The unofficial ultimate why is 40 S&W so hated MEGATHREAD!!!!

[EJFudd]

The 40 caliber by S&W will be rebranded/reimagined/relaunched as 10mm Kurz by H&K and then it will be a the 'hot' caliber again.

I've said all along that the only thing wrong with the .40 S&W is that they named it wrong. Had someone else (not S&W) thought it up and named it the "10mm Kurz" (or any other better-conceived marketing name with "10mm" in it), it would still be wildly popular today, snappy as Hell or not. Marketing is everything and it should have been marketed as the 10mm round designed specifically for carry.

 

[Parker Schreiber]

.357 Sig was the original special caliber attempt for autoloaders to sell to the highway patrol market. .40 S&W only became a thing because of the FBI setting a standard the rest of law enforcement followed like lemmings.

.40 predates .357 Sig by about three years.

 

[Bigfudge16]

I've said all along that the only thing wrong with the .40 S&W is that they named it wrong. Had someone else (not S&W) thought it up and named it the "10mm Kurz" (or any other better-conceived marketing name with "10mm" in it), it would still be wildly popular today, snappy as Hell or not. Marketing is everything and it should have been marketed as the 10mm round designed specifically for carry.

I disagree. Knee jerk reaction from me but i'd be more likely to buy a "brand new" cartridge than one thats been admittedly toned down for carry purpose. Just me though.

 

[nordic alien]

So here it is. The one stop shopping as to why everyone hates 40 S&W. Some hate it, some loath it, some think is verbotem, some think it's gay and some just despise everything about it. Then again, there are a few on NES that like the caliber. Where do you stand and why?

Saw a newbie asking and now we have a thread for all newbies to know why NES hates 40 S&W!

Have at it!

have 2 40 pistols and a ar carbine conversion; 40 out of a rifle hits as hard as 10 mm out of a handgun. always liked the cartridge. wish i could get a ruger 10mm/ 40 conversion blackhawk in this state. never liked the 9mm; have a glock 26 as a beach gun, and two classics; a old browning hi power and a s&w model 39 and that is the only reason to own a 9mm. due to flack i have stated before: the one thing more gay than a 9mm is duran duran

 

[LakeTrout]

22LR recoil is way lower and thus much better for quick follow up shots, plus magazines can hold way more rounds than 9mm. 22LR is so much cheaper and there are infinitely more ammo options on the market vs. 9mm. In a self defense scenario I'd rather have the round count than the bigger but harder to manage cartridge.

Oh wait- this is a .40 thread?

The point is that the 40 doesn’t give measurable performance over the 9mm to account for all of the negatives. The performance of the 9mm outweighs the negatives in your comparison between it and 22lr.

 

[ThePreBanMan]

I like the caliber... more punch than a 9mm. In a magazine restricted state I would rather 10 rounds of 40 over 10 rounds of 9mm or 8 rounds of .45.



I like it. I'll continue to shoot it, and am even looking to buy a new gun chambered for it...

 

[drgrant]

I've said all along that the only thing wrong with the .40 S&W is that they named it wrong. Had someone else (not S&W) thought it up and named it the "10mm Kurz" (or any other better-conceived marketing name with "10mm" in it), it would still be wildly popular today, snappy as Hell or not. Marketing is everything and it should have been marketed as the 10mm round designed specifically for carry.

The problem is not the name

The problem is that it was a dumb idea intended to fix a problem that didnt exist, the entire justification for the cartridge was based on junk science.

The secondary problem was because of that stupid f***ing AWB the 40 basically fueled the shitlogic of "bweaaaauuuh efyffff eyeme gonna cawwy onwee 10 wounds it mita well be a bigger bullat!" (groaning retard accent).

 

[paul73]

and named it the "10mm Kurz"

a '10mm fab'.
for 'fabulous'

 

[AJK129]

a '10mm fab'.
for 'fabulous'

1cm junk?

 

[drgrant]

Im willing to bet most of you wouldn't volunteer to stand in front of a pistol shooting it.

Can we all just let this one particular trope die though? For the love of christ? its like logic borne from rock smashing bog sniffing troglodytes or something.

Like I hear this a lot, regardless of caliber. and it usually involves someone trying to justify carrying something that sucks infinitely more than a 40, though.

I don't want to stand in front of someone shooting a .25 ACP or even one of those little french pinfire guns that shoots something smaller, even though its quite obviously a cartridge that would be a shitty choice for carry (but it still kills shitloads of people, but that doesnt mean its a great idea to lean on it for self defense).

It just comes off as like an EV owner going "you wouldnt stand in front of this car!" really?

 

[Fleshwound]

I think the 40 S&W was just a new cartridge like anything else out there. Law Enforcement used them and everyone bought in. Then the 357 Sig. Back in the late 90's early 2000's, 40 cal was all I bought. Period. However, the 9mm market blew up with lots of different options weights, and velocities. Softer shooting, more rounds per mag, many people went back to the 9mm If they wanted a 4 in their gun, it was a 45acp. I recently sold a G23, minty, took me months to sell it on here for 550. You've got to admit, ammo is much like pistols. Excitement about the brand rises and falls. Chances are, the 40 will come back in a while and we will all kick ourselves in the ass.

