There goes private transfers...

FiremanBob

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Yes, I figured some people would misread what I wrote. I didn't blame the seller, so don't lie about what I wrote. I did say, and do say, that what he did was recklessly stupid. I provided an example of "reasonable investigation" by describing how sellers on the VA gun board handle the due diligence question, without being required to by law but out of respect for their own reputations.

Since when did "following the law", the lowest possible standard of good conduct, become the gold standard of decent behavior among men? Or is it so merely among men of low standards?
 

GomerPile

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Tell that to the gun hating DA when your gun is used to shoot up a room full of school kids. They won’t care if you get convicted or not, bankrupting you with legal bills achieves the same goals as prison.

You are protected by the law that already exists. It is 100% legal to sell privately, provided you don't know they are a felon. You are not required to know they are a felon.
 

PennyPincher

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Yes, I figured some people would misread what I wrote. I didn't blame the seller, so don't lie about what I wrote. I did say, and do say, that what he did was recklessly stupid. I provided an example of "reasonable investigation" by describing how sellers on the VA gun board handle the due diligence question, without being required to by law but out of respect for their own reputations.

Since when did "following the law", the lowest possible standard of good conduct, become the gold standard of decent behavior among men? Or is it so merely among men of low standards?
In TX the only law to sell privately would be the federal law which requires you be resident of the same state. But I don't know of any "standard of investigation" to ensure that is the case. If I meet someone at a range and we start talking. Maybe next week I see that person again and we talk about selling a gun. A week later we get in touch and he rides up in a car with a TX license plate. I sell him the gun. Was I reckless? Should I have "done more due diligence?" If you think that something should be required of me as a private seller than you can try and change the law but don't expect me to go beyond the letter of the law so that you "feel " better about private sales.

Different states have different laws. NH says you must personally know the person or see a P&R for them. But what if I personally know you but don't know you are a felon? What if you used to live in MA and had a DUI 10 years ago? Why would I be required to know that makes you a PP while you are living in NH now?
 

Varmint

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In TX the only law to sell privately would be the federal law which requires you be resident of the same state. But I don't know of any "standard of investigation" to ensure that is the case. If I meet someone at a range and we start talking. Maybe next week I see that person again and we talk about selling a gun. A week later we get in touch and he rides up in a car with a TX license plate. I sell him the gun. Was I reckless? Should I have "done more due diligence?" If you think that something should be required of me as a private seller than you can try and change the law but don't expect me to go beyond the letter of the law so that you "feel " better about private sales.

Different states have different laws. NH says you must personally know the person or see a P&R for them. But what if I personally know you but don't know you are a felon? What if you used to live in MA and had a DUI 10 years ago? Why would I be required to know that makes you a PP while you are living in NH now?
If you are too dangerous to own a gun, you should not be walking around the street. Either arrest the guy or let him have his constitutional rights.
 
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In TX the only law to sell privately would be the federal law which requires you be resident of the same state. But I don't know of any "standard of investigation" to ensure that is the case. If I meet someone at a range and we start talking. Maybe next week I see that person again and we talk about selling a gun. A week later we get in touch and he rides up in a car with a TX license plate. I sell him the gun. Was I reckless? Should I have "done more due diligence?" If you think that something should be required of me as a private seller than you can try and change the law but don't expect me to go beyond the letter of the law so that you "feel " better about private sales.

Different states have different laws. NH says you must personally know the person or see a P&R for them. But what if I personally know you but don't know you are a felon? What if you used to live in MA and had a DUI 10 years ago? Why would I be required to know that makes you a PP while you are living in NH now?
To be accurate NH says that for handguns, all other guns is moot, ie legal for private sale provided you do not know something to the contrary about such person.
 

