Thoughts on Abu Ghraib and the guy that revealed it.

[Lugnut]

Just watched 60 minutes and they interviewed the guy (Garby?) that spilled the beans on the gaurds. I guess it was unsafe for him and his wife to return home because of all the threats he received. I've never served in the military but I can understand that loyalty is increadibly important. However what those gaurds did was absolutely horrifying. I did some research and realized the 7 gaurds did a lot more than I knew. I'm not saying what I would do if I was in Garby's situation but I can't say I fault him at all. What do you guys think? For those who have served does it give a different perspective?

I did a search and I didn't see this covered before... if it was please delete this.

 

[Jose]

In all honesty, what was done at Abu Ghraib does not even come close to the definition of torture.

 

[Lugnut]

In all honesty, what was done at Abu Ghraib does not even come close to the definition of torture.

Sorry... unless I got some bad data.. I'd say sodomy is torture. And there was more. I understand war it brutally ugly, and war is war. But this is just not right.

 

[FPrice]

What was Abu Ghraib compared to four Blackwater contractors killed, hung upside down and theirbodies burned? Or Daniel Pearl beheaded in a most barbaric fashion? Or people forced to sit in airplanes that were flown into towers? Or people in those towers having to jump to their deaths to avoid being burned to death?

When you can explain to me how Abu Ghraib compares to these then we can talk. But until then I'll just consider that the soldiers "guilty" of those "crimes" were perhaps stupid for doing them but not worthy of national breast-beating and lamentations of how bad we are.

 

[EddieCoyle]

In all honesty, what was done at Abu Ghraib does not even come close to the definition of torture.

No kidding. The people that call that "torture" have obviously never been through junior high. Seriously; hazing for the football team was way, way worse than that. All the hoopla is just yet another way to try to make Bush look bad. Yeah, we get it, you don't like him. OK, now you got Congress, let's see you do better (without wrecking the country beyond repair). Pussies.

Lugnut, I'm guessing you're fairly young. Don't buy onto the media's crap. The whole blow-up over that was enhanced by the Democrats and their media minions as a way to make W look bad (at the expense of the US, but they don't care).

EDIT: For the love of God man.. 60 Minutes? You are basing ANY opinion at all on something you saw on Sixty Friggin Minutes!!??! Go watch Al Jazeera and report back on what you saw! Jesus! Get a grip!

EDIT #2: Luggy, no offense, you seem like a good guy, but 60 Minutes? Just because it's on TV doesn't mean that it's right, or true.

 

[Lugnut]

When you can explain to me how Abu Ghraib compares to these then we can talk.

No need to get get upset at me. I didn't make any comparisons between Abu Ghraid and the other situations you listed at all. Doesn't mean something wasn't right.

I posted a question to see what people thought about the guy that revealed what happened.

 

[Lugnut]

Lugnut, I'm guessing your fairly young. Don't buy onto the media's crap. The whole blow-up over that was enhanced by the Democrats and their media minions as a way to make W look bad (at the expense of the US, but they don't care).

EDIT: For the love of God man.. 60 Minutes? You are basing ANY opinion at all on something you saw on Sixty Friggin Minutes!!??! Go watch Al Jazeera and report back on what you saw! Jesus! Get a grip!

Nice... now I got people upset at me... wow. I guess it's a pretty sensitive issue. I said I watched the show and did some additional reseach. I'm a conservative republican and older than you might think. Thanks for your kind comments though.

 

[Lugnut]

EDIT #2: Luggy, no offense, you seem like a good guy, but 60 Minutes? Just because it's on TV doesn't mean that it's right.

It's got nothing to do with 60 minutes. It's got nothing to do with the media's spin. I come to my own conclusions based on more than just one source.

I am a good guy. Trust me.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Let's look at a torture scorecard:

Arab Muslims:

• Acid dripped in the eyes
• Raping an underage family member in front of you
• Using bolt cutters to remove fingers and toes
• High voltage applied to genitals

The US:

• Getting men naked
• Keeping them up late
• Laughing at genital size
• Making men wear leashes

Comparing the first and second groups is like comparing the most heinous, Nazi-esque treatment possible to my prom date.

 

[EddieCoyle]

It's got nothing to do with 60 minutes. It's got nothing to do with the media's spin. I come to my own conclusions based on more than just one source.

I am a good guy. Trust me.

Nice... now I got people upset at me... wow. I guess it's a pretty sensitive issue. I said I watched the show and did some additional reseach. I'm a conservative republican and older than you might think. Thanks for your kind comments though.

