The pistol carbine 9mm - Novelty or purpose

June4th

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Mauser C96 Broomhandle Schnellfeuer: select fire capability, it's a pistol without stock, a carbine with. Pull the trigger gangsta style and it naturally creates a left-right sweep to KILL EVERYBODY in the room.

*mic drop, walk off the stage*

 

frenchman

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OK, you guys argue that PCCs are just as good or even better than carbines/rifles. I say they're not. Let's just meet in the middle and say they're not. Look, I'm a somewhat stubborn mofo, and you guys won't change my mind (nowhere in my post did i mention sub sonics btw).
I'm not saying that PCCs don't have their place. All you have to do is travel back to 1885 and help conquer the west. A PCC will be the greatest thing you can get your hands on as a girl (if you're a guy, you'll go with a 45/70 sharps). No seriously, you don't even have to justify how and why you're wasting your money on an inferior weapon. This is America in almost 2020, you can be gay all you want.[rofl]
No panic, it's al, in good spirit.
 

Zarathustra11

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Period, really? No. PCC is easier to shoot well, better to hang a light, red dot etc. on, adequate ballistics, less risk of overpenetration, much less blast, flash, and noise, especially indoors. Inexpensive to shoot and FUN to shoot. It's the logical choice for most home defense scenarios.

I've had to quick grab a gun and shoot foxes, etc. many times without time to put ear protection in. Still no tinnitus. I doubt I'd be able to say that if I'd used a rifle.
I agree. Even a basic pistol 'accessory' such as the non-SBR 'brace' CAA offers (i.e. Micro Roni) can significantly increase accuracy, target acquisition, and follow up shots on target within a relatively confined environment; while allowing additional accessories (red dot, flash light, sling and whatever else floats your boat).

Don't want all the added 'accessories'? Just pull out the Glock and use it as a standard handgun. As gimmicky as something like this appears to be, it does instill a greater confidence in terms of being able to hit a target in a potentially dark, chaotic, and stressful situation where you may also have loved ones in proximity. The CAA stabilizing brace certainly has it's flaws and downsides, but I'm referencing this as example. Shooting this thing is fun as anything I've shot, and it is far more accurate than I'll ever be.

 
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hedgehound

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we are living in the hayday of PCCs although come next ammo craze when 9mm triples in price the nobody will be shooting these 9mm carbines. while fun to shoot the longer barrel pushes most expanding 9mm projectiles well above their optimal velocities. many of them "over-expand" and essentially blow apart. if the intended purpose is defensive use then one has to consider these effects of excessive velocity. I suppose it's another area where the non-expanding options like Lehigh's full copper projectiles really shine. that or one has to stick with FMJ and just rely on the crazy high velocity to work its magic.



for a blowback design the hammer spring plays a role in slowing down bolt opening and rearward travel. lowering the hammer spring strength, while improving the trigger, generates some risk of early unlocking particularly if one decides to run higher pressured ammo. it also increases likelihood of light strikes. if i were dropping the hammer spring weights on such a design would confirm ignition on something like berdan primed ammo (e.g. Wolf, Tulammo) to ensure that one isn't operating close to the limit for ignition.
The hammer spring is not replaced.
 

M1911

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it is easier to accessorize than a standard AR handguard with picatinny, Mlok or keymod?
AR9 uses the exact same AR hand guard. So no difference there at all.

I’ve taken an indoor defensive carbine class using 5.56 and 7.62x39 out of ~16“ barrels. Even with plugs and muffs, the 7.62x39 was painful and the 5.56 wasn’t great either. Without hearing protection, they will cause permanent hearing damage. No thank you very much.

Sadly, suppressors are not allowed here in the PRM.
 