drgrant

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Morally, the seller deserves a severe beating. You have to be an idiot to sell a firearm to someone you don't know without doing a reasonable investigation of him.
Uhm, like namely, so what the f*** do you want the seller to do? Conduct a background check that he has no facility to do so with? In lots of normal states people aren't morons and don't treat a gun any differently than they would a lawnmower, circular saw or any other tool. Investigation? With what? You want someone to pay an investigator like $500-$1000 or more before doing a gun sale, to "investigate" someone? Or are you basically suggesting he should have used an FFL and ate the transfer fee? (because private sales are legal, most buyers are reluctant to pay any kind of a transfer fee ). Or are you suggesting the seller should only sell to people with a carry permit (but even this really isn't a "hot" background check, its easy for a person to have a carry license that's facially valid but would not withstand a renewal; authorities don't go out and check peoples BG every day and then come and seize the carry license if you're suddenly out of compliance. I want to say Kansas or some state like that does annual "hot" background checks on carry license holders via NICS or something, but they are the exception rather than the rule. ) Regardless that's a bogus requirement, given a lot of people buy guns that do not or cannot carry anyways.

Would you say the same thing if he unknowingly sold a car to a functional alcoholic? And then a week later the buyer drives the car down the wrong side of the road and kills a bus full of nuns because he was sauced? Of course not- why- because hopefully you're not going to apply retard logic like an anti does, to a motor vehicle despite the fact that it basically got used as a deadly weapon against innocent people!

Oh, I hear it now "but mike this is about guns and joe public doesn't see it that way cuz guns are for killin! ".... well guess what, when gun owners start treating "guns as being special and extra killy" in what I would call contexts and spaces where they certainly shouldn't be treated as such, eventually the retard joe public perception becomes reality, and we end up digging our own grave on that front. Why give the antis a free space by allowing THEM to
define that? This country existed for like over 2 centuries, during the most of which, there was little or no gun
control in most places wrt the buying and selling of guns, and somehow, only since like, the 60s or so, did "problems" seem to arise where firearms were used in "sensational" crimes. Somehow I think this trend has
very little to do with guns, and a lot to do with everything else that nobody wants to talk about.

Even if the assertion is true, and this guy drove around the background check, I have a few points to lay out with
that...

-This shows the overall futility of forcing a background check vs trying to stop a criminal act. Bad people will actively seek out to circumvent such checks until they succeed. Hell this has been going on since columbine, those two kids used straw buyers and bought guns illegally from people that should have known better, etc. One of the sellers even went to jail over it, too. Laws and background checks might clean up some of the mess afterwards but
they're not going to effectively stop anything.

-Most guns used in crimes didn't come from an otherwise legal private sale. Even if we look at the last dozen or so mass shootings, most of the guns were procured lawfully at least at the time of sale. Things like columbine or this incident (if true) where the perp drove around the blockade tend to be the exception rather than the rule. Nobody brings this up though because it's "uncomfortable" to talk about how background checks are so great, yet mass shooter perps seem to pass background checks all the time.... because they don't want to be forced to admit that they're talking about "improving something that's already been shown time and time again to NOT WORK. "

-The overwhelming majority of guns sold privately in the US between same state residents don't end up being used
in sensationalist crimes. Hell the overwhelming majority of guns period sold in the US lawfully don't end up being used in crimes period. I think everyone loses sight of this. In the not too distant future if the pols keep pushing buttons the guns per capita will easily exceed a 1 : 1 ratio if it hasn't already. And yet despite having the most guns in private hands we are far from the most violent country, particularly once you get past the urban shithole
areas which take up like maybe 5% of the land mass in the US.

In VA, where private sales are commonplace and the state's gun trading website for private sales is very active, the standard proviso in FS ads is "VA license and CHP" (also known as "good guy papers") required.
Probably because that's very likely what the LAW says YOU HAVE TO DO there... Much like in NH RSA 159, a PR license is required BY LAW to sell a handgun to a person not otherwise personally known to you. Nobody is requiring that shit for the hell of it "because it feels good morally" or any BS like that. They require it because it's
the law, and the cost of non-compliance is likely high.

-Mike
 
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Personally I think its crazy a citizen cant run a NICS check - we pay for the freakin thing and it would "solve" the whole private sale disagreement. No paperwork, no tracking, just a go/no-go ID for private sales. Id agree to that...

