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Traditional Muzzleloader Ignition Advice

S

SJFOG

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Hi All,

I just acquired a used Lyman 45 Cal Hawken Type Caplock (Percussion) Traditional Muzzleloader. While I have two "modern" Inline TC Muzzleloaders for many years, which I have successfully used on deer, I am a total newcomer on Traditional version and I would like some technical advice if someone has the knowledge to impart.

Firstly as regards ignition, the Rifle has a No.11 Nipple, but I have visited all the local retail outlets (Cabelas, KTP, Shooters Outpost) etc. and no store has No. 11 Caps, only No. 10 Caps. Is it possible to use No.10 caps on a No. 11 Nipple (i.e. will the cap fit) and is this safe to do so (within reason)

Secondly, years ago I switched over to using Blackhorn 209 Powder as my propellent of choice. The Scoped TC Omega with 84 Grains by Volume with a 265 Grain Sabot (Barnes) returns ~1933 FPS with ~20 FPS Standard Deviation and 2" Group (3 shot at 150 Yards) or 1.33 MOA. Does anyone have experience using Blackhorn 209 Propellent in a Traditional Muzzleloader (including with a flintlock using the Blackhorn 209 as the Main charge).

Thanks for taking the time to read.

Best, Seamus
 
I'm unfamiliar with your particular rifle. However, my pietta revolver calls for #11 caps and I use #10's just because they fit more snugly on the nipple and are less likely to fall off. So they are close enough to still fit in my application and they've always been safe.
 
You can use #10's, but I find them small, hard to handle, and hard to get off the nipple after fired.

You can probably switch the nipple out to what I did. Its called a red hot musket cap nipple. I have on T/C White Mountain Carbine.

A lot larger caps than the #10, so you don't lose them and are easier than fumbling around with the small ones., more flame for less misfires as I think the nipple has a larger flash hole, and little flanges so you can pick them off the nipple easier after firing.

1670871429032.png

Blackhorn should work fine in a trad muzzleloader....it should be a lot cleaner.
 
As others have said a number 10 cap is fine.

Use REAL black powder (Goex or Swiss) in your percussion rifle it has the lowest ignition temperature and will shoot reliably. Substitute
powders have a higher ign temp and will not always fire reliably.

When you dry all, not if, remove the nipple, drop a few grains of powder in the bolster, and shoot it out. You can use the fancy threaded jag but it will take a lot longer and is a pain in the a$$.

Welcome to a new fun hobby.

Bob

ETA:
I would start with a .440 ball and a .015 patch and start working up my load at 60g of ffg at 25 yards.

I would shoot three round groups, swab the barrel, go up 5g and repeat to find the tightest group. That should get you to a good accurate load. If you find that it hard to load swab after each shot.

Once you find a good load try putting an OP (Over Powder) wad in between the powder and patched ball and it will probably tighten it up a little more

I tend to like old denim from jeans for a patch. If you use pre-manufactured patches keep in mind that they deteriorate over time.

Stumpy's Moose Snot makes a good patch lube and is a pretty popular patch lube. There are other commercial products out there as well

Stumpy's Moose Snot,
Beeswax 2 oz.
Castor Oil 8 oz.
Murphy's Oil Soap 1 oz.

Making Stumpys Moose Snot

The Muzzleloading Forum is a great source for “real” ML rifles. No inlines allowed.😆

Track of the Wolf is a great source for necessaries and other supplies.
Track of the Wolf - Muzzle Loading & Black Powder Guns Kits, Parts, Accoutrements, Rendezvous Gear & Primitive Americana
 
Last edited:
Thanks all for the great insights and advice (I am a bit embarrassed about not knowing that the name of the Blackhorn 209 is more than marketing spiel).

Bob, just to clarify are you saying after full cleaning and drying, to put a few grains into chamber and fire with a cap?......would I not need to then reclean (I must be missing something)?, please advise

I have ordered some pre-lubed patches but will follow your advice re the denim and lube and I have some beeswax due to casting lead bullets, I bought Hornady .440 balls to start with, but would like to cast my own Conical bullets once I find what it likes, but that will be a little down the road for now.
 
SJFOG said:
Thanks all for the great insights and advice (I am a bit embarrassed about not knowing that the name of the Blackhorn 209 is more than marketing spiel).

