This bank wants to track suspect credit card sales of guns and ammo. Why can't it?

[Buck F]

This bank wants to track suspect credit card sales of guns and ammo. Why can't it?

Imagine if banks decide to track certain medical transactions if Roe gets overturned...

 

[DarrenL]

Buy too much guns or ammo at one time, instant red flag

 

[Prepper]

I feel dirty for even clicking on that link and giving them ad revenue. Please, run everything through archive.today before posting it:

https://archive.ph/gVJPG

 

[slap shot]

That link brings you someplace else entirely, and prompts for a payment (in UK pounds) to continue.

Works ok for me.

 

[StevieP]

The credit card industry has blocked a novel effort to track suspect firearm and ammunition purchases, depriving law enforcement of a potential tool to identify and stop gun crime.

Documents obtained by CBS News show employees from domestic and international credit card companies, including Visa, Mastercard and American Express, pushed back on an application to create a merchant category code for firearm and ammunition sellers.

The application was first submitted in July 2021 by the New York-based Amalgamated Bank, and was twice denied by the International Standards Organization (ISO), which sets standards across the financial services industry. The documents show that the credit card industry employees were part of an internal committee within ISO that recommended the application's rejection. The ISO told CBS News the credit card companies only advised the committee and did so in a "personal capacity."

"So much illegal gun activity depends on your ability to use the financial system to buy the guns," Priscilla Sims Brown, the CEO of Amalgamated Bank told CBS News chief investigative correspondent Jim Axelrod in an exclusive interview.

Amalgamated was founded by union workers nearly 100 years ago and bills itself as the nation's oldest socially responsible bank.

"We believe you can do well and do good," Sims Brown said.

The bank began considering applying for a unique firearms seller code after it said it noticed some of the deadliest mass shootings were being financed with credit cards.

The shooter who terrorized a Colorado movie theater in 2012 charged more than $9,000 worth of guns, ammunition and tactical gear in the two months leading up to his attack that killed 12 and injured 70.

The man who shot up the Pulse Nightclub in Orlando, killing 49 people, put more than $26,000 on credit cards.

And the shooter who killed 59 at a music festival in Las Vegas charged almost $95,000.

"We have an obligation to address crime that is being facilitated through our system," Sims Brown said.

What merchant codes for gun sales would yield​

Sims Brown said a merchant category code for firearm and ammunition sellers would yield data that could identify a transaction was made at a gun store, while not revealing which individual products were purchased. Merchant codes are used across all sorts of industries.

"So you might be — a nail salon. You might be a sporting goods store. There's a merchant category code assigned to you, so that we can see that purchase has been made," Sims Brown said.

And while even shoeshine parlors have their own merchant code, the nearly 9,000 standalone U.S. guns sellers do not. With a unique code for firearm and ammunition sellers, the bank said it could run software to detect purchases in the same way it detects evidence of other suspicious activity, like fraud and human trafficking.

"We could identify and detect where there may be gun sales that are intended for black markets, where we see patterns of gun purchases being made in multiple gun shops," Sims Brown said. "We could see the patterns of behavior that would indicate to us that there is something not right here."

The bank said it could then file what's called a suspicious activity report with law enforcement if they suspect possible gun crimes. Banks and credit unions made more than 1.4 million of the reports in 2021, flagging transactions that might suggest anything from identity theft to terrorist financing.

"Financial institutions provide information to law enforcement on a regular basis," former ATF senior special agent Jim Yurgealitis told Axelrod. He spent more than two decades investigating gun crime for the federal law enforcement agency.

Yurgealitis said he believed law enforcement would benefit from a unique code for firearm sellers, especially in cases when someone is buying a large amount of weapons or in the case of a straw purchase, when someone is buying a weapon for someone who isn't legally allowed to have one.

"It may bring to the attention of law enforcement something that they were previously unaware of," Yurgealitis said.

The application ​

In July 2021, Amalgamated submitted its application to the International Standards Organization "for the creation of a new merchant category code (MCC) for gun and ammunition stores." The application was sent directly to two employees of Visa and Mastercard who serve as industry representatives on an ISO committee that considers new merchant category codes.

"I can confirm that the MCC code application has been received and will be brought forth for discussion when the committee meets again," the Mastercard employee wrote in an email to Amalgamated.

In October, the bank's application was denied. Before it applied, the bank was informed by the Visa employee in an email: "Although I can't specify the actual voters or individual names, there is representation from all the major cards [sic] brands globally (MC, Visa, Amex, JCB, Discover, etc.)."

Amalgamated decided to appeal the decision after seeking further input from the card company employees.
"Specific MCC [codes] in narrow retails [sic] areas are challenging," wrote an employee from American Express. "Managing long lists of narrowly defined MCCs can become burdensome if there isn't a compelling reason for the long list."

In February, the international organization denied Amalgated's appeal. In an email, the bank was told a new code for gun and ammunition sellers would fail to capture "the sales at sporting goods stores" and, at the same time, would place a "burden" on small retailers.

Sims Brown said she was incredulous the organization denied Amalgamated's appeal.

