The President Trump Megathread

Rating - 100%
99   0   0
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
15,998
Likes
4,632
Ha ha ha ha

Bill Gates Considers Voting Trump Over Elizabeth Warren's Wealth Tax

VATs and ultra complicated tax systems are definitely not what we need. That said regressive taxes, taxes on poor people in general and the entire system needs to be overhauled.
 

namedpipes

NES Member
Rating - 100%
3   0   0
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
31,384
Likes
13,634
Location
PREM
VATs and ultra complicated tax systems are definitely not what we need. That said regressive taxes, taxes on poor people in general and the entire system needs to be overhauled.
One of the Clancy novels (and yes, I know it was a book) described a scene where the new Prez was advocating an overhaul of the tax code. They arranged for a (flimsy) card table to be placed in Congress and started stacking the tax code in printed form onto it. The table obviously collapsed, proving the point. I might even be mixing my novels, but I'm pretty sure it was Clancy.

Yes, we need an overhaul. Even more, we need to enforce the concept of frugality and efficiency in government, and term limits.

Limit what they can collect, how they can spend it and how long they can control it. But none of this will ever happen.
 

SteelShooter

NES Member
Rating - 100%
31   0   0
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
8,825
Likes
1,791
Location
MA
One of the Clancy novels (and yes, I know it was a book) described a scene where the new Prez was advocating an overhaul of the tax code. They arranged for a (flimsy) card table to be placed in Congress and started stacking the tax code in printed form onto it. The table obviously collapsed, proving the point. I might even be mixing my novels, but I'm pretty sure it was Clancy.

Yes, we need an overhaul. Even more, we need to enforce the concept of frugality and efficiency in government, and term limits.

Limit what they can collect, how they can spend it and how long they can control it. But none of this will ever happen.
I was reading somewhere that a flat tax would save about 50 billion labor hours every year.
 
Rating - 100%
99   0   0
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
15,998
Likes
4,632
I was reading somewhere that a flat tax would save about 50 billion labor hours every year.
For sure. And it would also perpetuate the issue of liquid cash being removed from our domestic economy.

If regressive taxes are the goal flat taxes are the answer.
 

jpk

Rating - 100%
2   0   0
Joined
Jan 5, 2013
Messages
13,724
Likes
7,311
For sure. And it would also perpetuate the issue of liquid cash being removed from our domestic economy.

If regressive taxes are the goal flat taxes are the answer.
That whole "Regressive" leftist argument is hilarious.

It ignores the fact that any sort of fixed/flat form of taxation applies equally to all parties

It also reinforces the fact that leftists are not supporters of equality.....quite the contrary......leftists want special treatment for certain groups for arbitrary reasons.......its just like the selective enforcement of laws depending on who you are and what party you support........

If one were to apply the same arguments/positions that leftists have been applying to trump instead to Oblunder then Obama would have been impeached within his first year in office due to actual laws being broken

Regardless....income taxes need to be eliminated and the constitution amended in favor of a flat national consumption tax
 
Rating - 100%
99   0   0
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
15,998
Likes
4,632
That whole "Regressive" leftist argument is hilarious.

It ignores the fact that any sort of fixed/flat form of taxation applies equally to all parties

It also reinforces the fact that leftists are not supporters of equality.....quite the contrary......leftists want special treatment for certain groups for arbitrary reasons.......its just like the selective enforcement of laws depending on who you are and what party you support........

If one were to apply the same arguments/positions that leftists have been applying to trump instead to Oblunder then Obama would have been impeached within his first year in office due to actual laws being broken

Regardless....income taxes need to be eliminated and the constitution amended in favor of a flat national consumption tax
partisan baggage aside, lets turn our brains on and have a conversation.

Taxing jpk 30% who makes $20,000 a year is a shit ton of taxes to eat. Taxing Dench 30% per year who makes $150,000 is cutting into my cocaine weekends a little bit worst case scenario.