I do not agree with having to walk into an FFL and pay a fee, paperwork etc for a private sale. Or to get a permit to excercise a right, thats BS too.
 
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What loophole are Chicago gangbangers using to get their guns?
Allegedly, Indiana...at least according to sources quoted by the heinous moonbat bitch of a mayor Lori Lightfoot.

Talk about lack of accountability...blaming the enormous levels of gang related violence/murder on a neighboring state.

If any of her bullshit were true, Indianapolis should be twice as bad as shithole Chicago, right?
 

upcountry

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OK, the following idea was mentioned to me.
I don't have the ability, by law, to run a NICS as a private seller.
So if I'm selling a gun to a guy I don't know I have created a bill of sale. On that document I record the date, serial number, etc, and also record at least two forms of ID, preferably photo ID:
an LTC (if a handgun), a driver's license with name, address, DOB, DL license number etc and another confirming ID. I would then have a record of the buyer. If the buyer is reluctant, alarm bells go off and I refuse to sell. Thoughts? Is this a good practice in general? Does this cover my butt (more than not doing it)?

If I sell a vehicle there is a documented record through the state, DMV, etc., but it's not demanded that I run a BGC to see his DUI, reckless driving record first and if he is not a "prohibited driver".
 
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And BTW the reason they rarely ever prosecute for attempts to buy by prohibited persons is probably because often those checks were false denials, ie person is legal to own a gun and the system failed again.. same reason they wont provide a simple & fast way to appeal them, it would show the system is a joke.
 
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Personally I think its crazy a citizen cant run a NICS check - we pay for the freakin thing and it would "solve" the whole private sale disagreement. No paperwork, no tracking, just a go/no-go ID for private sales. Id agree to that...

I do not agree with having to walk into an FFL and pay a fee, paperwork etc for a private sale. Or to get a permit to excercise a right, thats BS too.
They're understaffed as is...not trying to pick a fight, but where the heck are the resources going to come from to support thousands more transactions every day? Plus, it'll make it so you'll only be able to sell guns at certain hours of the day...I've bought a few guns outside of 'normal business hours' for gun shops, and I'll be damned if I'd want the .gov telling me when/where I can/cannot purchase firearms.
 
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What the police ought to do is take a pile of confiscated guns, put them up on Armslist at decent prices and see who shows - good guy gets the gun if he wants it, bad guy gets a charge that sticks. Would curb any use of that avenue by the bad guys quick.
 
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If I sell a vehicle there is a documented record through the state, DMV, etc., but it's not demanded that I run a BGC to see his DUI, reckless driving record first and if he is not a "prohibited driver".
Because you can't use a CAR to prevent a tyrannical government!!!

None of these cuckold politicians give a single solitary shit about any of the victims of any of these shootings. They want CONTROL. PERIOD.

Only one way to make that happen, and it AINT gonna happen to me. I'll die in a pile of brass waist deep before I let anyone take my personal property.
 
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They're understaffed as is...not trying to pick a fight, but where the heck are the resources going to come from to support thousands more transactions every day? Plus, it'll make it so you'll only be able to sell guns at certain hours of the day...I've bought a few guns outside of 'normal business hours' for gun shops, and I'll be damned if I'd want the .gov telling me when/where I can/cannot purchase firearms.
I can't imagine private sales even amount to the 20% of sales the nazi's tell us they do. Most likely itd be a marginal change if anything, most guns do come from FFLs.
 

drgrant

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Tell that to the gun hating DA when your gun is used to shoot up a room full of school kids. They won’t care if you get convicted or not, bankrupting you with legal bills achieves the same goals as prison.
Well, they can't punish based on laws that don't exist, but they will go after people on technicalities. For example some guy that sold one of the columbine kids a gun got bagged because the seller was underage to buy a handgun (I think it was a tec 9 or something) privately in colorado. So they threw the guy in jail for a year on a dumb technicality. Of course it depends on the DA and the optics, and likely how proximate the sale was to the crime.

