To FFL or not to FFL?

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Then the question becomes, what level of FFL is required for a MA dealer's license?

An "accessories" store would be kind of cool. Just thinking out loud here.
 
Do you think ATF would grant an FFL without a MA dealers license? I'm guessing they wouldn't, but don't have anything solid to back that up.

They used to do this for gunsmiths, not sure if that is the case any more or not.

-Mike
 
Then the question becomes, what level of FFL is required for a MA dealer's license?

An "accessories" store would be kind of cool. Just thinking out loud here.

Yes, but would it be profitable enough? There are enough tables at local gun shows just stocked with all kinds of acessories and no firearms, compound this with the fact that there are so many internet vendors. About the only accessories I purchase locally besides ammunition and the occasional firearm are cleaning supplies and I'm guessing that there are a lot of people like me in that regard. In the last 6 mos I have purchased a laser sight for my J frame and a pair of electronic ear muffs. I didn't even look locally, went directly to the internet. Why go into a shop and only be told that they can order it for you? I can order things myself. I hate to see the little retailer suffer, but in the end business is business and money is money.

I don't disagree with your premise, but could you keep the right stock and make it profitable?
 
Then the question becomes, what level of FFL is required for a MA dealer's license?

An "accessories" store would be kind of cool. Just thinking out loud here.

Anything but a C&R (FFL03)?
But what kjind of accessories are you selling that would need you to be an FFL? You can't be an FFL just to be an FFL, If I'm correct the ATF requires you to be in some sort of business intending to make profits and not just hooking your friends up with guns at cost.

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I meant it the other way around. Retail, with no gun sales.

You need the same FFL(01) to sell firearms, ammo and to be a gunsmith.
 
Yes, but would it be profitable enough? There are enough tables at local gun shows just stocked with all kinds of acessories and no firearms, compound this with the fact that there are so many internet vendors. About the only accessories I purchase locally besides ammunition and the occasional firearm are cleaning supplies and I'm guessing that there are a lot of people like me in that regard. In the last 6 mos I have purchased a laser sight for my J frame and a pair of electronic ear muffs. I didn't even look locally, went directly to the internet. Why go into a shop and only be told that they can order it for you? I can order things myself. I hate to see the little retailer suffer, but in the end business is business and money is money.

I don't disagree with your premise, but could you keep the right stock and make it profitable?

Not EVERYONE shops online. Think of MA, and how many "Fudds" there are that don't even own a computer.


Anything but a C&R (FFL03)?
But what kind of accessories are you selling that would need you to be an FFL? You can't be an FFL just to be an FFL, If I'm correct the ATF requires you to be in some sort of business intending to make profits and not just hooking your friends up with guns at cost.

You need the same FFL(01) to sell firearms, ammo and to be a gunsmith.

Really?
 
I meant it the other way around. Retail, with no gun sales.

If you have an 01 or an 07 not selling guns (at some point or another) if you're operating a shop, is kind of stupid.

-Mike

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Yes, really, it's called profit motive. You must have profit motive to maintain an 01 or 07 FFL.

-Mike
 
If you have an 01 or an 07 not selling guns (at some point or another) if you're operating a shop, is kind of stupid.

Yes, really, it's called profit motive. You must have profit motive to maintain an 01 or 07 FFL.

How do they define "profit motive"? Anyhow, the point was to see if one could do those other things without an FFL. Let's leave it at that, since this is about Mike and TiteGroup.

Sorry for the slight derailing of the thread.
 
Ivd wanted to get my FFl 07 to manufacture parts / kits to sell to shops . Didn't realize I didn't have to deal with mass since it wouldn't be retail like a 01 would. Interesting hmmmm.
Still need to get the town to rezone my shop errr.
 
How do they define "profit motive"? Anyhow, the point was to see if one could do those other things without an FFL. Let's leave it at that, since this is about Mike and TiteGroup.
.

Profit Motive = operating a business in firearms with the intent to make money doing it.

-Mike
 
Ivd wanted to get my FFl 07 to manufacture parts / kits to sell to shops . Didn't realize I didn't have to deal with mass since it wouldn't be retail like a 01 would. Interesting hmmmm.
Still need to get the town to rezone my shop errr.
"doing business" in MA (selling things in MA) means a MA license. You'd be limited to out-of-state business without it. 07 zoning can be tricky these days since MA has tried to ban the use of one's hands for labor by non-illegals. [laugh]
 
Could someone open a shop that only sold frames and parts, but not guns? If so, would a FFL license be required? What about just parts and no frames, but just things like barrels, sights, grips, magazines, and all other non-serialized parts? What about ammunition?

the point was to see if one could do those other things without an FFL. Let's leave it at that, since this is about Mike and TiteGroup.

Sorry for the slight derailing of the thread.