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PappyM3

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OK, you guys argue that PCCs are just as good or even better than carbines/rifles. I say they're not.
In general, you’re right. But we’re discussing a specific use case here, not in general. But we get it, stocks are pointless but rifles are the best ;)

(nowhere in my post did i mention sub sonics btw)
I know, I did.
 

bfm

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If you can't shoot a pistol at "in house" distances accurately enough to hit a bad guy with a full mag, you don't need a PCC, you need a few cases of practice ammo. The difference in ballistics between a 5" carbine and a 5" pistol is exactly zero. If you use a 16" PCC for home defense instead of a 16" 5.56 or 7.62, you're not using the best tool for the job. Period.
Best is always going to come down to a long list of criteria and your list may not be the same as everyone else's. As I mentioned my wife likes shooting the Storm CX4 but does not like shooting ARs. Rather than get divorced over the issue, we set up the Storm to be ready if something goes bump in the night. My ex aso did not like ARs, was ok with a Storm, but really prefered a 12 gauge. So, got a stock with a LOP she liked, mounted a light, a sling and a side saddle and trained with that.

I practice enough that I would not have a problem if all I had was a pistol. But if I am even a fraction more accurate or faster with a PCC why would I not take that advantage? I don't want a fair fight.

Personally, I would not SBR a PCC down below 10-12" Most 9mm will pick up velocity while over 16" some have already started to lose velocity again.

Posted a link earlier to Luck Gunner review of defensive rounds in PCCs. While I normally use 124-125gr 9mm in my pistols, I keep 147gr +P in my PCCs.

If I ever feel like dealing with another caliber, I might SBR a .300 Blackout and run subsonics as a bedside gun.

Now if we could have cans in MA I might push harder for the wife to just use an SBR AR with can.
 
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When I think of PPC's I always visualize the pistol versions. A 9mm AR pistol with a brace gives a short barreled, submachine gun sized firearm without the NFA hassle. Makes more sense, too, for a pistol caliber where you don't really need a 16" or longer barrel to get the best ballistically from the cartridge. Also having a 16" barrelled gun why not have it in 5.56 for the same size? A PPC with a 8-10" barrel and a brace is a nice short handy little gun.
I am hoping that PSA comes out with their MP5 pistol at a price lower than the competing ones....with a collapsible brace it'll be like a semi auto MP5 in size and convenience of use. And not cost $2k+!
I know it's a bit of a difference between carbines and pistols but that's where the discussion take me, personally.

You guys in Mass and CT may not be able to do the AR pistol with a brace thing, though....
 

M1911

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We can’t do the AR pistol here in MA. And since we can’t do suppressors either, I would prefer 9mm over 5.56 for indoors, just due to the report.

IMNSHO, there is no “best” defensive firearm. They all have trade offs and what works for me might not work for someone else.

I use a pistol for my home defense firearm for a couple reasons. First, it is easy for me to secure in an easily concealed pistol safe. I can operate the pistol while holding a phone in my other hand. I have a weapon light mounted on my pistol (yes, I keep handheld flashlights accessible as well).

A carbine would be easier to shoot quickly and accurately, but is harder to use with one hand (can’t use the phone at the same time as easily), and would be harder for me to secure out of sight and be easily accessible.

My shotgun offers a lot more stopping power and flexible ammunition choices, but has the same issues with two hands and how to secure it out of sight. My shotgun also has lower capacity and would be hard to mount a weapon light.

So my primary home defense gun is a handgun, but if I have time to get to my safe downstairs, I may grab a long gun. If I had an AR9 carbine, I’d feel well armed using that for home defense.

YMMV.
 
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When I think of PPC's I always visualize the pistol versions. A 9mm AR pistol with a brace gives a short barreled, submachine gun sized firearm without the NFA hassle. Makes more sense, too, for a pistol caliber where you don't really need a 16" or longer barrel to get the best ballistically from the cartridge. Also having a 16" barrelled gun why not have it in 5.56 for the same size? A PPC with a 8-10" barrel and a brace is a nice short handy little gun.
This is how I think as well. Why some people choose to build a 7.5” 5.56 AR flamethrower or 16” 9mm PPC is beyond me. If I have a 16” barrel, I want something a little more potent then 9mm. I have 9” and 10.3” 300blk builds. 14.5-18” 5.56 builds and 3”-5.3” handguns. A real PCC in an ideal world without 86’ Hughes would be select fire with a can.
 

