Thoughts while shaving, hhhmmm?

The Goose

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Yesterday I received my copy of American Handgunner magazine and a letter to the editor caught my eye. A fellow in Alabama (where open carry is legal) received a letter from his bank requesting that he not carry while in the bank. He did a little research, found a bank that supported his right to open carry and transferred his funds to that bank. My first reaction was “good job” and after careful thought my second reaction was “good job”! However, it raised some questions for me.

I personally would probably never open carry even if it were allowed in MA. Living here the idea is quite foreign to me and more importantly I would prefer to be discreet and keep the element of surprise on my side. Still, as a business owner how would I react if someone walked into my offices openly carrying a gun? I mean if it were legal. I support the right to carry, but can I honestly say that I would not be concerned? I just do not know. Is it unreasonable for the president of a bank to be concerned about someone openly carrying a gun?

I have been to areas where open carry is allowed and it is not like everyone is openly carrying a gun. It is still a rare sight. Perhaps I am just so indoctrinated that my judgement is skewed. Concealed carry is not an issue for me at all. I firmly believe that concealed carry should be the right of every elegible US citizen and that it should be allowed everywhere and should extend beyond state lines, but I have some reservations around open carry. So forgetting about concealed carry are there places or situations where you would restrict open carry? What do you folks think?
 
Funny how people will worry about someone open carrying but if the guy is wearing a blue shirt and pants, or maybe a brown tweed sport coat, it's ok.

nope, if someone wants to carry open, let them, anywhere. I wouldn't do it regularly but it would be nice to know that I can.

Wait a minute, in Mass. I CAN, sorta, maybe, probably not.
 
Late last week, a Bank of America branch was robbed in Portland (though I believe the robber was unarmed). That got me to thinking, I have never seen a sign on a bank's front door saying they prohibit CCW-holders from carrying concealed in the premises. Irrespective of the legality of such a sign, I was surprised that I've never seen such a sign at a bank?

Of course, that same day, I had to go to the Social Security office to get a replacement card, and being a federal building there is a giant "No firearms" sign on the front door.
 
Technically, I believe open carry is not specifically forbidden in Massachusetts but it's the collective opinion of every CLEO that no one should carry openly. When I do carry I make sure to have an extra long shirt (Which is a problem for someone as tall as me.) to cover my holster. I would not be in favor of restricting open carry further then the few places where concealed carry is restricted.
 
Carry is carry is carry. I wouldn't mind it because it might mean I would know who is armed :-) It's also a good method of raising awareness of firearms ownership and carry and allows the public to stay/become accustomed to it. The reverse also occurs.
 
What an excellent thought question!

In a perfect world, the wearing of arms would be perceived as a harmless exercise in the Second Amendment. Someone who is inclined to break the law is not going to advertise that they are armed; someone who is not inclined to break the law is nothing to worry about.

We don't live in a perfect world, though.

I agree with you, Goose - I prefer concealed carry even if open carry is 100% legal, ramification-free, and accepted. I like the element of surprise. (Side note: That's one unexpected benefit of the attitude regarding firearms in the volksrepublik of MA - the criminals will EXPECT us to be unarmed sheep...)

I have carried openly while camping in NH. It's an odd feeling, but liberating. But I wouldn't want to go to Wal-Mart with a 6" barreled .357 Magnum strapped to my hip... [wink]

Yesterday I received my copy of American Handgunner magazine and a letter to the editor caught my eye. A fellow in Alabama (where open carry is legal) received a letter from his bank requesting that he not carry while in the bank. He did a little research, found a bank that supported his right to open carry and transferred his funds to that bank. My first reaction was “good job” and after careful thought my second reaction was “good job”! However, it raised some questions for me.

I personally would probably never open carry even if it were allowed in MA. Living here the idea is quite foreign to me and more importantly I would prefer to be discreet and keep the element of surprise on my side. Still, as a business owner how would I react if someone walked into my offices openly carrying a gun? I mean if it were legal. I support the right to carry, but can I honestly say that I would not be concerned? I just do not know. Is it unreasonable for the president of a bank to be concerned about someone openly carrying a gun?