"I mean, the shoeshine shop has a merchant code," she said. "Why not the gun shop? It's just so obvious. it's hard to deny the logic."

The International Standards Organization told CBS News the credit card companies were not responsible for the decision. Employees from those companies were serving in a personal capacity and "do not represent the views of their employer." Those who pushed to reject Amalgamated's application did so "based on their expertise," the organization said.

In statements to CBS News, American Express and Mastercard both said they were working to ensure only lawful purchases were permitted on their networks, but offered no specifics. Visa declined to comment.

Neither Visa, Mastercard, nor American Express would say if their companies supported creating a merchant code for firearms sellers, when asked by CBS News. In a statement, Mastercard said "we believe that it is the responsibility of elected officials to enact meaningful policies to address the issue of gun violence, while it remains Mastercard's role to ensure that consumers are permitted to make lawful purchases on our network."

Sims Brown said she disagreed.

"It is our responsibility," she said. "What price do you put on a life? If it stops two people from dying, isn't that worth it?"

^^ quoted from the source link.

Yeah, Ms. Sims Brown at Amalgamated Bank, you can go screw yourself.

Glad the rest of the industry rejected her/them.

 

[AFAR/PFAR]

That link brings you someplace else entirely, and prompts for a payment (in UK pounds) to continue.

no it doesn't. I use it all the time to read one of the local papers.

 

[FalArAk]

Pay cash.

I usually use my CC for every single purchase that I can for the cash back, but... I pay cash for guns.

 

[Kevin_NH]

"So much illegal gun activity depends on your ability to use the financial system to buy the guns," Priscilla Sims Brown, the CEO of Amalgamated Bank ...Amalgamated was founded by union workers nearly 100 years ago and bills itself as the nation's oldest socially responsible bank.

In July 2021, Amalgamated submitted its application to the ISO "for the creation of a new merchant category code (MCC) for gun and ammunition stores." The application was sent directly to two employees of Visa and Mastercard who serve as industry representatives on an ISO committee that considers new merchant category codes.

Amalgamated isn't doing this in good faith, there's obviously a larger agenda behind pushing for a different merchant code for stores which sell firearms and ammunition.

Ties into the push to get "Level 3" data on these transactions, down to the line item, caliber, quantity.

 

[Mtn_Guy]

Works ok for me.

+1

Pay cash.

I usually use my CC for every single purchase that I can for the cash back, but... I pay cash for guns.

I agree with maximizing CC purchases for bills, etc to maximize rewards points, but it’s gonna make TSUSA purchases with cash difficult.

These talking puppet-heads are all about pushing a control agenda. It may be tinfoil paranoia to extrapolate 1984, Minority Report, Terminator and the Matrix from all of this, but smart home devices, that stupid robot in Stop n Shop and all of this proposed regulation in the name of safety “for the children” is ever inching us closer to a dystopia.

 

[bigbravehog]

"So much illegal gun activity depends on your ability to use the financial system to buy the guns," Priscilla Sims Brown, the CEO of Amalgamated Bank told CBS News chief investigative correspondent Jim Axelrod in an exclusive interview.

how many criminals buy ammo with a CC ??

 

[Blackmore]

"So much illegal gun activity depends on your ability to use the financial system to buy the guns," Priscilla Sims Brown, the CEO of Amalgamated Bank told CBS News chief investigative correspondent Jim Axelrod in an exclusive interview.

She could be "Lootie's" sister

 

[one-eyed Jack]

"So much illegal gun activity depends on your ability to use the financial system to buy the guns," Priscilla Sims Brown, the CEO of Amalgamated Bank told CBS News chief investigative correspondent Jim Axelrod in an exclusive interview.

how many criminals buy ammo with a CC ??

In Chicago they use their EBT cards. Jack.

 

[bigbravehog]

In Chicago they use their EBT cards. Jack.

now that's effed up

 

[Amputee Marksman]

Amalgamated isn't doing this in good faith, there's obviously a larger agenda behind pushing for a different merchant code for stores which sell firearms and ammunition.

Ties into the push to get "Level 3" data on these transactions, down to the line item, caliber, quantity.

Depending on your line of business, MCC and how much volume you do from business and commercial cards dealing with Level 3 data is probably not worth the hassle. The other issue is most merchants are not setup to submit level 3 data with the txn and a lot of smaller processors can't accept level 3 data or they drop it on the floor and push the txn through without it.

Once you have the level 3 data and actually use it to calculate interchange there are no guarantees. You use the data to calculate the interchange and submit it when you settle the txns. You have no idea if you will get reclassified or not and assuming you get reclassified most of the time they aren't going to tell you why and you'll have to dig to find out the reason for reclassification.

The other problem is very few merchants are setup to handle multiple MCC. You are a sporting good store. You have a customer buy some basket balls, a pair of shoes, some recovery drinks, a knife and some ammo. They txn are submitted under one MCC. You can't submit an MCC on the TXN level. (Or more accurately processors can't handle MCC on a TXN level) Best you can do is on the batch level. Now you have to use multiple MCC and submit separate. User will see 2 charges instead of 1, all the junk and the ammo split out.