VATs are the same line of thinking. And who's supporting VATs? The left. The left might say they don't like regressive taxes, but VATs are pretty much King Kong on shit island in tax land.

Is a flat tax fair? No. Is any tax fair? No.

Flat anything is usually stupid. Flat tax is the financial equivalent to zero tolerance policy. Leave your brain at the door, reference spread sheet.

The tax system needs to be significantly simpler (ok, orders of magnitude), encourage liquid cash to stay in the live economy and not overseas or in convoluted banking systems so Jeff and friends can bang 12 year olds and encourage domestic industry. Our current system does not encourage big liquid pesos to hang around, is paying the gas for Jeffy and crew to bang kids and is and has been ruining all but complicated industry that Asia has yet to be able to easily take over.


If you want to cripple the economy for normal/poor people and bang kids flat tax and VATs all day. Same with consumption tax. The rich do not care. The poor will eat shit.

If the US didnt export war and weapons our economy would already be finished. And that's f***ed up.
 
Rating - 100%
7   0   0
Joined
Feb 7, 2010
Messages
20,134
Likes
8,242
Location
NH (CT Escapee)
I would personally rather outlaw income and VAT tax. Have a national sales tax that applies to everything. Every transaction same amount regardless of what it's for with no exceptions.
 

jpk

Rating - 100%
2   0   0
Joined
Jan 5, 2013
Messages
13,724
Likes
7,311
partisan baggage aside, lets turn our brains on and have a conversation.

Taxing jpk 30% who makes $20,000 a year is a shit ton of taxes to eat. Taxing Dench 30% per year who makes $150,000 is cutting into my cocaine weekends a little bit worst case scenario.

VATs are the same line of thinking. And who's supporting VATs? The left. The left might say they don't like regressive taxes, but VATs are pretty much King Kong on shit island in tax land.

Is a flat tax fair? No. Is any tax fair? No.

Flat anything is usually stupid. Flat tax is the financial equivalent to zero tolerance policy. Leave your brain at the door, reference spread sheet.

The tax system needs to be significantly simpler (ok, orders of magnitude), encourage liquid cash to stay in the live economy and not overseas or in convoluted banking systems so Jeff and friends can bang 12 year olds and encourage domestic industry. Our current system does not encourage big liquid pesos to hang around, is paying the gas for Jeffy and crew to bang kids and is and has been ruining all but complicated industry that Asia has yet to be able to easily take over.


If you want to cripple the economy for normal/poor people and bang kids flat tax and VATs all day. Same with consumption tax. The rich do not care. The poor will eat shit.

If the US didnt export war and weapons our economy would already be finished. And that's f***ed up.
Therein lies the problem comrade.......you think that people should be taxed based upon their labor.........from each according to their ability to each according to their need......

Taxation of labor is nothing short of slavery.....if you dont own your labor and are forced to give some entity a portion of it then you're necessarily a slave

This is why consumption tax/taxing economic activity is far less immoral/canfiscattory

The individual has the choice to enguage in economic activity beyond subsistence levels.

The people who enguage in more economic activity pay more taxes.......

Leftists dont like this because it doesnt allow them to control people and their behavior
 

jpk

Rating - 100%
2   0   0
Joined
Jan 5, 2013
Messages
13,724
Likes
7,311
I would personally rather outlaw income and VAT tax. Have a national sales tax that applies to everything. Every transaction same amount regardless of what it's for with no exceptions.
I agree with you but applying a sales tax to everything is exactly what a VAT tax is.......every transaction where some sort of value is added to a material/product/service is taxed

Sale of raw materials to a refiner is taxed

Sale of refined materials to company that creates finished product is taxed

Sale of finished product to consumer is taxed

Sale/provision of a service/labor is taxed

The problem with a EU style VAT is not the tax/structure but rather the size of the tax at every level

Most EU nations VAT tax rates are between 20 and 25 percent.....at each step.......but if it were only that simple