And BTW the reason they rarely ever prosecute for attempts to buy by prohibited persons is probably because often those checks were false denials, ie person is legal to own a gun and the system failed again.. same reason they wont provide a simple & fast way to appeal them, it would show the system is a joke.
Yes, it is worth noting that there's some 5 digit number of NICS falses every year, for those interested, look it up in the NICS operating report, it's a pretty huge number of fail.... The only time the cops get called from a true denial is if NICS pings on an open felony/fugitive warrant or something like that, which is rare. Otherwise they just don't care, it's just a deny or delay > deny.

-Mike
 

drgrant

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I can't imagine private sales even amount to the 20% of sales the nazi's tell us they do. Most likely itd be a marginal change if anything, most guns do come from FFLs.
It's probably somewhere in the single digits of %, but some of it is unknowable. Despite BATFE generally being "anti gun" overall, some of the stats they released on gun trace recoveries are pretty telling. Most crime based gun traces end up going to straws that went through an FFL at one point, and after that it's stolen firearms, but a much smaller number than straws. (a pattern seems to exist where women who date scumbags, and drug addicts without criminal records, get used as straw mules) Tropes like "private sales" and "gun shows" (in any context) being sources of crime guns are largely mythical. They are inconsequential compared to retail gun shop straw buys and guns procured from acts of theft.

-Mike
 

drgrant

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Because you can't use a CAR to prevent a tyrannical government!!!

None of these cuckold politicians give a single solitary shit about any of the victims of any of these shootings. They want CONTROL. PERIOD.

Only one way to make that happen, and it AINT gonna happen to me. I'll die in a pile of brass waist deep before I let anyone take my personal property.
This, but I can also tell you this right now... I could write up a 2 page background check system that would be minimally invasive, better than NICS (less falsing, little to no downtime, 24/7/365 availability and support) and self-servicing and allow for enormous levels of data privacy, no fears of confiscation databases, etc. You could develop an incredible system like that. (similar to the BIDS system someone hypothesized). One far more effective than NICS ever was, and better to gun owners buyers, dealers, etc to boot. It could even be mostly NOT run by the government, only using them as a data source by agreement, you could probably fund it by stealing money from ATF/FBI budget and maybe pittman-robertson money already taxed on gun owners. Mind you- this system would still be an infringement, but it would be far less infringing than the current NICS system, which effectively violates people's 2A rights in a gratuitous manner.

The problem is, even if we could do all this- IT WOULD NOT MATTER. The antis wouldn't give a flying f*** about how good it is. Because even a system which stopped more bad people, and falsed far less than NICS, still wouldn't do jack shit to the actual crime rate. We've seen time and time again how criminals do not care about gun laws, regardless of what they are. We've also seen how antis act, too- I mean look at Vermont. One of the safest states in the country WRT violent crime- and still the antis push more bullshit. They will not stop. The only way to ever stop these pieces of shit is over time, possibly they can be marginalized. Until we get them to be socially unacceptable as neo nazis or Level 3 sex offenders, they're always going to be causing us problems.....

-Mike
 

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From an article about the Midland shooter and the guy who sold him the rifle,
“Authorities believe the man was illegally buying parts to guns, assembling a single firearm and then reselling it, the Journal reported.”

Sounds like he wouldn’t have been bothered with running a mandatory background check if that was required.
 
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I can't imagine private sales even amount to the 20% of sales the nazi's tell us they do. Most likely itd be a marginal change if anything, most guns do come from FFLs.
I think you're wrong...but I definitely don't have any evidence to back that up.

I'd bet that private sales are at least equal to, if not 2x the amount that go through dealers in the age of the internet and great freedom loving forums like this...maybe not those kind of numbers in MA, but country wide?

Even without the internet...there's still boatloads of places where good ol' horse trading is a way of life and sometimes the only way to get what you need. People around here have lost their way is what has you convinced that private sales don't exist on a large scale.

MA is not a microcosm of how things operate in America...it is it's own little island of self loathing...surrounded by neighboring islands with similar situations but all their own flavor of shit sandwich (except for those still holding on tight in NH and ME, of course).
 

42!