 

[drgrant]

You've got to admit, ammo is much like pistols. Excitement about the brand rises and falls. Chances are, the 40 will come back in a while and we will all kick ourselves in the ass.

No, it won't. .40 got lucky like a fat annoying chick at a bar where all the dudes there had beer goggles on. Some to this day are still drunk, you can see it in this thread, everyone else sobered up and moved on.

But conversley, its not going anywhere either, it is basically like that smelly fart that gets trapped in someones office and doesnt want to dissipate, you go back in the guys office 10 minutes later and you can still smell it. The existing base of guns is so large that a nice die-off event is improbable.

Hell even Glock still believes in it to some degree, having redesigned the gen 5 22/23 to be more appropriate for .40. If they thought it was a dead end they wouldn't have done
that. There are still enough weirdo agencies that run 40, apparently.

40's not going anywhere. Like a bad case of herpes.

 

[Mountain]

The point is that the 40 doesn’t give measurable performance over the 9mm to account for all of the negatives. The performance of the 9mm outweighs the negatives in your comparison between it and 22lr.

I'm just picking on the usual arguments against 40.

A self defense measure I like is wound channel volume. A comparison of typical Federal JHP's for each caliber demonstrates a 28% increase in wound channel volume for 40 vs. 9mm. For me that's a measurable improvement of significance. I'll use either caliber depending upon the situation, but this is a measure that definitely pokes a hole in the 40 hate.

 

[drgrant]

A self defense measure I like is wound channel volume. A comparison of typical Federal JHP's for each caliber demonstrates a 28% increase in wound channel volume for 40 vs. 9mm. For me that's a measurable improvement of significance. I'll use either caliber depending upon the situation, but this is a measure that definitely pokes a hole in the 40 hate.

Does it produce a statistical improvement in stopping someone, though? Most data shows a wash between the big three.

And yes, it "gives that fuzzy feeling" I get it. Like the same way 357 sig and 10mm do when they have so much juice it cracks the wooden plank under the gel block...

 

[paul73]

1cm junk?

heh. it is a old reference now... from 'will and grace' - 'baby`s first fabulous'. wife loved watching it.

 

[Horatio_Alger_Jr]

 

[paul73]

View attachment 718181

ahh, good old times.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-DJ45iQZyk&t=18s

 

[LakeTrout]

I'm just picking on the usual arguments against 40.

A self defense measure I like is wound channel volume. A comparison of typical Federal JHP's for each caliber demonstrates a 28% increase in wound channel volume for 40 vs. 9mm. For me that's a measurable improvement of significance. I'll use either caliber depending upon the situation, but this is a measure that definitely pokes a hole in the 40 hate.

You know more than I do about wound channel volume. I used to think like that too though which is why I went with 45 over 40 and 9mm. But then it seemed like there wasn’t real world data supporting wound channel volume as being a great factor in determining who wins the fight. So I switched to 9mm which seems to have the same effectiveness but greater firepower and faster to get back in target.

 

[LTCRN]

The Buick O' Truth #1 - Windshields Inside/Out

People often wonder and debate about cars and how they react to being shot with various types of weapons and ammunition. The best way to find out the answer to those various car-related shooting questions is to actually shoot some cars. First, let's consider a situation sometimes faced by...

www.theboxotruth.com

The shooting through a windshield testing needs to be redone! The stolen car of choice is no longer a Buick or Cadillac, it's an Accord or Camry!

No, it won't. .40 got lucky like a fat annoying chick at a bar where all the dudes there had beer goggles on. Some to this day are still drunk, you can see it in this thread, everyone else sobered up and moved on.

But conversley, its not going anywhere either, it is basically like that smelly fart that gets trapped in someones office and doesnt want to dissipate, you go back in the guys office 10 minutes later and you can still smell it. The existing base of guns is so large that a nice die-off event is improbable.

Hell even Glock still believes in it to some degree, having redesigned the gen 5 22/23 to be more appropriate for .40. If they thought it was a dead end they wouldn't have done
that. There are still enough weirdo agencies that run 40, apparently.

40's not going anywhere. Like a bad case of herpes.

I never liked working in an office type setting. I was forced to for about a week because I was told I was a member of the management team. I quietly left and went back to my other "office" where I belonged. Your statement solidifies my reasoning why it is a terrible workplace setting!

I'm sure out in Berkshire, Coos, or Carroll County, there are some PD's still using .40 because they are to strapped for cash to buy newer pistols.

 

[EJFudd]

I disagree. Knee jerk reaction from me but i'd be more likely to buy a "brand new" cartridge than one thats been admittedly toned down for carry purpose. Just me though.