I have been to areas where open carry is allowed and it is not like everyone is openly carrying a gun. It is still a rare sight. Perhaps I am just so indoctrinated that my judgement is skewed. Concealed carry is not an issue for me at all. I firmly believe that concealed carry should be the right of every elegible US citizen and that it should be allowed everywhere and should extend beyond state lines, but I have some reservations around open carry. So forgetting about concealed carry are there places or situations where you would restrict open carry? What do you folks think?
 
Still, as a business owner how would I react if someone walked into my offices openly carrying a gun? I mean if it were legal. I support the right to carry, but can I honestly say that I would not be concerned? I just do not know. Is it unreasonable for the president of a bank to be concerned about someone openly carrying a gun?

So, you're thinking that the guy carrying openly in an $80 Kydex OWB holster is 1) a crook who's too stupid to figure out how to conceal his weapon; or 2) a law-abiding citizen, going about his business.

As far as the sign on the door of a bank prohibiting carry there, I guess the thought is it would prevent robberies because the bad guy would say, "Whoa! I was going to go in and rob this one, but the sign says I can't take my gun inside! Darn! I guess I'll go get an honest job, instead. Darn signs!"

Tactics discussions aside, the openly carried (probably holstered) gun I see is not the one that worries me. The one jammed into the waistband of a pair of baggy shorts, concealed by a hoodie is the one that I'd worry about.
 
So, you're thinking that the guy carrying openly in an $80 Kydex OWB holster is 1) a crook who's too stupid to figure out how to conceal his weapon; or 2) a law-abiding citizen, going about his business.

As far as the sign on the door of a bank prohibiting carry there, I guess the thought is it would prevent robberies because the bad guy would say, "Whoa! I was going to go in and rob this one, but the sign says I can't take my gun inside! Darn! I guess I'll go get an honest job, instead. Darn signs!"

Tactics discussions aside, the openly carried (probably holstered) gun I see is not the one that worries me. The one jammed into the waistband of a pair of baggy shorts, concealed by a hoodie is the one that I'd worry about.

Some great points. As I said the idea of open carry seems so foriegn to me that I just can't get my mind wrapped around it.
 
I have been to areas where open carry is allowed and it is not like everyone is openly carrying a gun. It is still a rare sight. Perhaps I am just so indoctrinated that my judgement is skewed. Concealed carry is not an issue for me at all. I firmly believe that concealed carry should be the right of every elegible US citizen and that it should be allowed everywhere and should extend beyond state lines, but I have some reservations around open carry. So forgetting about concealed carry are there places or situations where you would restrict open carry? What do you folks think?

I think open carry needs to be 110% legal, period, end. I probably would never do it much myself, but it protects against the government from pulling thuggery with regards to accidental compromise of concealment and the like. (If it's legal it also guards against BS "brandishing" charges, in many cases.).

Of course, even if it is 110% legal, theres still nothing stopping a business
owner from not allowing it on his premises. That's his business.. it's no
different than telling someone to leave when they brought a dog in the
store despite a huge "NO PETS" sign on the door. That is one of the
many reasons concealed carry is a better idea... It ends up being
nobodys business but your own.

-Mike
 
I can't remember for sure but isn't it in the gun laws as to someplaces you can carry into and some you can't ??? Like the Post office, Fed Building, Court.

My question allways was OK I can't carry into this building and I'm not suposed to leave it in my vehicle unattended where do I put it ???
 
My question allways was OK I can't carry into this building and I'm not suposed to leave it in my vehicle unattended where do I put it ???

By the letter of the law you CAN leave a handgun in your vehicle, as long
as it is unloaded and in a secure container or locked trunk. (or obviously,
both). I prefer a case which is attached to something in the trunk so it
can't grow legs as easily even if a theif breaks into the trunk.

The whole contortion is a pain in the rear though, and I just avoid it if I know
I'm going somewhere "prohibited".

