRA Certified to meet this exemption. The top trainers are likely NRA instructors, but the classes are NOT NRA type curricula. Therefore, I'm not sure that the exemption would apply.

 

[TonyD]

You can have CMP sanctioned classes / clinics in which the participants receive a CMP certificate but CMP does not set the curricula. That is left up to the instructors.

 

[racer934]

racer,

Thank you, I guess! I feel dizzy after trying to wade thru all that junk!

Problem seems to be that any training has to be NRA Certified to meet this exemption. The top trainers are likely NRA instructors, but the classes are NOT NRA type curricula. Therefore, I'm not sure that the exemption would apply.

Same here - on the dizziness and your opinion. I am taking a class in NY this summer and have had to wade through it.

 

[KMaurer]

Len,

I don't see anything in the quoted section of the CT law that says anything about NRA instruction. The section reads: "For the purposes of this subsection, "formal pistol or revolver training" means pistol or revolver training at a locally approved or permitted firing range or training facility,...". If such a restriction actually exists, it must be hidden someplace else (e.g., sort of the way the the PRofMA likes to do it).

Lynne,

Another good reason for getting a NH license is that (according toe Packing.org) it's recognized by 10 other states (AL, CO, GA, LA, MI, MT, ND, NC, PA & WY) through reciprocity provisions. Yes, that's even for the non-resident NH license. Since MA doesn't recognize anybody else's licenses, reciprocity doesn't do you any good in any of these states. A few states revognize MA licenses even though theirs don't get any recognition here.

(And you know that I hate this place every bit as much as you do, Lynne. Maybe even more.)

Ken

 

[Rob Boudrie]

NY has an exemption for poesssion +/- 4 hours surrounding a match approved by, or under the asupices of , the NRA or IMHSA (NY penal code 265.20 paragraph 13).

The MA competiton exemption (140 s131) for a gun show or match requires the individual to have a license to carry firearms issued by any state, district or territory which does not issue permits to drug users or felons - so it could be viewed as a very, very limited form or reciprocity.

NY does not issue non-resident permits (unless, of course, you are a major rock star in which case the NYPD licensing unit will come to your concert with the fingerprint equipment so you are not inconvenienced with a trip to the police station).

 

[J_Smith]

I'd be interested in knowing if I can legally take no-ban AR15's into Mass. for a specific rifle match. I can legally take my Colt M4gery there anywhere - its pre-94 and I have a Mass Non-Resident LTC Class A ALP (All Lawful Purpose). But my other AR15's and noban FAL's.........are they legal to bring in for a specific match.....thats my only concern.

BTW - anyone here who is active duty military can get command approval for a non-resident LTC Class A ALP which bypasses your local PD....much easier to get but only good for two years. Also if you fall under the criteria for the National Concealed Carry Bill for Law Enforcement you shouldnt need a permit ANYWHERE for any gun too my knowledge. This includes all federal, state, and local cops - also US Coast Guard Boarding Officers.

 

[Admin]

As long as you are going to a match and you have your LTC your are good to go. Just keep it locked in the trunk when you travel.

 

[rscalzo]

NJ

No problem in NJ but it must be unloaded and secured in a case not accessable to the operator in a motor vehicle. Use at a training facility is fine. The weapon must be legally possessed in the state of residence.

Concealed carry in public areas are a no-no. On private property (ie: range) is fine. Basically, use common sense.

 

[Len-2A Training]

MGLs allow NON-Licensed people to handle guns/shoot, as long as they are under the "supervision" of a MA Licensee (LTC holder). This loophole will legally allow non-residents without a MA NR LTC to shoot in a training course.

To transport the handgun into MA legally under these cases, the handgun should be in possession of a MA LTC holder once you cross the state line into PRM.

Here's the legal reference (and pertinent quoted text):

MGL C. 140 S. 129C (m)

http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-129c.htm

"Section 129C. No person, other than a licensed dealer or one who has been issued a license to carry a pistol or revolver or an exempt person as hereinafter described, shall own or possess any firearm, rifle, shotgun or ammunition unless he has been issued a firearm identification card by the licensing authority pursuant to the provisions of section one hundred and twenty-nine B."

<snip>

"The provisions of this section shall not apply to the following exempted persons and uses:"

<snip>

"(m) The temporary holding, handling or firing of a firearm for examination, trial or instruction in the presence of a holder of a license to carry firearms, or the temporary holding, handling or firing of a rifle or shotgun for examination, trial or instruction in the presence of a holder of a firearm identification card, or where such holding, handling or firing is for a lawful purpose;"

 

[springer]

Firearms thru logan airport

I've traveled through Logan approximately thirty times with multiple rifles, shotguns, pistols and always ammo. I've never had a serious problem, only some minor nuisances. As long as you know and follow the FAR's and the carriers regulations, you will never have a major problem. AS long as you know the FAR's and the regulations, you will be able to deflect the misinformation and bullying of airport employees.

