Time for a 45 Part Deux

[TY43215]

Taking the lead from GTO shooter, thought I would expand on the 45 revolvers.

First, I shoot revolvers in both USPSA and IDPA. Not real good, but I do it for fun.

USPSA, I use the 25-2s pictured here:6.5" barrel, bobbed hammer DA Only, Fiber optic and Millet sights on one, standard on the other (Still not convinced about the fiber optic) Both have .400 wide serrated triggers and smooth light double action.

For IDPA I use the 4" Miculek 625s pictured here:

Again, bobbed hammer, one has a hammer from Apex tactical with fiber optic front from SDM other is soon to have night sights that are being made at Trijicon that will be green front and yellow rear.

DanS stated he liked wood. So do I Dan. I like the Miculek grips and have them on the 625s and on one of the 25-2s saving my pennies for a second set. I also have a set of Pauferro checkered I got from Pat Hogue several years ago.

All Hogue wood grips hit me wrong on the inside of the right thumb and I need to alter them just a little. I have discussed this with Pat and he does the same thing. He has offered to do what is needed if I send them back. They are a great company to deal with.

As far as the light smooth action alluded to by GTO shooter, several here have tried these in dry fire. Let them tell you what they think. I do all my own work.

Revolvers are a great way to go and a lot of fun. And No Dan, I don't want your 25-2. I have enough

Regards

 

[TY43215]

Now to answer GTO shooters question. I have had the PC 625, the 625 Model of 1989, and the current Miculek 625s (Not PC guns).

The Model of 1989 is a great gun. It had problems when I first got it but I straightened them out with the final work of recutting the forcing cone being done at S&W. That revo is still in use today in New Bedford by MAShooter. It has night sights and a real nice action.

The newer firing pin on the frame series work better for me as far as what I can do to lighten them up. They are a lot more forgiving as far as light action is concerned.

Just to clarify, I load all my own ammo, use Nickel brass only, and use federal primers only. That is what works for me.

Just a word about the PC 625 I had. I sold it real quick as I could not get it to shoot accurately with my loads and didn't want to play around with it. I sold it out of state so I would never see it again.

Regards,

 

[Nickle]

A couple of pics of my 1917 Colt. Made in 1918, and yes, it's a MILSURP.

 

[GTOShootr]

Thanks Gary.

I'll keep my eye out for a 5" 625. However, if I had it I wouldn't have time to shoot it anyways.

How does the 1917 use the .45 ACP? An Autorim?

 

[TY43215]

Thanks Gary.

How does the 1917 use the .45 ACP? An Autorim?

The 1917 was the original Moon Clip gun designed initially by S&W. They originally used 1/2 Moon clips of three rounds.

See History of S&W by Roy Jinks for some interesting reading.

Gary

 

[edin508]

Those are purrdy

 

[Executive]

Nice firearms. I wish you many years of accurate, safe and fun shooting with them. I don't like 'em though because of the caliber. If they were .44 or .357 or .38 or some other natural wheelgun round that woould be a different story. I'm just not comfortable with the idea of needing a third component (the moon clip) to use a firearm. To me it seems like running non-native software on your computer through emulation. Sure, it works with a little third party help, and it may work well, but it's just not the way it's supposed to be. The word that keeps coming to mind is "inelegant", and I use it from an engineering perspective, not a design perspective. No insult intended here, just my personal opinion.

Regards,
Chris

 

[TY43215]

Nice firearms. I wish you many years of accurate, safe and fun shooting with them. I don't like 'em though because of the caliber. If they were .44 or .357 or .38 or some other natural wheelgun round that woould be a different story. I'm just not comfortable with the idea of needing a third component (the moon clip) to use a firearm. To me it seems like running non-native software on your computer through emulation. Sure, it works with a little third party help, and it may work well, but it's just not the way it's supposed to be. The word that keeps coming to mind is "inelegant", and I use it from an engineering perspective, not a design perspective. No insult intended here, just my personal opinion.

Regards,
Chris

Opinion noted. Just unfortunate it is a misguided opinion The 45ACP in a revolver and the 45 Autorim in the same revolver has been proven time and time again to be reliable and easy to use.

As for your "third Component", I guess you don't use a speed loader with the calibers you mentioned??? Speed loaders are actually mechanical devices and new to the scene compared to the moon clip(early 1900s vs late 1960s). How about the Magazine in a semi auto?? bend a feed lip some time, OOPS, semi doesn't function. Bend a moon clip and you can still load six rounds loose.