Also, FWIW, the post office thing is frequently up in the air. For every
lawyer you ask about PO carry theres a different opinion, or so it
seems. In some cases POs are shared by federal buildings, so I'm not
sure if that affects the law, either. (If theyre on the same premises, like
it is in Fitchburg, the post office is "in" the federal building.... )

-Mike
 
With the exception of school grounds if there isn't a metal detector I don't worry about it. YMMV

The only places I open carry is on the range, and in the woods I'll unbutton my my coat or shirt; I would call that semi-open carry since a gust of wind will open the cover. It also makes it easier to draw if needed.
 
As far as the sign on the door of a bank prohibiting carry there, I guess the thought is it would prevent robberies because the bad guy would say, "Whoa! I was going to go in and rob this one, but the sign says I can't take my gun inside! Darn! I guess I'll go get an honest job, instead. Darn signs!"
Hey, who am I to argue with the rationale behind the thinking from large corporations? [wink] I just found it interesting there's no sign there for the customers to abide by. But maybe that's the former penal colony resident in me...
 
...I just found it interesting there's no sign there for the customers to abide by.
Now, that's scary thinking. You need to spend more time in a free state. No sign for us customers to abide by? Whatever shall we do?

In a free state, we say "No law disallows this, therefore I am free to do it." We do not say "No law allows us to do this, therefore we cannot do it."

You've been wounded, but it's not mortal. Breathe the free air.
 
My experience has been for every lawyer you ask about PO carry, you get two different opinions.

Plus 2 bills! [rofl]



For some reason, I recall it being REQUIRED way back maybe in the 60's or 70's so you couldn't HIDE a gun on you. If you had one, you had to make sure some part of it was exposed. Anyone else remember this?
 
Western style was always to wear it openly. The only ones who concealed their weapons were the crooks! Sometimes women as well to be "lady like" or some such nonsense.
 
Now, that's scary thinking. You need to spend more time in a free state. No sign for us customers to abide by? Whatever shall we do?

In a free state, we say "No law disallows this, therefore I am free to do it." We do not say "No law allows us to do this, therefore we cannot do it."

You've been wounded, but it's not mortal. Breathe the free air.
I think you missed the point of my post -- my bad, `cause I didn't make it clear enough. I meant it from the point-of-view of the bank; i.e. we want our customers to do X and Y. Not from the point-of-view that as a citizen, I should follow Y and Z because I think maybe the bank wants me to.

And yes, the free air I've been breathing for the past year does taste a little strange somedays. [grin]
 
I think open carry needs to be 110% legal, period, end. ...

It isn't illegal if you have the proper license. Sure, some will argue that if you are acting like a boob and flaunt it around a mall or whatever that you might run into issues, but it is not illegal. Period, end. (Keep your test cases to yourselves, please.) I will repeat what I've said before, that I've seen it in stores and restaurants, and wasn't alarmed and doubt that anything came of it as one of the restaurant owners is married to a cop and thought nothing of it. Again, if you are hunting or in the woods, there are hunting laws and regulations to follow and adhere to, but the fact that you carry open isn't illegal. If wrong, please cite here the law saying it is. And again, keep your test case of some guy with a windbreaker and a pizza to yourselves, because that is not what is being talked about.
 
It isn't illegal if you have the proper license. Sure, some will argue that if you are acting like a boob and flaunt it around a mall or whatever that you might run into issues, but it is not illegal. Period, end.

It may not be statutorily illegal, but its still a catalyst for administrative
punishment. And those who are allowed to administer such administrative
punishments are not prevented by the law from doing so, so therein lies
the problem. Your ability to carry openly and still retain ownership rights is
soley at the discretion of the person that issued your license. (or his
successor, if he gets replaced).

Further, issues with open carry extend far beyond MA.... Other
states explicitly ban it (either via their CCW regs or other laws). That is
why I think it should be explicitly legalized. If it's not explicitly stated as
legal (or backed up by case law or an AG's opinion) then the legal right to
carry openly is tenuous, at best. MA is not the only state with a
brain tumor regarding the carrying of unconcealed weapons.

If wrong, please cite here the law saying it is. And again, keep your test case of some guy with a windbreaker and a pizza to yourselves, because that is not what is being talked about.