The answer to the question you are not asking [wink] is, no you couldn't. Here is why. The fed does consider a frame a firearm. So yes a FFL would be needed. Without one you couldn't receive the frames from manufacturers or wholesalers in the first place. The only reason that what I posted earlier works is, because MA doesn't a frame to be firearm. So a frame is exempt from the MA lists. The lists limit the "firearms" a dealer can "sell". Not what a person can own, possess, or transfer FTF. So, once legally received and owned by a FFL in the state, it can then be sold as a part and be exempt to the MA regs.

It wouldn't be cost effective to try to do it the other way anyhow. If a dealer buys a complete gun at their price from the manufacturer. Then splits it up and sells it they can still do so at a competitive price for their market. Assuming, for the moment, that you could do what you are asking, you would be buying a frame, then buying all the parts (which combined will be more than a dealer would get the complete gun for) and then trying to sell them with very little, if any, room to make some profit without being a way overpriced option.
 
There were actually (*maybe) two questions in there. One was if one can sell everything BUT the serialized parts, ie: the frame, without a license. This would allow one to run a "sporting goods shop" without the BS and rigamarole involved with all the licenses. The second was about doing the same, only with ammunition. That was answered by the need for some level of an FFL license. So, if one has to go through the hoops for that, might as well do the whole process and sell the good stuff also. What is involved in an FFL anyhow? Is it just apply, pay, and wait?
 
There were actually (*maybe) two questions in there. One was if one can sell everything BUT the serialized parts, ie: the frame, without a license. This would allow one to run a "sporting goods shop" without the BS and rigamarole involved with all the licenses. The second was about doing the same, only with ammunition. That was answered by the need for some level of an FFL license. So, if one has to go through the hoops for that, might as well do the whole process and sell the good stuff also. What is involved in an FFL anyhow? Is it just apply, pay, and wait?
FFL:
- Correctly zoned location with separate entrance
- Set fixed minimum office hour(s) and make sure you can support those as they are permitted to show up unannounced during these times to check your books.
- File paperwork (fingerprints, photo, forms, fee) with ATF - wait
- Interview with ATF

MA state license(s) - dealer, ammo, gunsmith - three distinct licenses:
- Need FFL (the number, specifically) to apply
- Form similar to LTC, application trough PD of town of correctly zoned location - local PD may or may not approve (check with them before starting this process).
- Wait
- Post various things in your correctly zoned location required by MA and Federal law
- Compliance inspection (annual) from local PD.

I strongly suggest speaking with the PD and town in which you plan on doing this before-hand. Some will just say "no" and there is very little you can do about it.

FWIW, any change in ownership or control of the FFL requires re-application, so it is a good time to put some thought into your "corporate structure". The licenses are not transferable.
 
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I don't disagree with your premise, but could you keep the right stock and make it profitable?

There are a lot more benefits to being a small business owner than just straight profit. Unfortunately, with the zoning restrictions MA puts on any firearms related businesses, it makes it a lot harder.

Profit motive is pretty easy to show, as general rule of thumb is most businesses will not show a profit for at least three years. Most accountants suggest a profit for at least two out of five years, but the IRS doesn't hold that as a requirement.

I've seen people show a loss for ten years, go through an audit and have no issues. Every circumstance is different.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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I do not believe ATF would issue an FFL based on the desire alone to sell "accessories" without being in some sort of "gun" business..

My logic, and FFL is NOT required to buy many accessories, however, many companies will only deal with you IF you have an FFL. As such, the ATF is in charge of handling Firearms licenses and they want you to be in the "business" of selling firearms. They don';t care if you want to sell accessories, that's not their issue



Of course, I could be wrong, jm2c
 
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Of course, even Walmart sells sights, slings, cleaning supplies, cases, etc. The Tractor Supply place sells cases, safes, and other accessories, so that kind of negates post 21, does it not?
 
Of course, even Walmart sells sights, slings, cleaning supplies, cases, etc. The Tractor Supply place sells cases, safes, and other accessories, so that kind of negates post 21, does it not?

Walmart sells ammo and guns as well, those locations hold an FFL. The ones that don't sell either of these likely are not an FFL as one is not needed to sell cleaning gear. You can have a shop that sells solely accessories, hell even 80% lowers but you can't dabble in ammo, or guns (obviously). (not sure about mags?)

If you are not engaging in the act of selling firearms or ammo (or being a gunsmith) you have no need for an FFL01.
FFL = Federal FIREARMS License.
Why would you need/want one if you aren't going to sell regulated items? Seems like a waste of money on fees and an extended waiting period (at the state level) for licenses.
 
Walmart sells ammo and guns as well, those locations hold an FFL. The ones that don't sell either of these likely are not an FFL as one is not needed to sell cleaning gear. You can have a shop that sells solely accessories, hell even 80% lowers but you can't dabble in ammo, or guns (obviously). (not sure about mags?)

If you are not engaging in the act of selling firearms or ammo (or being a gunsmith) you have no need for an FFL01.
FFL = Federal FIREARMS License.
Why would you need/want one if you aren't going to sell regulated items? Seems like a waste of money on fees and an extended waiting period (at the state level) for licenses.