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I'm still stuck on that he tried to buy a gun in 2014, lying on a 4472. But the system worked and he was denied.
But shouldn't a mentally ill person trying to buy a gun have gotten someone's attention? I would think this is just the kind of mentally ill person that should be confined. The system was designed to catch someone like this. Someone wasn't doing their job.
 

drgrant

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I think you're wrong...but I definitely don't have any evidence to back that up.

I'd bet that private sales are at least equal to, if not 2x the amount that go through dealers in the age of the internet and great freedom loving forums like this...maybe not those kind of numbers in MA, but country wide?

Even without the internet...there's still boatloads of places where good ol' horse trading is a way of life and sometimes the only way to get what you need. People around here have lost their way is what has you convinced that private sales don't exist on a large scale.
He's not saying that private sales don't happen, they certainly do, but from seeing what I've seen in the industry
I'd be more apt to agree with him wrt volume. As an example, I just went on Armslist and looked in NH, and turned off the vendor switch thing to take out the FFLs. I turned on "Glock" under a search and it comes up
with 37 guns that are private sales. About 2/3rds of the guns listed are either overpriced, odd configurations, or junk nobody wants. If I was taking the point of view of an NH resident why would I want to deal with sifting
through trash when I can just call my dealer up, see if he has X, get a cash price, and then figure out when I'm going to pick it up? Not saying private sales don't have their place, but from a convenience aspect they kinda suck, even
if the buyer and seller are great people, you still end up doing stuff like making compromises to make the deal
work, eg for example on more than one occasion on a private buy/sell I had to take time off from work to make the buy/sale go easiest vs waiting for the other guys schedule to get better. That kind of thing. On the other hand if I am using a dealer I can just go "Hey, Mr. LGS buddy, can you get me an XYZ and then I can come pick it up next saturday? " "sure mike no problemo, it'll be here I'll txt you when it arrives. ". Time cost, etc.

Oddly I think a lot of private sales get facilitated by dealers, though, too. For example you buy a gun off a remote non dealer on gunbroker- I don't care what state you live in, it's probably coming through a dealer unless the guy is a resident of the same state you are, etc. Or a lot of people consign guns and the dealer sells the gun and takes
a cut, etc.

WRT the "MA jaundice" factor, if anything, I think MA has an above average amount of private sales because of the legal BS/AG BS here. Dealers have their hands tied on a lot of things that private sellers do not, etc, and the price retention of some guns because of the fake market here in MA makes it more appealing to conduct a private
sale.

-Mike
 

drgrant

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But shouldn't a mentally ill person trying to buy a gun have gotten someone's attention? I would think this is just the kind of mentally ill person that should be confined.
Part of it is NICS falses so f***ing much that they don't want to spend the money/resources to investigate every
denial. The feds would have to hire thousands of agents just to do that.

The system was designed to catch someone like this.
Maybe in intent, but not in reality. The integrity of the results is "possibly maybe" and there's a lot of errors which
create false positives. For example some guy will get an expungement and despite the court honoring
it, it doesn't get processed correctly and there's a data gap. Then the feds only have made a decision
based on crap, old data..... and that's just the tip of the iceberg. I don't think that kind of error requires a guy
with a gun showing up at his doorstep to straighten it out.

Let's put it in these terms. In the 2017 NICS operating report there were like 30,000+ appealed denials (and uPin applications) of which like 3,977 were overturned on appeal. (although the abandonment rate in the process isn't shown, EG, potentially way more could be overturned but I would guess people just get frustrated with the process and say "f*** it" and just stopped bothering their jousting session with NICS... ).

Even if we averaged them out by month, that's a shitload of people for agents to manually investigate, and then either arrest or clear them. Good luck with that.... in terms of cost or doing it efficiently both are a non starter. That's part of the reason the feds don't bother investigating every denial, they are hoping people will just go away
so they don't have to waste time on them anymore.... They do hit the warrant or fugitive ones though because
those are an easy kill, and a lot of those aren't the feds problems anyways. On the other hand, can you think of
the resources wasted if every person who perjured themselves on a 4473 was arrested for doing so? It would be a total shit show and many of the USAs/AUSAs wouldn't even want to prosecute those cases because of the public
backlash... (not to mention "reasonable person" difficulties with the jury). I'm sure it would look great on their "score card" for busting an 80 year old guy/lady who got bagged doing something dumb like selling pot as a dealer in the 60s, and now is just trying to buy a gun to protect her home with...