Most nations with VAT taxes have made it extraordinarily complicated/costly to comply with because they have reduced rate carve outs for some goods/services

At a super high level if we were to for illustrative purposes take GDP as a measure of economic activity to be taxed (theoretically)

US GDP in 2018 was 20494.10 BILLION USD

Hoping I get my decimal point movement here correct thats something like 204.941,000,000......almost 205 trillion dollars

Sorry if I f***ed up back of the napkin math here but a 4 cent national tax on economic activity would come out to something like 8.2 trillion in tax dollars each year........enough to cover fed spending and pay down the deficit in less than 10 years.......

Eliminate all other fed taxes.....

You buy a 35k car and you pay 1400 in fed tax

You buy 100 dollars in groceries and pay 4 dollars in tax

You get the picture.......

Its clean/easy/simple and less less costly to administer.....and much less prone to people making mistakes

Either you paid the tax or you didnt........innocent or guilty........no more IRS using tax code to punish people yada yada yada
 

TLB

Rating - 100%
1   0   0
Joined
Mar 26, 2010
Messages
4,069
Likes
1,670
Location
Heading for greener pastures
I agree with you but applying a sales tax to everything is exactly what a VAT tax is.......every transaction where some sort of value is added to a material/product/service is taxed

Sale of raw materials to a refiner is taxed

Sale of refined materials to company that creates finished product is taxed

Sale of finished product to consumer is taxed

Sale/provision of a service/labor is taxed

The problem with a EU style VAT is not the tax/structure but rather the size of the tax at every level

Most EU nations VAT tax rates are between 20 and 25 percent.....at each step.......but if it were only that simple

Most nations with VAT taxes have made it extraordinarily complicated/costly to comply with because they have reduced rate carve outs for some goods/services

At a super high level if we were to for illustrative purposes take GDP as a measure of economic activity to be taxed (theoretically)

US GDP in 2018 was 20494.10 BILLION USD

Hoping I get my decimal point movement here correct thats something like 204.941,000,000......almost 205 trillion dollars

Sorry if I f***ed up back of the napkin math here but a 4 cent national tax on economic activity would come out to something like 8.2 trillion in tax dollars each year........enough to cover fed spending and pay down the deficit in less than 10 years.......

Eliminate all other fed taxes.....

You buy a 35k car and you pay 1400 in fed tax

You buy 100 dollars in groceries and pay 4 dollars in tax

You get the picture.......

Its clean/easy/simple and less less costly to administer.....and much less prone to people making mistakes

Either you paid the tax or you didnt........innocent or guilty........no more IRS using tax code to punish people yada yada yada
The issue is the income tax will never go away.... It's all a pipe dream. Europe has the VAT plus high income taxes. No thanks.

The real issue of course is .gov spending never goes down and we have borrowed too much. There's no easy way out of this and no will amongst our pols to cut spending. Worse still, the leading candidate for the Dems is proposing another 30 trillion in spending over 10 years. Great!
 

Waher

NES Member
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Jan 2, 2014
Messages
7,951
Likes
6,294
Location
BG&RA, BR&PC
The solution is to cut spending.
Defund the Fed.
Every State already as most of the departments the Feds have.
That's the relationship states had to the federal government until Woodrow Wilson coopted the state militias, formed the Fed, instituted the income tax and set the stage for FDR invert the relationship with a gargantuan federal government dwarfing state governments.

Even the indirect election of Senators by state legislatures was part of the relationship of the Fed being smaller than the state governments and beholden to their interests until the power hungry commies changed that in the first half the 20th century.

The whole Constitution is pretty much saying that the Fed Gov is limited to x,y,z, and the rest is up to the states.
 

mibro

NES Member
Rating - 100%
13   0   0
Joined
Mar 4, 2013
Messages
12,029
Likes
8,635
Location
Mass.
Hoping I get my decimal point movement here correct thats something like 204.941,000,000......almost 205 trillion dollars

Sorry if I f***ed up back of the napkin math here but a 4 cent national tax on economic activity would come out to something like 8.2 trillion in tax dollars each year........enough to cover fed spending and pay down the deficit in less than 10 years.......
Decimal point one place off...so your proposal would require a 40% national tax on everything, not 4%. Sorry.