Bob, just to clarify are you saying after full cleaning and drying, to put a few grains into chamber and fire with a cap?......would I not need to then reclean (I must be missing something)?, please advise

I have ordered some pre-lubed patches but will follow your advice re the denim and lube and I have some beeswax due to casting lead bullets, I bought Hornady .440 balls to start with, but would like to cast my own Conical bullets once I find what it likes, but that will be a little down the road for now.
Click to expand...

“Dry balling“ is accidentally putting a patched ball down the barrel without putting the powder down first. This happens, to me anyway, when you get interrupted or distracted when going through the loading process.

Most will say use a ball puller (below) which is a major PITA. been there done that. Now I just remove the nipple and put a few grains of ffg in the bolster put the nipple back on, cap, and fire down range. If you want to be positive that the ball came out just shoot it at your paper target from a foot away or so.

CB4C412A-6A58-4213-870B-3BED20360B6C.jpeg

As far as far patches go you can use a micrometer to get an idea of what their thickness is. You can also buy pillow ticking from Track of The Wolf in the desired thickness.

Just like your in-line clean it and put away. The only time I will “pop a cap” is if I am loading it for the hunting season to insure that the ignition channel is clear before loading.

Some say to store upside down so that oil/gunk doesn’t settle in the ignition channel but I never did.

I always had really good luck with TC Maxi Balls (below) in mine (1:48 twist). I used an OP wad with these as well as it improved accuracy. You will have to work up a load for the conicals or Maxiballs just like the round bass. The sweet spot may, or may not, be the same


0207472C-74E8-4C1B-9F51-5AC151D5411E.jpeg

There is nothing wrong with using a round ball as well. 45 caliber ML rifles have been killing deer with round balls for centuries.

I would recommend getting a good “T” handle range rod but you probably already have one for the in-lines.

Bob
 
HorizontalHunter said:
“Dry balling“ is accidentally putting a patched ball down the barrel without putting the powder down first. This happens, to me anyway, when you get interrupted or distracted when going through the loading process.

Most will say use a ball puller (below) which is a major PITA. been there done that. Now I just remove the nipple and put a few grains of ffg in the bolster put the nipple back on, cap, and fire down range. If you want to be positive that the ball came out just shoot it at your paper target from a foot away or so.

View attachment 697220

As far as far patches go you can use a micrometer to get an idea of what their thickness is. You can also buy pillow ticking from Track of The Wolf in the desired thickness.

Just like your in-line clean it and put away. The only time I will “pop a cap” is if I am loading it for the hunting season to insure that the ignition channel is clear before loading.

Some say to store upside down so that oil/gunk doesn’t settle in the ignition channel but I never did.

I always had really good luck with TC Maxi Balls (below) in mine (1:48 twist). I used an OP wad with these as well as it improved accuracy. You will have to work up a load for the conicals or Maxiballs just like the round bass. The sweet spot may, or may not, be the same


View attachment 697228

There is nothing wrong with using a round ball as well. 45 caliber ML rifles have been killing deer with round balls for centuries.

I would recommend getting a good “T” handle range rod but you probably already have one for the in-lines.

Bob
Click to expand...
A lot easier is to buy the CO2 with the adapter for the nipple.

I have a rifle that must have something wrong with it, something blocking it, because one out of every 5 or 6 shots doesn't go off, so the CO2 saved me a few times.
 
Broc said:
A lot easier is to buy the CO2 with the adapter for the nipple.
Click to expand...
I knew that they existed but never used one.

Broc said:
I have a rifle that must have something wrong with it, something blocking it, because one out of every 5 or 6 shots doesn't go off, so the CO2 saved me a few times.
Click to expand...

Thats a strange one. Percussion? What are you using for powder?
 
1st - You gotta watch "Jeremiah Johnson," like 500 times, until you can remember all the lines ( especially the ones about the Hawken: "He was looking for a Hawken gun, .50 caliber or better. He settled for a .30, but damn, it was a genuine Hawken, and you couldn't go no better. "

2nd - get a "Silent Ball Extractor" CO@ powered ball remover - sometimes you can find dusty old ones at little gunshops.
There a 2 kinds of muzzleloader people - those who've forgotten the powdah, & those that haven't forgot it yet......