Sure I know it can be done but there will be tons of work to do. Level 3 data was created for use in interchange calculation. Usurping it to generate reports on firearms and data purchases will be no small task. Assuming you take the easy way out and assign a special MCC the data will be suspect. Let's say I go to Shooters Outpost and buy some tac pants, a belt and a range bag. It uses the new MCC but the data is junk because I really didn't buy any guns or ammo.

 

[Broc]

Buy too much guns or ammo at one time, instant red flag

OH MY ... I dont think their servers will have enough memory for all the powder, ammo, primers, bullets ... some here buy.

By the way, you should all buy some online before Healey becomes our Supreme leader, you know she has a huge hard on for that stuff.

 

[Mark from MA]

Pay cash.

I usually use my CC for every single purchase that I can for the cash back, but... I pay cash for guns.

Don't see the point in MA......the majority of OTC sales go thru federal paperwork and are registered on FA-10 at POS.

So yeah, the CC card company might not know, but your not hiding anything.

Plus if you buy more than one handgun at a time your sale is reported to your PD.

 

[FalArAk]

Don't see the point in MA......the majority of OTC sales go thru federal paperwork and are registered on FA-10 at POS.

So yeah, the CC card company might not know, but your not hiding anything.

Plus if you buy more than one handgun at a time your sale is reported to your PD.

Never said I was trying to hide anything

Besides, talking about the CC companies tracking your gun purchases.

 

[vicorjh]

Banks shouldn't be tracking sh.t. They need to concentrate on not ripping off their customers, security, and balancing their books.

 

[Junior314]

Don't see the point in MA......the majority of OTC sales go thru federal paperwork and are registered on FA-10 at POS.

So yeah, the CC card company might not know, but your not hiding anything.

Plus if you buy more than one handgun at a time your sale is reported to your PD.

This is a thing? Cite?

 

[MAJoe]

This is a thing? Cite?

Reporting Multiple Firearms Sales | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

The Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968 requires federal firearms licensees (FFLs) to send a report to ATF when there is a sale of multiple firearms to the same purchaser within a certain time period. ATF uses the information gathered from multiple sales transactions to investigate possible firearms...

www.atf.gov

It’s federal and applies to all US FFLs. Copies of the form go to the ATF and CLEO.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

This is a thing? Cite?

The dealer needs to do a form for the feds with a copy to the PD. Jack.

 

[Junior314]

Reporting Multiple Firearms Sales | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

The Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968 requires federal firearms licensees (FFLs) to send a report to ATF when there is a sale of multiple firearms to the same purchaser within a certain time period. ATF uses the information gathered from multiple sales transactions to investigate possible firearms...

www.atf.gov

It’s federal and applies to all US FFLs. Copies of the form go to the ATF and CLEO.

The dealer needs to do a form for the feds with a copy to the PD. Jack.

So a registry, got it.

 

[amm5061]

So the moral of the story is always pay cash for your guns and ammo.... Got it.

f***ing a**h***s.

 

[Mark from MA]

So a registry, got it.

The intent is to track large volumes of handgun purchases because of trafficking. Circa 1968

My buddy is was a CLEO in MA, and he gets those forms and just takes a look at who it is, and stashes it in a drawer. He didn't do any database or anything. After a year or two he thru them out. Can't speak for what other CLEO's do locally.

The ATF on the other hand, you can be sure if you bought 10 handguns in one day.......your probably gonna get a visit in a week or two asking to see every one of them. And now, for certain they have a database of multiple sales buyers.

 

[Mark from MA]

Never said I was trying to hide anything

Besides, talking about the CC companies tracking your gun purchases.

I really don't care that much.......since the firearm is registered at POS anyway. Ill take my 2% cash back from the Credit Card company or bank.

 

[bondsman333]

Pretty surprised they don't already have this sort of data.
That may not know exactly what you bought - but they know where you spend your money. Certain businesses (online and brick and mortar) are probably tagged as firearm type sales.

The value is ALWAYS in the data. They hire so many kids to analyze it.

 

[Prepper]

That link brings you someplace else entirely, and prompts for a payment (in UK pounds) to continue.

Uh, no it doesn't.

 

[StevieP]

Seems to be something going on with my browser. Malware/spyware checker doesn't find anything, but when I clicked that link yesterday it redirected me to somewhere else. Could be a DNS issue (?). It did work OK today. I deleted my original post to eliminate confusion, although it's now been quoted a few times.

 

[Broc]

Pretty surprised they don't already have this sort of data.
That may not know exactly what you bought - but they know where you spend your money. Certain businesses (online and brick and mortar) are probably tagged as firearm type sales.

The value is ALWAYS in the data. They hire so many kids to analyze it.

They have this data. Puechasing habits are a big dollar item.

 

[Mtn_Guy]

These talking puppet-heads are all about pushing a control agenda. It may be tinfoil paranoia to extrapolate 1984, Minority Report, Terminator and the Matrix from all of this, but smart home devices, that stupid robot in Stop n Shop and all of this proposed regulation in the name of safety “for the children” is ever inching us closer to a dystopia.

See…


View: https://youtu.be/BwcVm0YRvuo