MSant
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and if you leave with it, it becomes a carry on
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Things People Tell You ...
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cathouse01
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Yes, MA specifically excludes deadly force for property crimes. Also, in 1985 the Supreme Court found in Tennessee v. Garner that an officer may not use deadly force when pursuing a fleeing suspect "unless the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others.” Since then I believe most states that didn’t already prohibit citizens firing on fleeing felons have extended the ruling in Tennessee v. Garner to include citizens performing a citizens arrest. In this respect I think Texas is an outlier.
Yeah, retreat to where you keep your guns.
hillman
NES Member
I don't really see why it's so difficult. In a home invasion sort of situation, it's literally your word against a dead attempted murderer. Why anyone ever says something other than a variation on "I was in fear of my life. I did not feel I could get away without being killed due to my bad knee (insert literally any random excuse here), boggles my mind. "Yeah that submitch wanted my flat screen. I blasted his face off!" just doesn't seem too smart, I don't care what state you're in.
Horrible advise.
All you ever say:
- My name is XYZ.
- Where is my lawyer?
Then you shut the f*ck up.
Your fear means sh*t.
Your reason means sh*t.
Your family means sh*t.
Your sh*t knee means sh*t.
Your age means sh*t.
Your entire story will only get you in more trouble. Clearly you haven't thought that through.
Cops don't care about that.
No one that will interrogate you cares about that.
Your lawyer talks, you STFU.
A lot of these people will go after you to make a political statement and further their careers.
So, what do you do?
YOU SHUT THE F*CK UP.
Amazing we still need to say this on NES.
I have posted this maybe 50 times already. I used to date a prosecutor. Long story short, most of the people they got is because they thought were smart or helpful with their stupid stories and spoke before a lawyer was present.
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KBCraig
NES Member
Read it again.
PC 9.41 authorizes force --but not deadly force-- to terminate a trespass.
PC 9.42, as you quoted, authorizes deadly force, but not for simple trespass. 9.42 lists the specific reasons justifying deadly force.
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property;
Better have that lawyer's number on a loved one's phone with instructions to call. LEOs are NOT going to let you keep your phone or probably even use it to call anyone. They will confiscate it to send it to their forensic people to find proof that you were pre-disposed to kill someone and use that info for an indictment and conviction.
Best way to deal with it is to follow the Triple-S rule.
Shit, shower and shave?
Shoot.
Shovel.
Shut up.
And I'm not really kidding. Go look at the crime stats. Let's say somebody breaks into your home - ARMED and with full knowledge that there are people present there. It's an almost 100% certainty that person is not a newbie to crime. In fact they're more than likely already a hardened criminal - or - one of those kids who has been torturing cats since they were 5 years old and they're trying to graduate to humans.
Point here is: it's EXTREMELY unlikely if you pop the guy between the eyes - that you're killing some poor soul who was just trying to turn their life around.
So now let's say their body turns up in a shallow grave in the woods, half decomposed after floating in a river for a week, or the half coyote-eaten body is found by a hiker. As long as you removed the bullet - and nobody sees you hauling the body out of your house or dumping the body - and everybody in your family who was home at the time it happened can keep their friggin mouth shut........... when the cops find that body - and figure out who the corpse belongs to - which they will if the person is in the system - which he will be because of what I said above.......... it's also EXTREMELY unlikely any sort of resources will be expended to try and solve why said body is out in the woods.
I would also point out that in the age of Covid, Antifah, BLM, and the just general all-around shitshow our society has become , things are not "normal" any more. Resources are strained - police are under pressure...... dedicating time and money to figuring out why a douchebag met a douchebag's end is not something that will rise to the top of the list on where to spend precious budget dollars.
So in the end - your main determinant on whether or not you can "get away" with something like this are:
- your own conscience.
- the flapping gums of whoever else lives in the house with you and was present at the time it happened.
- your own ability to STFU
- the likelihood that anybody is going to report hearing a gunshot. I can tell you that in my sleepy suburban neighborhood I occasionally hear loud noises that just might be a gunshot. I don't bother to report it. I've used powder-charge nailsets - and no cop ever showed up at my house. This includes sometimes at later hours (I was inside). Also - pretty much everybody is in bed by 11pm. Shoot the guy ONCE inside the house - probably a 99% chance nobody is going to do a damn thing about that gun shot noise they *might* hear.
- your ability to dispose of the body without getting caught. This is probably the thing with the highest likelihood of getting your ass in trouble. Better really think it out.
As you can tell - I've actually thought this out.
Please don't break into my house.
On a piece of paper in my wallet.
Shoot.
Shovel.
Shut up.
And I'm not really kidding. Go look at the crime stats. Let's say somebody breaks into your home - ARMED and with full knowledge that there are people present there. It's an almost 100% certainty that person is not a newbie to crime. In fact they're more than likely already a hardened criminal - or - one of those kids who has been torturing cats since they were 5 years old and they're trying to graduate to humans.
Point here is: it's EXTREMELY unlikely if you pop the guy between the eyes - that you're killing some poor soul who was just trying to turn their life around.
So now let's say their body turns up in a shallow grave in the woods, half decomposed after floating in a river for a week, or the half coyote-eaten body is found by a hiker. As long as you removed the bullet - and nobody sees you hauling the body out of your house or dumping the body - and everybody in your family who was home at the time it happened can keep their friggin mouth shut........... when the cops find that body - and figure out who the corpse belongs to - which they will if the person is in the system - which he will be because of what I said above.......... it's also EXTREMELY unlikely any sort of resources will be expended to try and solve why said body is out in the woods.
I would also point out that in the age of Covid, Antifah, BLM, and the just general all-around shitshow our society has become , things are not "normal" any more. Resources are strained - police are under pressure...... dedicating time and money to figuring out why a douchebag met a douchebag's end is not something that will rise to the top of the list on where to spend precious budget dollars.