That was the point of the question. Let's say one has some other sort of shop, like a hardware store for example. Could one have a section of the store to sell Hoppes, slings, sights, cases, safes, barrels, grips, triggers, FSB's, LPK's, magazines, free float tubes, hammers, BCG's, etc. without needing to expend the extra money and effort for the FFL license?

Thanks.
 
There are enough tables at local gun shows just stocked with all kinds of acessories and no firearms, compound this with the fact that there are so many internet vendors.
Your only hope selling accessories is to find products where either (a) the distribution channels are highly restricted, but you can get "in" or (b) You have a secret source your prospective customers don't.

The only way to get into restricted distribution channels is quantity, or convincing a "nobody discounts out products - ever" vendor like Oakley or SureFire to treat you as a dealer ... and then, you have to find customers willing to pay you full retail rather than pay an established vendor the same price.
 
That was the point of the question. Let's say one has some other sort of shop, like a hardware store for example. Could one have a section of the store to sell Hoppes, slings, sights, cases, safes, barrels, grips, triggers, FSB's, LPK's, magazines, free float tubes, hammers, BCG's, etc. without needing to expend the extra money and effort for the FFL license?

Thanks.

Yes you can have a hardware store and sell everything you listed, the only thing I'm not sure on is mags (since this is MA). But yes a hardware store can sell accessories, anyone can really. If the part is not regulated you're fine.
 
If you are not engaging in the act of selling firearms or ammo (or being a gunsmith) you have no need for an FFL01.
FFL = Federal FIREARMS License.
Why would you need/want one if you aren't going to sell regulated items? Seems like a waste of money on fees and an extended waiting period (at the state level) for licenses.

One reason is consultant to the firearms industry, gunwriter, or photographer specializing in guns. Until a few years ago, such individuals could legally receive firearms in interstate shipment provided they were doing bona-fide work for a manufacturer, even if they were volunteer or compensated on a 1099.

The ATF changed this a year or three ago, and now this may only be done for "regular employees" defined as individuals who are compensated on a W2 basis. Consultants and gunwriters now require an FFL if they are freelancers or independents not in the employ of the manufacturer.

There are other benefits to holding an FFL, most notably dealing with distributors (though many require proof you have a sales tax resale cert and a storefront), and receiving guns from Gunbroker.com sales directly. My guess is most people who say "you have no need for an FFL" are individuals who themselves hold an FFL.

Yes you can have a hardware store and sell everything you listed, the only thing I'm not sure on is mags (since this is MA).

High cap mags could be an interesting situation where a MA dealer's license is required but an FFL is not. Sort of an inverse to the "why would you need an FFL if you are not going to have a MA dealer's license" question.
 
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One reason is consultant to the firearms industry, gunwriter, or photographer specializing in guns. Until a few years ago, such individuals could legally receive firearms in interstate shipment provided they were doing bona-fide work for a manufacturer, even if they were volunteer or compensated on a 1099.

The ATF changed this a year or three ago, and now this may only be done for "regular employees" defined as individuals who are compensated on a W2 basis. Consultants and gunwriters now require an FFL if they are freelancers or independents not in the employ of the manufacturer. Interesting I did not know any of this or the above.

There are other benefits to holding an FFL, most notably dealing with distributors (though many require proof you have a sales tax resale cert and a storefront), and receiving guns from Gunbroker.com sales directly. My guess is most people who say "you have no need for an FFL" are individuals who themselves hold an FFL. I don't have an FFL! I wish I did [sad2] But receivineg guyns from Gunbroker as a perk to an FFL? Isn't this more of a personal reason to having an FFL? I mean you can't have an FFL just to hook yourself up with sweet shit........or can you? ::dum dum duuuuuuuum(suspense music)::



High cap mags could be an interesting situation where a MA dealer's license is required but an FFL is not. Sort of an inverse to the "why would you need an FFL if you are not going to have a MA dealer's license" question.Mags confuse me, why? because I can buy mags on ebay but can't buy anything like ammo of lowers or frames or receivers of any kind on eBay, so they obviously restrict sales in that aspect. BUT they only sell mags of 10 rounds or LESS. Can't buy "standard capacity mags of any sort on there. Unless it's a Shield and standard capacity is 7/8.

.
 
I mean you can't have an FFL just to hook yourself up with sweet shit........or can you? ::dum dum duuuuuuuum(suspense music)::
The ATF will not issue an FFL for such a purpose. I expect that anyone falling into one of the niches that did not involve actual retailing would have to prove it in order for their application to be approved. I could qualify, but it't not worth the hassle.

because I can buy mags on ebay but can't buy anything like ammo of lowers or frames or receivers of any kind on eBay, so they obviously restrict sales in that aspect. BUT they only sell mags of 10 rounds or LESS. Can't buy "standard capacity mags of any sort on there. Unless it's a Shield and standard capacity is 7/8.
There are no federal regulations regarding sale of > 10 round mags on Ebay. The restrictions are voluntary, unless you buy into the logic that a mail order sale to MA actually takes place within MA (the current position of the AG regarding ammo sales).
 
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