Well, in a way it's exactly what we're talking about, though. Anything which
serves to inhibit one's right to open carry in public is a problem. In MA
this inhibitor is not statutory but administrative. As long as chiefs have administrative
power over licensing this problem will not go away. You can believe it's a longshot
all you want, and worship the fairytale of generally open carry in MA, but the rest of us,
especially some of the folks who have -really bad- chiefs, realize that such BS is not a
longshot. I'd also venture a guess that Joe is not the first guy to have
dumb administrative punishments levied against him, and he certainly won't
be the last, either.


-Mike
 
In NY I used to openly carry all the time. I have a CCW, but didn't care to bother especially in the summer. I would openly carry-again-if I didn't care to bother hiding it.

As far as the element of surprise-I'd rather a bad guy know outright that I was packing and that easier prey lie elsewhere. Likely prevent anything without needing surprise and hoping your draw is the quickest.
 
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Since I'm moving to Alabama, I thought I'd ad my $0.02. I support open carry, & have done so in NH on a few occasions. It may be nice to be able to just wear my gun on my belt in the summer, & not have to worry about wearing an extra shirt to hide it. I wouldn't do it on a regular basis, but I feel that it should be my decision to make. I like the element of surprise as much as the rest of you, but I HATE being told that I must conceal it.

In my daily business transactions, I wouldn't worry about the people openly carrying.....I'd worry about the criminals & thugs, who apparenty are masters of concealment.

I've often wondered if it would be beneficial to the cause to open carry. I'm not someone who looks like a thug, or would be very intimidating to most people. If women in particular carried guns openly, perhaps it would be a positive image for gun owners. Just a thought. [thinking]
 
It may not be statutorily illegal, but its still a catalyst for administrative
punishment. And those who are allowed to administer such administrative
punishments are not prevented by the law from doing so, so therein lies
the problem.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by this? I'm confused, if something is illegal how can someone punish you for it (or for something else)?
 
Can you elaborate on what you mean by this? I'm confused, if something is illegal how can someone punish you for it (or for something else)?

We're talking about MA, the Police chiefs there can deem you unsuitable for any reason they choose and take away your LTC.
 
Can you elaborate on what you mean by this? I'm confused, if something is illegal how can someone punish you for it (or for something else)?
What would stop them? Technically you have the right to appeal in court, but there are no guarantees and the time and expense is quite large. If the Chief presents his case correctly (that you are unsuitable) he no longer has to do anything, the Judge will back him. There is no standard for "suitability" for you to rely on. You can fight city hall, they are paid to be there to harass you whether you win or not. Even when you win you lose.
 
Can you elaborate on what you mean by this? I'm confused, if something is illegal how can someone punish you for it (or for something else)?

2nd what MarkM said.... In MA, the chiefs here have ultimate control over
your license, in terms of issuing it or even revoking it, or not renewing
it, or as most frequently seen, restricting it to the point of making it nearly
unuseable. There are some legal means to fight them in certain
circumstances, but basically the laws here allow the chiefs to get away
with murder, so to speak; eg, they're empowered with the ability to take away
someone's license without having to use due process to do so. While many
chiefs here are reasonable, there are many in MA which are marginal and would
look for any excuse possible to axe someone's license.

While the idea "sounds good" in theory (eg, allowing the chief to not
issue a gun license to known troublemakers) , in practice this discretionary
licensing is more often not used to arbitrarily restrict the rights of the
applicant, or used to hassle/deny as many licensees as possible to whittle
down the number of active licenses. The problem is discretionary
licensing is an anti gun police chief's wet dream. And they frequently use
it for their own agendas, which have absolutely nothing to do with public
safety. Every once in awhile you hear about the cases, like Joe's
case where he lost concealment accidentally, or that Army officer who was
harassed in brookline when applying for a permit, but it's important to know
that where there is smoke there is fire. For every one of these guys that
lawyer up and fight back, there are probably a few others we don't hear
about because they don't have the money to do so, and end up relinquishing
their license/guns. Add to that the number of people who get "scared away" by
illegal requirements such as psych evals, and the like, that some chiefs ask for, and
you end up with a horror show.


-Mike
 
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