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Thumbhole stock on AR15 to gain flashhider

weerwolv

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Hi all,

Does switching out the pistol grip to this Bell and Carlson stock allow me to add a permanent flashhider to an AR15 in MA?

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=217096

What does MA think about thumb-hole stocks? I can't seem to find anywhere in the laws that they are considered pistol grips.

I'm hoping switching to this, which looks like it might work, would allow me to add a permanent flashhider.

Any thoughts?
 
No. A thumbhole stock still has a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously from the bottom of the action. The only thunbholes that get around this are the P90 and FS2000 since the grip is integrated into the body of the firearm.
 
No. A thumbhole stock still has a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously from the bottom of the action. The only thunbholes that get around this are the P90 and FS2000 since the grip is integrated into the body of the firearm.

I thought the thumbhole stock was how the entire AK industry got around the pistol grip issue during the national AWB. Hence the MAK-90 with a thumbhole stock.
 
I thought the thumbhole stock was how the entire AK industry got around the pistol grip issue during the national AWB.

ATF considers such thumbhole stocks a combination buttstock and pistol grip. See this letter, which is in regard to 922(r), not the expired AWB, but the determination of a thumbhole stock is the same nonetheless. (See answer to question 2, near the end). Like most things of this nature, I have a suspicion that MA would follow ATF's lead.

ATF said:
U.S. Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives

NOV 1, 2005

903050:ELG
3311/2005-663

Dear XXXXX:

This refers to your letter, received by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), Firearms Technology Branch (FTB), September16, 2005, pertaining to a Saiga AK-type semiautomatic rifle. Specifically, you requested a clarification regarding modifications to Saiga rifles. Your letter was forwarded to FTB’s new location in Martinsburg, WV, for reply.

As you may be aware, the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), 18 U.S.C. § 922(r), prohibits assembly of certain semiautomatic rifles and shotguns from imported parts. The implementing regulations contained in 27 CFR § 478.39 (formerly 1 78.39) include the stipulation that “no person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of certain imported parts, if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under 18 U.S.C. § 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.”

These parts are tabulated below:

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings.
(2) Barrels.
(3) Barrel extensions.
(4) Mounting blocks (trunnions).
(5) Muzzle attachments.
(6) Bolts.
(7) Bolt carriers.
(8) Operating rods.
(9) Gas pistons.
(10) Trigger housings.
(11) Triggers.
(12) Hammers.
(13) Sears.
(14) Disconnectors.
(15) Buttstocks.
(16) Pistol grips.
(17) Forearms, handguards.
(18) Magazine bodies.
(19) Followers.
(20) Floor plates.

Because certain AK-type semiautomatic rifles are currently prohibited from importation, the assembly of such rifles using more than 10 of the above imported parts is prohibited under § 922(r). However, assembly of AK-type semiautomatic rifles using 10 or fewer of these imported parts is not prohibited under this section.

With respect to the questions in your letter, we will answer them in the order they were posed, as follows:

Question 1: Would modifying a Saiga rifle by replacing the existing buttstock with a ‘thumbhole style” stock result in a rifle prohibited from importation under Title 18 USC, Section 925(d)?

Answer: Yes. if your Saiga rifle is assembled using more than 10 of the imported parts in the above-cited 922(r).

Question 2: With reference to the parts listed in Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Part 478 (formerly Part 178), section 478.39(c): Is thumbhole style stock counted as a buttstock, as a “pistol grip”, or both?

Answer: Both: The “thumbhole stock” about which you inquire is considered a combination of a pistol grip and a buttstock, therefore counting as two parts with reference to the parts listed in 27 CFR § 478.39(c) (formerly 178.39(c)).

Please note that the above answers are applicable to .223, 7.62x39mm, and .308 calibers.

We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your questions.

Sincerely yours,

Sterling Nixon
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch
 
I thought the thumbhole stock was how the entire AK industry got around the pistol grip issue during the national AWB. Hence the MAK-90 with a thumbhole stock.

The thumbhole stock thing was a importation thing, not an AWB thing, IIRC.

After the ban, the thumbhole stock constituted the one evil feature, until people figured out how to add domestic-made parts to get around 922r.
 
Vellnueve I think has it right here.

The AWB says "conspicuously below reciever" in reference to the pistol grip - hence the thumbholes and dragonovs became popular.

The 922r definition of these is just that - 922r definition.
 
Those aren't thumbhole stocks. Those are straight-up pistol grips. Have you actually looked at the FS2000 and PS90? There is no grip protruding anywhere, which is why they are not pistol grips.
 
Vellnueve I think has it right here.

The AWB says "conspicuously below reciever" in reference to the pistol grip - hence the thumbholes and dragonovs became popular.

The 922r definition of these is just that - 922r definition.

Vellnueve is not in agreement with you, re-read his posts again.
 

Now.. On a serious note, what if you drilled a hole in that to put your thumb through?

I have an H&R shotgun with, what I consider to be the most comfortable stock I have ever felt. It's clearly a thumbhole and the stock and grip are inseperable, but there is also a reasonable "pistol grip". But, frankly little more than a standard shotgun.
 
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