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Thoughts on safeties

S

Swift River Rob

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In over 40 years of shooting I had my first “unintended discharge” the other day. I was down the range with my Ruger Mark III, fired a couple of rounds, moved the safety to safe, when I went to fire again I pulled trigger, safety was on, did not fire. I moved the safety to fire, the pistol discharged (pointed at target, hit the 8 ring). I tried it again, fire a few, put on safe, pull trigger with safety on and with gun safely pointed down range, didn’t fire. I moved safety to fire position, the pistol discharges, and no finger on trigger.

I learned to shoot over 40 years ago. The two gentlemen that trained me, one a WW1 vet, the other a WW2 vet had no faith in safeties. They pounded into my head they were only a mechanical device subject to failure so don’t rely on them. The firearms I learned on were an S&W K-22, Winchester 94, Marlin 39, and a Winchester falling block. All had hammers and it was easy to tell if they were cocked or not. Honestly I rarely use the safety; muzzle control, not pointing at something I don’t want to shoot and treating every firearm as though it is loaded has kept me safe as well as companions.

Many of the accidental shootings (is there really any such thing as an accident? or are they a matter of stupidity and unsafe gun handling) reported on various forums always seem to be with semis. With the advent of DAO pistols, in particular the current trend to partially energize the hammer spring to lighten up on the trigger pull (Para LDA for example) and our reliance and faith in technology are we endangering ourselves and others with our faith in safeties???
 
My safety is on top of my shoulders.
I remember a hunter/safety course I took as a kid. The instructor picked up a firearm with no safety and pointed that out. Then he picked one up with a safety and pointed that out.
Then he asked which one is more dangerous.
Everyone selected the one w/out a safety when the actual answer was niether/both.
Make sure you get your pistol looked at.
 
You are the safety. Never rely on a mechanical feature to be your safety. If you obey the 3 basic rules, you can assure that you will not hurt yourself or others.
 
The 9mm Beretta pistol I got has a chamber-loaded indicator, and I have honestly never actually looked at it when the gun was loaded,ever.


I always open the action when I pick up the gun, to see what is in the chamber. I don't see the point of looking at the indicator on the pistol, since I wouldn't trust it anyway. If I have to look at that indicator, it would tell me something was wrong with how I am handling the gun.

But I do like the safety/decocker on the Beretta. If I put the gun down for a moment on the firing line, with rounds in the magazine and in the chamber, I like to have the hammer disconnected to prevent anything happening in case the gun were dropped somehow.
 
hminsky said:
I always open the action when I pick up the gun, to see what is in the chamber. I don't see the point of looking at the indicator on the pistol, since I wouldn't trust it anyway. If I have to look at that indicator, it would tell me something was wrong with how I am handling the gun
Click to expand...

I think my wife thinks I'm doing some TV gun thing everytime I pick up my gun, because I always open the action to check the chamber. I'm kind of nuerotic about it, actually. I've never looked in the "Mass Hole".

Regarding the safety, I bought a SIG without a safety because I was afraid in that crucial moment I'd forget the safety and not be able to fire. Since the safety is not to be trusted, I just figured I'd better learn safe handling, muzzle direction, etc. and not worry about the safety.

Matt
 
I honestly can't remember using my safety on any of my guns...EVER.

And when I pick one up and it doesn't go bang. It takes a second for me to check to see if the safety is on. Mostly it's because someone else has shot my gun and they put the safety on.

When I'm shooting, I open the action to show that it's empty when I'm done, or checking the target.
 
Swift River, I am wondering about the "rest of the story." Is your Mk III defective, broken, or should I check out my own Mk III this weekend. If this is a common defect, then I would rather find out on purpose, versus by surprise.

What did you end up finding out about your gun and the "safety?"

And, congrats, on following "the rules" and keeping the gun pointed down range.... I, for one, saw the message "between the lines" in your post.
 
traveler beat me to it. Good job in keeping the gun pointed in a safe direction. [grin]

I have never used a safety on any of my guns or rifles. I make believe there isn't one. If the gray cells can't keep me safe, then I'm in really deep poo.
 