MT0515 UNIVERSAL UNLOADER KIT

New design now allows you to use just one simple adapter for discharging and unloading your flintlock, percussion sidehammer, and break-action in line muzzleloaders. Works on flint, #11 or musket nipples, and 290 shotgun primer muzzleloaders. Also use for safety to clear the barrel and breech...
www.dixiegunworks.com

When using to unload after hunting, be sure to thump the ramrod down the barrel after using it (or use a scraper attachment) & turn upside down to get all the powder out of the corners


3 - in flintlocks you need to use real blackpowder - the flashpan spark isn't hot enough for reliable ignition


4 - Lyman has manuals to download You are being redirected...


Happy Hunting
 
Last edited:
You can use #10 caps, but they’re to be a tight fit. See about buying Magspark adapter. It enables you to use 209 primers with a trad cap lock. Otherwise, you will have to use a small kicker charge of real blackpowder under your charge of Blackpowder substitute. Substitutes don’t ignite as readily.
 
sig shooter said:
You can use #10 caps, but they’re to be a tight fit. See about buying Magspark adapter. It enables you to use 209 primers with a trad cap lock. Otherwise, you will have to use a small kicker charge of real blackpowder under your charge of Blackpowder substitute. Substitutes don’t ignite as readily.
Click to expand...

Or just use real black powder and you won’t have any ignition problems.
 
sig shooter said:
Very true, but holy black is hard to obtain and store in MA. The Magspark gives your trad muzzleloader more versatility.
Click to expand...

The Goex plant was bought by Estes last year and is supposed to resume production this year so that should help ease the shortages.

The best thing to do is call around and ask. Many/most stores store it in a fireproof cabinet out back.

Bob
 
sig shooter said:
Very true, but holy black is hard to obtain and store in MA. The Magspark gives your trad muzzleloader more versatility.
Click to expand...
Yes, but once you have it, it lasts a long time.

Hunter's Rendezvous, KTP and Maine Powderhouse sell it.

As far as storage ... closet.

A few NES members also buy it in bulk from Track of the Wolf, BACO or some other place.

I would be IN for a group buy.
 
SJFOG said:
Hi All,

I just acquired a used Lyman 45 Cal Hawken Type Caplock (Percussion) Traditional Muzzleloader. While I have two "modern" Inline TC Muzzleloaders for many years, which I have successfully used on deer, I am a total newcomer on Traditional version and I would like some technical advice if someone has the knowledge to impart.

Firstly as regards ignition, the Rifle has a No.11 Nipple, but I have visited all the local retail outlets (Cabelas, KTP, Shooters Outpost) etc. and no store has No. 11 Caps, only No. 10 Caps. Is it possible to use No.10 caps on a No. 11 Nipple (i.e. will the cap fit) and is this safe to do so (within reason)

Secondly, years ago I switched over to using Blackhorn 209 Powder as my propellent of choice. The Scoped TC Omega with 84 Grains by Volume with a 265 Grain Sabot (Barnes) returns ~1933 FPS with ~20 FPS Standard Deviation and 2" Group (3 shot at 150 Yards) or 1.33 MOA. Does anyone have experience using Blackhorn 209 Propellent in a Traditional Muzzleloader (including with a flintlock using the Blackhorn 209 as the Main charge).

Thanks for taking the time to read.

Best, Seamus
Click to expand...
10 and 11s have always been in short supply. As far back as I can remember and always a bit “expensive”. Way back when we where playing with caps we always bought as many tins as we could get each summer trip anywhere near KTP
2nd best thing is get in with a local club that has a larger BP following and get in on the group buys.
 
You can switch the nipple for one that uses #4 musket caps. They're much easier to handle with frozen fingers but everyone seems to be sold out. The Thompson Center hawken is rifled one turn on 48". It will shoot either a ball or short bullet. I used a Lyman 300 grain bullet in mine but they probably don't make the mold anymore.
 
sig shooter said:
You can use #10 caps, but they’re to be a tight fit. See about buying Magspark adapter. It enables you to use 209 primers with a trad cap lock. Otherwise, you will have to use a small kicker charge of real blackpowder under your charge of Blackpowder substitute. Substitutes don’t ignite as readily.
Click to expand...
Just remember that you will need an FID or LTC to possess the 209 primer (not required for possession of the BP caps.

DPRM, gotta love it!
 

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