They make many different types of firearms for the many different uses they have. Being familiar with them all is a good thing and broadens your horizons.

Regards,

 

[GTOShootr]

I don't like 'em though because of the caliber. If they were .44 or .357 or .38 or some other natural wheelgun round that would be a different story. I'm just not comfortable with the idea of needing a third component (the moon clip) to use a firearm.

Moonclips are no different in being a "third component" than semi auto mags or conventional speedloaders, other than being a lot simpler.

 

[ArmedMainer]

They make many different types of firearms for the many different uses they have. Being familiar with them all is a good thing and broadens your horizons.

I'd love to get a 625. The PC ones are probably out of my price range but I see FS has a good price on the regular ones. Not sure which one but I'll be buying another .45 before summer comes.

 

[GTOShootr]

Do you know how much they were at FS?

RGS,
What is your take on the 625 vs the PC version? What is the difference between the 625 and the 625 JM?

I had the 625 JM and the PC 625 confused.

 

[ArmedMainer]

Do you know how much they were at FS?

RGS,
What is your take on the 625 vs the PC version? What is the difference between the 625 and the 625 JM?

I had the 625 JM and the PC 625 confused.

Regular one is $625.

 

[MAShooter]

The 625 that RGS mentions being in New Bedford is planned to make an appearance at this Sunday's AFS USPSA match (unless of course I don't get the time between now and then to make up some ammo).

I typically shoot Glocks for both USPSA (Limited and Production) and IDPA (SSP). I have also shot a 1911 for IDPA/CDP and USPSA L-10. I shoot both moon-clip (S&W 625) and speed-loader (S&W 686) based revolvers. They are ALL fun to shoot.

BTW: RGS does great trigger work

My take on shooting a revolver is this:
If you can shoot a revolver well (in double action mode - no manual cocking to single action), you can shoot a semi-auto well... The thought being you can't get away with sloppy trigger control in a DA revolver. If you have good trigger control with a revolver - you can apply that to a semi-auto. Going the other way (auto to revo) isn't always that easy if you don't have good trigger control.

 

[TY43215]

Do you know how much they were at FS?

RGS,
What is your take on the 625 vs the PC version? What is the difference between the 625 and the 625 JM?

I had the 625 JM and the PC 625 confused.

The run down on the three is this:

625 has smooth face trigger, pinned front sight, rubber grips and is OK for what it is. You will find it will need some work to be a game gun. NOTE: I have re-worked 2 that your friend did the action on.

625Miculek-narrow serrated trigger (I prefer serrated), Classic front sight (it is interchangeable with others by the owner), hammer that is special for the gun (who cares I cut them off any way), Miculek wood grips (Once you have them mastered, they are worth the extra) slight chamfer on the cylinder.

625 Miculek PC- same as the Miculek model but with the addition of a forged tear drop PC Hammer (I would cut that too), the older ones had a shorter cylinder that is supposed to be more accurate. I don't know if this is still true but I had problems with mine and sold it. Supposedly it has a "PC Action" Still needs work for the discriminating shooter as they still have to meet the trigger pull requirement for MA and MD.

 

[TY43215]

The 625 that RGS mentions being in New Bedford is planned to make an appearance at this Sunday's AFS USPSA match (unless of course I don't get the time between now and then to make up some ammo).

For a warm up, head to S&W for the ICORE match Saturday. Tell Steph I said it was OK

Enjoy Sunday, sorry I won't be there. see you in a couple weeks.

 

[Executive]

Moonclips are no different in being a "third component" than semi auto mags or conventional speedloaders, other than being a lot simpler.

Semi-autos are designed from scratch to use a magazine. Revolvers were originally designed to use a rimmed (greater OD than actual case) casing. The moon clip which allows use of a rimless case simply strikes me as an afterthought and again, an inelegant solution to an unnecessary problem. As for using a speedloader, it certainly makes for a more efficient reloading, but is far from necessary when using a revolver.


Regards,
Chris

 

[TY43215]

Semi-autos are designed from scratch to use a magazine. Revolvers were originally designed to use a rimmed (greater OD than actual case) casing. The moon clip which allows use of a rimless case simply strikes me as an afterthought and again, an inelegant solution to an unnecessary problem. As for using a speedloader, it certainly makes for a more efficient reloading, but is far from necessary when using a revolver.


Regards,
Chris

First, the design you call semi auto, was originally a single shot blow back. The magazine was added to increase capacity along with an autoloading function.