Yep the Mark III is broken, goes to the smith on Monday, but check yours if you own one. I rarely use a safty but that day there was someone else on the range so I figured I'd use it. That 'll teach me.

The best safety is the one between your ears!!!!
 
I completly agree with you guys on your head being the first safety,
however, 13 years as a grunt are hard to unlearn. I use the mechanical safety on all my weapons, sans my carry gun. At the range, mechanical safety is on. Just habit.
 
I don't like safeties. I don't use them and prefer guns that don't have them to begin with.
But I will be checking out my Mark III later on today just to make sure I don't have the same issues.
 
I carried a Colt Commander for ages, always claiming to carry cocked & locked. Almost everybody considered that to be living on the edge, which was why I claimed to carry that way. The reality was that I never bothered with the safety, since I was brought up never to attempt delegating my absolute responsibility for safety to a little mechanical gizmo. Besides, there's no way to do a press check with the safety on.

Ken
 
I carry my SW CS45 with one in the chamber, decocked and safety off. Just like a revolver. Pull the trigger- bang !

No one ever worries about lack of safety on a revolver, why would they with a decocked semi?

I do carry my 1911 cocked and locked. I think carrying it cocked and unlocked would be asking for problems.
 
A question for you folks that carry with the safety off:

Do you practice with the safety? While I bought the Sig (no safety), most other guns I considered did have a safety. I figured I could just carry it with the safety off.

But I worried that if I didn't practice with it (draw, safety off, bang) then if I ever needed the gun in a hurry and the safety was on (bumped into that position for example) it wouldn't go bang when I needed it to.

What do you think?

Matt
 
Pilgrim said:
Matt, I'm not familiar with a Sig. Does it have a decocker? If so why would you worry about the safety? It would handle like a revolver.

My safety is never on except for the 1911.

Pardon me on my ignorance of your Sig.
Click to expand...

Sig has only a decocker, so yes it is like a revolver. No safety to worry about either way. I would carry it chambered and decocked.

My question was do you guys who do have guns with safeties train to turn off the safety, eventhough you leave it off, just in case it is 'accidentally' on?

Matt
 
The potential danger of a weapon that is loaded and cocked comes from the stored energy in the compressed main spring, held back only by the trigger/sear mechanism. An accidental discharge can result not only from an unintended operation of the trigger, but also a failure of the trigger or sear. With many designs, there is also a cognate risk of AD from dropping the weapon in a way that jars the trigger/sear out of engagement when the weapon's fall is arrested by whatever it falls on.

In theory, a safety diminishes the probability of an AD by doing one of two things: either blocking the trigger movement or inserting an additional restraint on the release of the firing pin. However, the second approach, and sometimes also the first approach, amounts to inserting a second, parallel trigger mechanism into the system.

The reported event with the Ruger pistol comes about because, either by design or defect, the retardant boundary of the safety is downstream (i.e., closer to the firing position) than that of the trigger. In effect, when the trigger is pulled with the safety on, the pulling of the trigger releases its restraint but the weapon does not fire because the firing mechanism is still restrained by the safety. However, if the safety restraint boundary is downstream, this means that pulling the trigger with the safety on allows the firing mechanism to move in the firing direction just enough that the trigger/sear cannot reset after being released. Now it is only the safety that is restraining firing, and when the safety is moved to the fire position, the firing mechanism is released. There have been numerous reported like instances, predominantly with bolt action rifle triggers and safeties.

One of the best safeties ever designed was that on the M1 Garand. It engages a separate set of hooks on the hammer that are further AWAY from the firing direction than those engaged by the trigger; putting the safety on actually moves the hammer back from and off the trigger hooks. This allows the trigger to reset when released after having been pulled with the safety on.