The point at which this could all have been painlessly unf***ed is long since passed.
 

mibro

NES Member
Rating - 100%
13   0   0
Joined
Mar 4, 2013
Messages
12,029
Likes
8,635
Location
Mass.
That's the relationship states had to the federal government until Woodrow Wilson coopted the state militias, formed the Fed, instituted the income tax and set the stage for FDR invert the relationship with a gargantuan federal government dwarfing state governments.
Sounds a lot like a coup. I wonder who did that?
 
Rating - 100%
99   0   0
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
15,998
Likes
4,632
Therein lies the problem comrade.......you think that people should be taxed based upon their labor.........from each according to their ability to each according to their need......

Taxation of labor is nothing short of slavery.....if you dont own your labor and are forced to give some entity a portion of it then you're necessarily a slave

This is why consumption tax/taxing economic activity is far less immoral/canfiscattory

The individual has the choice to enguage in economic activity beyond subsistence levels.

The people who enguage in more economic activity pay more taxes.......

Leftists dont like this because it doesnt allow them to control people and their behavior
Becuase exporting work to China is putting in work for the US. The same country with camps exterminating undesirables, today as I write this.

And I'm the pinko [rofl]
 

June4th

NES Member
Rating - 100%
38   0   0
Joined
Feb 17, 2008
Messages
3,991
Likes
2,433
Location
SE MA
US tax codes won’t be simplified by anything short of a blood-on-the-street revolutionary event. We are talking about THE most powerful weapon politicians have to punish enemies and reward friends, and they won’t give it up till the tree of liberty gets irrigated.
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Nov 7, 2005
Messages
637
Likes
13
Location
Hanover, NH
That whole "Regressive" leftist argument is hilarious.

It ignores the fact that any sort of fixed/flat form of taxation applies equally to all parties
I don't understand what you mean. Regressive and progressive have very specific meanings in economics and in taxes...
 

Waher

NES Member
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Jan 2, 2014
Messages
7,951
Likes
6,294
Location
BG&RA, BR&PC
Sounds a lot like a coup. I wonder who did that?
Since the 1880s there was an academic movement towards managerial/administrative states (anti-enlightenment & anti-industrial revolution movements at heart). Bismark showed an alternative to the UK, France, and US republics on top of Marx's crayon scrawls getting published post 1840. Read up about the Fabian Society in the UK and realize those a**h***s has peers in every country. The US in the 1890s/1900s had a huge problem with anarchists pulling Antifa style shit too. The establishment of the federal civil service around that time coupled with the influence of academia got the ball rolling. Wilson got elected in a three way split election and had the advantage of a divisive World War, the new women's vote, and a religious movement pushing for more government intrusion in the name of morality/racism.

FDR, LBJ, and later Obama would take advantage of similar economic/social/global conflict turmoil to grab power.

I firmly believe President Lincoln was done in by other members of the US Government that knew he had let Fedzilla out of the constitutional cage and did not want him undoing the excesses he engaged in to win the Civil War. The Republican Party at that time knew they were in a position to have an orgy of power and money in the aftermath and they didn't want Abe stopping it.

Any time a political party cares more about power than the good of the people everything goes to shit. Right now the DNC would rather rule supremely over rubble than cede any power to the unwashed.
 
Last edited:
Rating - 100%
99   0   0
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
15,998
Likes
4,632
Any time a political party cares more about power than the good of the people everything goes to shit. Right now the DNC would rather rule supremely over rubble than cede any power to the unwashed.
It's both sides. Bush and Trump arent exactly champions of personal liberty.
 
Top Bottom