 

[M.Nastek]

Why all the fear if you have a ccw or are legal within the state that you reside in and are not a criminal and are abiding by the travel thru guidlines of the State and you are going to a Match and its during your 2 or 3 day training session. Why is all of this rederick so constant.

If you want to train and it is at a private club and you know someone who lives in the State then they will assist you in the transportation of your firarms.

 

[KMaurer]

"Travel thru" != "Travel to"

Both FOPA and various states' laws protect the first; neither FOPA nor a lot of those state laws apply to the second.

Ken

 

[FITH]

This is an issue Derek and I have been discussing in regards to me bringing my rifle into the state for a match or clinic. I just foresee a whole lot shit somewhere in the process. For example, the airport. I can see a huge hassle and missed flights when Barney goes apeshit when I'm checking my rifle in for my departure flight back down here to freedom.

Prv airport was very good with this...as long as it is locked according to TSA..i flew Prv to Ga. ..lic. in neither state( well Non-res covered me in Ga)

 

[crak]

I just want to clarify something about nonresidents and rifles/shotguns in Massachusetts. Nonresidents with rifles and shotguns are exempt from licensing requirements while:

1. They are traveling in or through the state with the long gun unloaded and enclosed in a case.

2. They are on a firing or shooting range.

Those two together will take care of rifle training (unless of course you're not doing your shooting on a firing range, which would certainly get you on the news for all kinds of reasons besides mere possession). Note that it does include "to" as well as "thru." If anybody knows whether that extends to staying overnight in a motel, I'd be interested to know. Also note... a trigger lock by itself is definitely not good enough to satisfy the travel exemption for an enclosed case. Can we fix derek's post in the beginning about that? A locked trunk or an unlocked enclosed case would be grey areas...

I don't believe there's any exemption from the AWB. I'd be extremely happy if someone could point out where that exemption is, but I couldn't find one.

Of course, there is no such exemption for pistol training, which is why most people are posting on this thread to begin with. But I didn't see anybody explicitly drawing the line between handguns and long guns, so here it is.

My source for this is the GOAL Non-Resident FAQ page which can be found with the letter of the law here: http://www.goal.org/PDF/nonres.pdf

Also for anyone considering rifle training in CT, their AWB is much worse than the federal template. First of all, there is no such thing as "preban" there. Either you registered your rifle within 90 days of the ban in '94 or you didn't. If you didn't, posession of a banned item is a felony no matter how old it is, where you're from, or when you got to CT. Also, they ban Bushmasters specifically by name, as well as AK-47 and other "type" rifles. Somebody took the case of a Maadi AK copy to court and lost. Anything that looks like, functions like, or has interchangable parts with an AK counts as an AK "type." They didn't ban AR "types" other than Bushmaster and Colt but some other "types" are banned. Be careful... Even though I knew the details of their AWB I had to keep reminding myself that I couldn't lend a SAR-3 to a friend for the Appleseed there and they don't care that Nickle's M1A with a flash suppressor and bayonet lug is a preban.

Hey MP1911, the people on this thread are trying to figure this crap out so that they can go to courses without worrying about whether they're committing a felony or not. Take that schtick somewhere else.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

- CT or NY (state, not City) - Are there any exemptions for those attending a training course in those states, but do not have a permit from said state?

NY penal code 265.20(13) is the relevant section. The exemption covers possession in a 48 hour window surrounding a competition approved by, or under the auspices of, the NRA or IMHSA. The NRA competitions division is most helpful granting "special match recognition" to matches that don't fit the NRA format (IPSC, IDPA, etc.) at no charge, but this is done by the match, not the competitor. There is no training exemption but you might talk the training venue into keeping score.

- MA - ?? I'm pretty knowledgeable about MA gun laws, but I've never looked into this one. There is an exemption for attending a gun show or match, but I don't recall seeing any wording regarding training.

Get the instructor to agree to schedule and run a small match.

But remember, no matter who gives you the info, VERIFY IT FOR YOURSELF by either reading the actual law, checking with official state sources, or hiring a member of the bar to explain it to you.

 

[M.Nastek]

Every course that we have hosted always has a match and competition built in for just these reasons. So that we satisfy the basic requirements.