OK, let's see your sources. Back it up. I'm guessing they're either not linkable, or they're from a questionable source. I don't mean to be a hardass Lugnut, but this kind of crap media-induced pseudo-hysteria burns my ass.

 

[Lugnut]

Let's look at a torture scorecard:

Arab Muslims:

• Acid dripped in the eyes
• Raping an underage family member in front of you
• Using bolt cutters to remove fingers and toes
• High voltage applied to genitals

The US:

• Getting men naked
• Keeping them up late
• Laughing at genital size
• Making men wear leashes

Comparing the first and second groups is like comparing the most heinous, Nazi-esque treatment possible to my prom date.

I've never, nor do I intend to make comparisons between these two groups. The lists are incomplete though- you might want to read up. I think I'll go back to reloading since this is deviating from my original posted questions...

 

[EddieCoyle]

this is deviating from my original posted questions...

Cool. Don't back it up. Seriously, do you think 60 Minutes is a reliable source?

 

[FPrice]

No need to get get upset at me. I didn't make any comparisons between Abu Ghraid and the other situations you listed at all. Doesn't mean something wasn't right.

I posted a question to see what people thought about the guy that revealed what happened.

I'm not upset at you. I just made my thoughts crystal clear.

 

[Lugnut]

Cool. Don't back it up. Seriously, do you think 60 Minutes is a reliable source?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,150163,00.html (lots of links there)
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/iraq/graner51404chrg.html (lots of legal docs)

There's more. Honestly I don't consider much I see on TV as reliable. The media has a distorted perspective and a left slant.

By the way.. the interview wasn't focused on the actual events at Abu Ghraid but was about the way the family and friends of Garby responded to him. That was the impedus of my original post.

 

[EddieCoyle]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,150163,00.html (lots of links there)
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/iraq/graner51404chrg.html (lots of legal docs)

There's more. Honestly I don't consider much I see on TV as reliable. The media has a distorted perspective and a left slant.

OK, the first link was a story "that was released by the American Civil Liberties Union" (see my unreliable sources comment above).

Your second link goes to a scanned document outlining the charges against Spc. Charles Graner (May 14, 2004) the first (and most serious of which) is "did photograph a detainee being dragged by Private First Class English with a leash wrapped around the neck of the detainee."

Seriously.. do you read your own references? This is what you're mounting as a defense? C'mon torture, or bad prom date?

That's the best you can do? 60 Minutes, ACLU, and a leash?

 

[EddieCoyle]

OK Lugnut, let's settle this quick. You pick:

Any Arab Muslim prison or Abu Ghraib?

 

[Lugnut]

OK, the first link was a story "that was released by the American Civil Liberties Union" (see my unreliable sources comment above).

Your second link goes to a scanned document outlining the charges against Spc. Charles Graner (May 14, 2004) the first (and most serious of which) is
"did photograph a detainee being dragged by Private First Class English with a leash wrapped around the neck of the detainee."

Seriously.. do you read your own references> This is what you're mounting as a defense? C'mon torture, or bad prom date?

That's the best you can do? 60 Minutes, ACLU, and a leash?

OMG- I think I certainly read more of them than you did. Each one of those web sites had dozens of additional links that I read as well as others I didn't bother listing. Did you actually read the entire scanned doc or just the first page? Never mind the links I sent... spend some time looking at links you approve.

I'm going to try to move on.. this isn't going anywhere good and is not productive at all.

 

[EddieCoyle]

dozens of additional links that I read as well as others

OK. Post 'em. Just the ones that are really damning, not the phony apology ones or the ones from the ACLU or Al Jazeera. Dozens, huh?

 

[dreppucci007]

My quick 0.02...

Regardless of what did/may have happened, your fellow soldiers are your family...You DO NOT rat out your family...PERIOD. He's a liberal f***ing pussy whose "feelings" about how well the enemy was treated got in the way of him thinking about how it could affect everything else. He tried to pass these things on "anonymously" so that he wouldn't be connected to blowing the whistle...MORON, they figured it out in less than 45 minutes!

I'm stopping here because I sat through the whole segment with him, and I'm just as pissed now thinking about it again.

 

[clinotus]

What was Abu Ghraib compared to four Blackwater contractors killed, hung upside down and theirbodies burned? Or Daniel Pearl beheaded in a most barbaric fashion? Or people forced to sit in airplanes that were flown into towers? Or people in those towers having to jump to their deaths to avoid being burned to death?