So the conclusion is that, with many, perhaps most, firearm designs, employing the safety creates a new path for AD, one of which the user must be aware. One approach is to disable the safety or decline as a matter of practice not to use it. This approach, however, with some weapons (including the Gov't Model .45), substitutes the risk of a dropped-weapon AD for the risk of a safety-release AD; since the former is larger than the latter, overall risk is increased. Another approach, which I used to teach, is to assume that whenever the safety is released the weapon might fire, and so it should be pointed in a direction appropriate for that potential.
 
I engage the safty on my 1911 only when I feel the need to put the gun down before it is empty, but not for long enugh time to warrent taking out the mag and cracking the chamber. This is FAR from nessisary, since the 4 rules are the best safty Any gun could have, but I just find it to be "A good idea"

Also I practice evey mode and feature on my gun just so I can better know my weapons and discover glitches like the safty on the Mk III above mentioned.

The one thing I did find was the horrible safty risk that comes from using the "Ma**h***", it's nearly impossible on my 1911 to deturmine with any faith if there is a round in the chamber....so I don't use the damn thing, and never tell people who have never used that gun about it for thier own safty. If you need to check the chamber, just pull the slide back a little ways and look (or even feel).

I'm all for practicing with the safty even if you don't intend to use it for the exact reason that if you need the weapon and the safty got bumped on you'll immidiatly be able to eliminate that variable.

-Weer'd Beard
 
Just a quick response here based on matt's comment from page #1: That is the precise reason I love the SIG P220 and other pistols based on the same design! You can whip it out and fire it DA, with a heavy trigger, so you must be sure you are going to fire it and what the target is, then SA for more aimed shots like at the range and follow up shots. I do not like to have to hit a safety. Missing a duck because of not hitting the safety is fine, but missing a bad guy and getting shot first would really ruin yer day!!
 
it's nearly impossible on my 1911 to deturmine with any faith if there is a round in the chamber....so I don't use the damn thing, and never tell people who have never used that gun about it for thier own safty. If you need to check the chamber, just pull the slide back a little ways and look (or even feel).
Click to expand...
Huh? I'm confused. The ONLY responsible way to determine whether the chamber is full is to pull the slide back and check. That's true of most any semi-auto, not just a 1911. And why would that be impossible to do on your 1911? You've lost me here...
 
M1911 said:
Huh? I'm confused. The ONLY responsible way to determine whether the chamber is full is to pull the slide back and check. That's true of most any semi-auto, not just a 1911. And why would that be impossible to do on your 1911? You've lost me here...
Click to expand...


Nope, you got confused. The ONLY way I check for a loaded chamber is to pull back the slide.

It's Tom Reilly who thinks it's safe to deturmine the status of the chamber to look into a "ma**h***"

I use the former, and refuse to even talk about the latter, except in contempt.

-Weer'd Beard
 
Weer'd Beard said:
Nope, you got confused. The ONLY way I check for a loaded chamber is to pull back the slide.

It's Tom Reilly who thinks it's safe to deturmine the status of the chamber to look into a "ma**h***"

I use the former, and refuse to even talk about the latter, except in contempt.

-Weer'd Beard
Click to expand...

Even the gun manuals say this (for those who read manuals). They tell you the only way to be sure is to look in the chamber, and not to rely on the indicator!

Matt
 
Ma**h***, that's funny. I am assuming you are talking about the chamber indicator hole found on certain pistols? My SIG P232 has a chamber indicator that is integral with the ejector if I remember correctly. If a round is in the chamber, it is resting on the rim, or just ahead of it, so a little red spot shows on the raised ejector. I still don't rely on it, but it is a neat thingy anyways. Pull the slide back a little, look at the round, let it go back into battery...
 
centermass181 said:
I completly agree with you guys on your head being the first safety,
however, 13 years as a grunt are hard to unlearn. I use the mechanical safety on all my weapons, sans my carry gun. At the range, mechanical safety is on. Just habit.
Click to expand...


was thinking about this post today, I dont think sans is the word I was looking for, so Ill stick to english.......

except.
 

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