So in the end - your main determinant on whether or not you can "get away" with something like this are:
- your own conscience.
- the flapping gums of whoever else lives in the house with you and was present at the time it happened.
- your own ability to STFU
- the likelihood that anybody is going to report hearing a gunshot. I can tell you that in my sleepy suburban neighborhood I occasionally hear loud noises that just might be a gunshot. I don't bother to report it. I've used powder-charge nailsets - and no cop ever showed up at my house. This includes sometimes at later hours (I was inside). Also - pretty much everybody is in bed by 11pm. Shoot the guy ONCE inside the house - probably a 99% chance nobody is going to do a damn thing about that gun shot noise they *might* hear.
- your ability to dispose of the body without getting caught. This is probably the thing with the highest likelihood of getting your ass in trouble. Better really think it out.
As you can tell - I've actually thought this out.
Please don't break into my house.
OR, you could just move to a state with castle doctrine
cathouse01
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Actually my wife and I have discussed exactly what we will do if one or the other of us is involved in a defensive shooting, particularly if we are both present but only one of us (probably me) actually fires their gun. We both have our lawyer’s number on our phones and we’ve already discussed with him what we should do in such a situation.
OR, you could just move to a state with castle doctrine
True. But even in a Castle Doctrine state you're still potentially up for a shitshow.
When it hits the news that Laquecious was shot breaking into your house, his mother is going to lose her shit - the media is going to run the video of her crying about how he was turning his life around...... BLM is going to picket in front your house, you're going to lose your job...... etc.
But if his dead body is found downstream 2 weeks later - the police are going to issue a statement saying Laquecious Smith was known to law enforcement and had ties to known drug dealers and other criminal elements. The cause of his death is unknown at this time.
And it will remain unknown. As long as everybody keeps their mouth shut.
cathouse01
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And as Shakespeare said “Aye, there’s the rub”. Even living out in the country like I do (my nearest neighbor is 1/4 mile away) it’s amazing what the neighbors hear and ask questions about. You’re also assuming that old Laquecious was acting on his own and didn’t have a buddy outside that you didn’t see. Nope, as far as I’m concerned, the only time you should shoot is when you are truly in fear for your life. And in that case you won’t be worrying about the legal implications of your actions, you’ll just be trying to stay alive.
Yes - there's the rub.
Living out in the country though (this is suburbia) - in my experience it's less noisy so when something really loud happens - it's actually worse than here in suburbia. Like I said - I hear noises relatively frequently that might well be a gunshot. The wife and I will be like "what the hell was that?" . Then go back to doing whatever we were doing. I don't see the cops cruising the street afterwards looking for the source of the noise.
Probably the biggest exposure is the 2nd guy in the car thing you mentioned. That guy is going to boogie once he hears a gunshot go off in the house - or after Laquecious doesn't come back to the car after 15 minutes. Then he's going to talk to *somebody* after the body turns up in the river.
But even then I'd say - that's when you just start denying shit if..... IF somebody shows up.
My main point here is that reality - and the shit you see on TV - are worlds apart from each other. Go look up the crime stats. A LARGE number of murders don't get solved. And that's largely because the people who get murdered are scumbags and nobody wants to spend tax dollars investigating.
one-eyed Jack
Manufacturer
I love it when company comes. If my daddy shot someone who came to visit, he'd have a lot of 'splanin to do. Megan.
KMM696
NES Member
Megan types better than I do - beak or claws?
Nick Fury
NES Member
Best post is here. Most of this thread is just fodder…
Laws mean virtually nothing. Look at the last two years.
What about the legally carrying security guy who capped the perp trying to murder his doctor? They tried to throw the book at him.
Even in NH the guy who shot a dog killing his chickens got his life ruined. All laws on his side and I think he did some time.
one-eyed Jack
Manufacturer
Either or. I do have to remember to go into my cage and take a dump first and am limited to 10 minutes on the keyboard. Daddy is so afraid that I will shit on it, but somehow tends to forget that he ruined one himself by dumping a martini into it. Megan.
StevieP
NES Member
I've taken too many firearms and hunting safety classes.
Best advice I've seen on this topic is that this is what you say to the responding officers:
"They forced me shoot to stop the threat."
And then you ask for your lawyer and STFU.
Best advice I've seen on this topic is that this is what you say to the responding officers:
"They forced me shoot to stop the threat."
And then you ask for your lawyer and STFU.
Quite_Exasperated
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LEOs are not lawyers. I know they do a tough job, but acknowledging errors is not a strong suit..
Also, LEOs not knowing the law is precisely why the federales meet with an AUSA BEFORE making an arrest. The DOJ wants to understand the alleged crime, code violation, probable cause, evidence, perps, etc. AUSA‘s don’t like to lose or be made a fool of. Local LEOs aren’t afforded that luxury since they often have to make immediate judgement calls. You have to respect them but they are human after all.
AHM
NES Member
Old and Busted: Shoot/Shovel/Shut-Up
The New Hotness: Shoot/Shovel/Stump Fence/Shut-Up
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Quite_Exasperated
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Give the phone the Tom Brady treatment and your computers the Hillary treatment.
Wrong. Best advice is to STFU and say absolutely nothing. Only your name. Anything in addition to your name is f*cking stupid.
Leave it to gun owners to over complicate things.
While not gun related, it applies to every situation when the PoPo starts asking questions:
Burn this in your brain.
View: https://youtu.be/sgWHrkDX35o
And give the cops the mushroom treatment:
Keep them in the dark and feed them (jack) shit.
FrugalFannie
NES Member
what "you" forgot to report is that as he was fleeing he shouted he was going to get a gun and 3 buddies and come back and kill you and rape your wife and your dog
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