When you can explain to me how Abu Ghraib compares to these then we can talk. But until then I'll just consider that the soldiers "guilty" of those "crimes" were perhaps stupid for doing them but not worthy of national breast-beating and lamentations of how bad we are.

I'd wager because we hold ourselves to different standards and levels of respect?

 

[MrsWildweasel]

First off my comments.... What happened at Abu was minor as to what the Iraqi's have done or would do to any of our men or women serving. Shit always runs down hill. Granted we as Americans are held to a higher standard. If you're going to bring people up on charges, then the there are plenty of higher ups from that scandal that also need to be brought up on charges.

Now if you think what we did was horrible, I think you need to talk with my son who has just gotten back from Iraq and he can tell you the Iraqi's that run the prisons are about a hundred times worse than anything we have ever done.
Now a few years after all the Abu Graihb scandal our son spent almost a year there recently with his unit. Now he and his unit had to live with the notariety of what had happened there. They also were the ones to close Abu and hand it back to the iraqi's. They also opened a new prison while there.
What you don't relalise or the masses don't either, is Abu held the worst of the worst of detainees. These guys thought nothing of killing our men and women over there.
They also had juvies, and some of them were as young as 9. They weren't there for a speeding ticket.
Our son worked all aspects of the prison, even the catch and release part where they would let how ever many go and guess what a few days later they were being brought back in, cause you know what they were out there trying to kill our men and women again.
Our son traveled all over Iraq moving detainees from one prison to another. These scumbags would rather stay in the Americans hands than be turned over to the Iraqi's. One thing Alan would say is their court systems move faster than ours.
Our son also had an Iraqi in the prison tell him how he tought his young children to make IEDs to kill the Americans.
Now if you want to get all high and mighty about what happened at Abu or believe everything you hear from 60 minutes of all friggin places that is your choice.
I'm not saying what was done is right either,but you need to learn all the facts and not from the leftist media either.
In the grand scheme of things the Abu scandal was minor to what the Iraqi's do to them once they are turned over to them and these scumbags know it.

 

[FPrice]

Well said, Sue.

 

[MrsWildweasel]

Thanks, Frosty. Just the subject matter has me a bit steamed at the moment.
Now the person who started this thread needs to visit Abu and see what it was also like to be mortared on a nightly basis there and endure a small amount of what Alan and his unit went through this last year.

 

[daceman63]

I think the guy is a rat. If he is harrassed and needs to move I think it's ok he's harrassed and he should move to Iraq or Iran or somewhere far away from this country.

Two wrongs don't make it right......but you never....ever.....ever betray your brothers in arms and you never turn your back on this country.

That's what he did. He doesn't deserve to keep his citizenship.

 

[Martlet]

Sorry... unless I got some bad data.. I'd say sodomy is torture.

Brent doesn't think so.

 

[Admin]

Brent doesn't think so.

ZING!

 

[MrsWildweasel]

Wow! Brent thrown under the bus once again.

 

[matt1956]

sigh... If that was the absolute worst thing those effing animals got, they they got off easy.

Sorry, but the vile scum that is in those prisons over there don't even deserve to breath air. These are people that will stop at NOTHING to kill as many American's and "Westerners" as they can. Men, women and children, the more they kill the more they are revered by their peers.

Unless it was sodomy with a 6" thick Iron rod heated to 1200 degrees, I wouldn't call it out of line.

These are young men and women that we have sent to fight in a horrible place and they see DAILY the sinister acts that these freaking animals do to their own people and their brothers in arms.

These freaking scumbags were not in the worst prison in Iraq for effing Jaywalking. Personally I think we should have simply pulled out troops from the prison, and nailed it with a few hundred Hellfire missiles, but that may be to humain for what those f-ers deserve.

But I'm sure that because the liberal media reports it... it must be a horrible thing.

 

[MrsWildweasel]

First off let me say the original poster of this thread didn't realize how alot of us would feel and didn't mean to invoke the feelings we have about this. It wasn't his original intent.
I am probably a little more sensitive to it since Alan and his unit just spent a year there and closed Abu and handed it over to the Iraqi's.

Matt, that isn't the worst jail over there. Alan will beg to differ with you since he transported alot of the scumbags to various Iraqi jails all over Iraq.

 

[matt1956]

My mistake

I still think they should liquify them all though

Oh... and no offence to the origianl poster... everyone has their view... I'm just rather loud and kind of an ass when I expresss mine at times... or at least that what my wife tells me.