The cartridges you mention were made for revolvers not the other way around. The revolvers existed as cap and ball and eventually progressed to cartridge type both rim fire and centerfire, rimmed and rimless.

The Model 1917 (As pictured earlier in this discussion) was designed to fire the 45ACP round from the start for use in WWI It was never intended to use a rim type cartridge.Initially the clips were half moon.

The 1917 evolved into the 1950, then the 1955, then the 25 and eventually into the 625 we see today. It was a natural progression that has been happening for 97 years all on a revolver that was designed from the start to fire the 45ACP cartridge.

Regards,

 

[Executive]

The .45 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol) pistol cartridge was designed by firearms designer John Browning. Based upon his earlier .380 ACP pistol cartridge, the .45 ACP was introduced along with Colt M1911 pistol adopted by the US Army in 1911. The round was later used in several submachine guns.

.45 ACP roundsThe US Cavalry began looking in the early 1900s for a replacement for their revolver, which was a .45 Colt Single Action Army. The Cavalry had fielded some double action revolvers in .38 Long Colt, and they determined that the .38 caliber round was significantly less effective against determined opponents, such as the Moro warriors they were fighting at the time, than the .45 Colt. Because of this, the Cavalry decided that a minimum of .45 caliber was required in the replacement handgun. It had also been determined that a .44-caliber bullet was the smallest diameter suitable for putting a wounded horse out of its misery. Colt had been working with Browning on a .41 caliber cartridge in 1904, and in 1905 when the Cavalry asked for a .45 caliber equivalent, Colt modified the pistol design to fire a .45 caliber version of the prototype .41 caliber round. The original round that passed the testing fired a 200 grain (13 g) bullet at 900 ft/s (275 m/s), but was later changed to a 230 grain (15 g) bullet at about 850 ft/s (260 m/s). The resulting .45 caliber cartridge, named the .45 ACP, is similar in performance to the .45 S&W cartridge, and only slightly less powerful (but significantly shorter) than the .45 Colt cartridges the Cavalry was using. Modern propellants have boosted the .45 ACP well beyond the power and velocity of the original .45 Colt, though modern .45 Colt loads are also far beyond the original loadings.

My research indicates that the first moon clips were used as primitive speedloaders to expedite the loading of various revolvers. One early use of moon clips with a round specifically designed for a semi-automatic pistol is in the Model of 1917. The M1917 was produced due to production problems and contractors inability to keep up with the demand for M1911 pistols. The desire for a common round with the issued .45 ACP M1911 required the use of the moon clip for this application. Had the 1917 been designed "from the ground up" without the requirement for common chambering, a rimmed cartridge would have almost certainly been specified.

I'm learning a lot here as we debate this. I'm really enjoying this discussion.

Regards,
Chris

 

[TY43215]

The .45 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol)
My research indicates that the first moon clips were used as primitive speedloaders to expedite the loading of various revolvers. One early use of moon clips with a round specifically designed for a semi-automatic pistol is in the Model of 1917. The M1917 was produced due to production problems and contractors inability to keep up with the demand for M1911 pistols. The desire for a common round with the issued .45 ACP M1911 required the use of the moon clip for this application. Had the 1917 been designed "from the ground up" without the requirement for common chambering, a rimmed cartridge would have almost certainly been specified.

I'm learning a lot here as we debate this. I'm really enjoying this discussion.

Regards,
Chris

Your research needs to indicate a source. The source is mistaken in relation to the original design of the moon clip. In the History of Smith and Wesson by Roy Jinks, noted authority, author and historian on S&W products, it will tell you the original clip was invented by Joseph Wesson as a half clip in order to use the 45ACP round. (I can post a picture later of a 1/2 clip). Your "research" is probably as related to the "Full Moon clip" which had it's birth in competition.

The 1917 was designed out of need for additional firearms for the impending US involvement in the first World War. It was then used in the 1917.

My research on this topic is not new. It has evolved over thirty years of using, working on, and teaching others about hand guns. It is a common debate but now we seem to be going in circles. I think with further research, you will find the revolver in any caliber to be an efficient fighting, target, or competition gun in the hands of a trained shooter. The need to be able to pick up any firearm and be proficient is there. Although I prefer revolvers, I use other types of firearms too.

You originally stated in your initial thread you were looking for a "45" You have now been given several options. It is your decision to make but be fair with yourself and be open to new things and ideas.

If you ever want to try a 45ACP revolver and a 1911 together, let me know. Hell, I will even bring the ammo