I didn't mean toned down for carry purposes as in making it less effective. I meant shortened a bit to fit into smaller guns like my CS40 and other smaller framed pistols. Funny how the 9mm Kurz doesn't get made fun of, but the 10mm Kurz does. Weird world.

 

[Marty McFly]

1cm junk?

40 super carry?

 

[Mesatchornug]

I didn't mean toned down for carry purposes as in making it less effective. I meant shortened a bit to fit into smaller guns like my CS40 and other smaller framed pistols. Funny how the 9mm Kurz doesn't get made fun of, but the 10mm Kurz does. Weird world.

it doesn't?

I mean, maybe not on the same level, but everyone (here) talks about it as being nothing but a compromise cartridge. They claim its only value is in micro-pistols. "Why would anyone want that in a compact pistol, when they can have real 9mm?"

 

[EJFudd]

The entire justification for the cartridge was based on junk science.

Can you elaborate on that point? I must be missing something. Mister Coyle's short essay on the subject is a hoot to be sure (and made me laugh so hard I snorted my coffee the first time I read it), but based on junk science? Really?

I will agree with you that the 10-round magazine limit pushed a lot of people toward the 10mm Kurz round who had no business going there.

 

[EJFudd]

it doesn't?

I mean, maybe not on the same level, but everyone (here) talks about it as being nothing but a compromise cartridge. They claim its only value is in micro-pistols. "Why would anyone want that in a compact pistol, when they can have real 9mm?"

Well, first let's remember that NES is a world onto itself and does not necessarily reflect the opinions of real people leading real lives.

But that said, you are making my point for me. The (9mm Kurz) round is a smaller round made to fit smaller framed guns.

And yes, while smaller framed 9mm pistols have entered the market, they still aren't as small and concealable as the smallest of the 9mm Kurz guns.

 

[drgrant]

Can you elaborate on that point? I must be missing something. Mister Coyle's short essay on the subject is a hoot to be sure (and made me laugh so hard I snorted my coffee the first time I read it), but based on junk science? Really?

I will agree with you that the 10-round magazine limit pushed a lot of people toward the 10mm Kurz round who had no business going there.

The FBI and others went on chasing unicorns after FL, based on a perceived problem with their existing gun/caliber choices… and in the long game they realized they overreacted to the “problem” based on a poor understanding of handgun wound ballistics based off deeply flawed data and studies.

….and now we’re back here, with most pds dumping 40 for either 45 or 9mm….

 

[Mesatchornug]

Well, first let's remember that NES is a world onto itself and does not necessarily reflect the opinions of real people leading real lives.

But that said, you are making my point for me. The (9mm Kurz) round is a smaller round made to fit smaller framed guns.

And yes, while smaller framed 9mm pistols have entered the market, they still aren't as small and concealable as the smallest of the 9mm Kurz guns.

You claimed that 380ACP doesn't get made fun of. I countered that it does.

It's regularly called the biggest of the weak cartridges. Instructors limit students in their classes to 38SPC/9mm or larger.

I don't see how that makes your point, unless your point is something other than your very direct statement "Funny how the 9mm Kurz doesn't get made fun of."

 

[AJK129]

"Funny how the 9mm Kurz doesn't get made fun of."

 

[Dennis in MA]

The shooting through a windshield testing needs to be redone! The stolen car of choice is no longer a Buick or Cadillac, it's an Accord or Camry!

I never liked working in an office type setting. I was forced to for about a week because I was told I was a member of the management team. I quietly left and went back to my other "office" where I belonged. Your statement solidifies my reasoning why it is a terrible workplace setting!

I'm sure out in Berkshire, Coos, or Carroll County, there are some PD's still using .40 because they are to strapped for cash to buy newer pistols.

I've seen 40's careen off windshields. . .

 

[EJFudd]

The FBI and others went on chasing unicorns after FL, based on a perceived problem with their existing gun/caliber choices… and in the long game they realized they overreacted to the “problem” based on a poor understanding of handgun wound ballistics based off deeply flawed data and studies.

….and now we’re back here, with most pds dumping 40 for either 45 or 9mm….

Well, even Mister Coyle acknowledged that the 10mm round initially adopted was an improvement over the FBI's 9mm round.

I'll admit that I am not a big believer in the all-new 21st century "magical 9mm round" thinking that most people have now accepted. Most folks and agencies dumping the 10mm Kurz round for 9mm seem to be doing it for: a) cost savings and, b) more ammo capacity.

And "more ammo" seems to be the main order of the day. It seems to take a whole lot of ammo to stop today's criminals.

 

[EJFudd]

You claimed that 380ACP doesn't get made fun of. I countered that it does.

It's regularly called the biggest of the weak cartridges. Instructors limit students in their classes to 38SPC/9mm or larger.

I don't see how that makes your point, unless your point is something other than your very direct statement "Funny how the 9mm Kurz doesn't get made fun of."

I guess I have missed the many put downs of the 9mm Kurz. All I ever read about on NES is how the 10mm Kurz is no damn good.