-Mike
 

Zappa

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Here is a very cool debate point from Denninger (And There You Are... No Laws Would Change This) when confronted by the anti's:

This guy tried to buy a gun in 2014 and was denied due to mental health issues. That means he lied on the 4473 form but was never prosecuted...why not?
Not defending this guy, but that's not always the case.
It's not a lie if you believe it to be true.
Case in point, a friend of mine got a denial, for something he didn't even know about.
His ex-wife put a temporary restraining order on him 24 years ago, he thought it had expired.
He hasn't seen her in over 20 years, she lives in FL while he's in NH, and he has made several gun purchases since.
All of a sudden, he gets denied. Something having to do with that old restraining order popped-up and raised a flag.
He had to go to the courthouse in Cambridge to straighten it out, but it was their screwup, not his.
 

nstassel

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A UBC system will result in prohibited criminals murdering civilian gun sellers too. Something to consider. Outside of sales too. Burglaries will become worse. Gun owners will be targeted when they leave clubs. The serious criminals will always get guns.
 

Super99Z

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I'm still stuck on that he tried to buy a gun in 2014, lying on a 4472. But the system worked and he was denied.
But shouldn't a mentally ill person trying to buy a gun have gotten someone's attention? I would think this is just the kind of mentally ill person that should be confined. The system was designed to catch someone like this. Someone wasn't doing their job.
Come on man, the gov doesn't give a shit about protecting us, they just want our money.
 

n1oty

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I really hate to write this. The guy who sold him the firearm may not have committed a crime, but was reckless in making the sale to someone he did not know. ATF rules say you can make the sale UNLESS you have reason to believe the buyer is prohibited by law from possessing firearms. From the standpoint of our rights, that's the correct legal policy. Maximum freedom, presumption of innocence.

Morally, the seller deserves a severe beating. You have to be an idiot to sell a firearm to someone you don't know without doing a reasonable investigation of him. In VA, where private sales are commonplace and the state's gun trading website for private sales is very active, the standard proviso in FS ads is "VA license and CHP" (also known as "good guy papers") required.

None of this should be interpreted as interpreting more .gov action. If an armed citizen had been at the right place at the right time, the murderer would have been stopped. If enough people can be expected to be carrying in any given place, the perps might realize the odds are heavily against them and not try at all. So part of the solution to the problem of mass murders is more widespread bearing of arms by our citizens. An armed society is a polite society.

The problem with your post is that you are looking at this through the lens of YOUR experience, where Virginia has already become a lefty state and everyone covers themselves with the "papers please" response. Much of the American heartland that is away from each coast has no "papers" to begin with. They do not have the paperwork to begin with. And they are happy with that.
 

enbloc

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I wonder how Americans sold guns before all these laws? Or, were people just not crazy then?

Would Joe, the owner of the sundries shop not sell "Crazy Wyatt" a Winchester and ammo because "That guy is nuts!" Nope, all he would ask was "Cash or Credit Mr Wyatt?" and try not to set him off...
 
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FiremanBob

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The problem with your post is that you are looking at this through the lens of YOUR experience, where Virginia has already become a lefty state and everyone covers themselves with the "papers please" response. Much of the American heartland that is away from each coast has no "papers" to begin with. They do not have the paperwork to begin with. And they are happy with that.
The problem with your post, and Mike's above, is that you don't know what you're talking about. The behavior of sellers on the board, and private sellers I know from several clubs there, pre-dates VA's going purple. And there is no state law requiring papers or inquiry on private sales. It's the same standard as ATF: sale is only prohibited if you have reason to believe the buyer is prohibited.

If you don't know the bona fides of your buyer, how do you know he won't rob you of your gun when you meet him to complete the sale?
 
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