TPNES

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Maxim a Defense PDX. You’re welcome. 5.56 7.62 or 300BLK in a 5.5 inch barrel and full reliability. Neat little thing. For HD the last thing you should be worrying about is your hearing loss ;) plenty of guys downrange fired many more rounds than you ever will and without ears or with shit 3M plugs. Ok so they ask you to repeat yourself 14 times in a row but whose counting?
 

jasonj84

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Maxim a Defense PDX. You’re welcome. 5.56 7.62 or 300BLK in a 5.5 inch barrel and full reliability. Neat little thing. For HD the last thing you should be worrying about is your hearing loss ;) plenty of guys downrange fired many more rounds than you ever will and without ears or with shit 3M plugs. Ok so they ask you to repeat yourself 14 times in a row but whose counting?
They aren’t giving those away.
 

TPNES

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They aren’t giving those away.
Not cheap for sure but the full upper kit and stock drops right in to any AR lower. In the 5-7 inch barrel world you are very hard pressed to find something in 5.56 that works out of the box without tuning and trouble shooting parts.
 

milktree

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I agree. Even a basic pistol 'accessory' such as the non-SBR 'brace' CAA offers (i.e. Micro Roni) can significantly increase accuracy, target acquisition, and follow up shots on target within a relatively confined environment; while allowing additional accessories (red dot, flash light, sling and whatever else floats your boat).

Don't want all the added 'accessories'? Just pull out the Glock and use it as a standard handgun. As gimmicky as something like this appears to be, it does instill a greater confidence in terms of being able to hit a target in a potentially dark, chaotic, and stressful situation where you may also have loved ones in proximity. The CAA stabilizing brace certainly has it's flaws and downsides, but I'm referencing this as example. Shooting this thing is fun as anything I've shot, and it is far more accurate than I'll ever be.

How the hell is that *NOT* an SBR under ATF's definitions?
 

ReluctantDecoy

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I have a Zenith Z-RS (MP5 clone) Its a novelty looking for a purpose. Its more fun to look at than shoot. When my supressor gets out of jail, then it will probably be more fun to shoot and will be come my home defense gunView attachment 311195
She's a beaut. Can I ask though why it is more fun to look at than shoot? I love shooting my clone, even with all it's ammo pickiness. My only real complaint is no LRBHO. Yours is much nicer than mine, but here's mine. Went B&W so you can't see all the issues....lol

1.jpg
 

Supermoto

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She's a beaut. Can I ask though why it is more fun to look at than shoot?
It just doesn't do anything for me when shooting. With the sights being so low, I'm jammed up behind the gun and don't feel like it points naturally or transitions well. Adding a red dot would certainly help, but I feel that it ruins the classic look. It shoots very smooth and has been 100% reliable, but just can't get comfortable behind it
 
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If you can't shoot a pistol at "in house" distances accurately enough to hit a bad guy with a full mag, you don't need a PCC, you need a few cases of practice ammo. The difference in ballistics between a 5" carbine and a 5" pistol is exactly zero. If you use a 16" PCC for home defense instead of a 16" 5.56 or 7.62, you're not using the best tool for the job. Period.
Sounds like a bit too much for my taste. Like using a chainsaw to manicure hedges. What do I know, kinda new to this whole thing.
 
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I’ve taken an indoor defensive carbine class using 5.56 and 7.62x39 out of ~16“ barrels. Even with plugs and muffs, the 7.62x39 was painful and the 5.56 wasn’t great either. Without hearing protection, they will cause permanent hearing damage. No thank you very much.
Yes, totally agreed. At my indoor range those rounds definitely make me uneasy, I have to double up on ear protection.
 
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Love my Beretta CX Storm.....
Yeah. Shot one of these last night, surprised by the shot quality on this setup. I’d consider it, but the looks just doesn’t appeal to me. Bummer, it shoots so nice. Next on the list to try is a Vector and an MP5.
 

ReluctantDecoy

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Yeah. Shot one of these last night, surprised by the shot quality on this setup. I’d consider it, but the looks just doesn’t appeal to me. Bummer, it shoots so nice. Next on the list to try is a Vector and an MP5.
There are some rather interesting cosmetic modifications that can be done to the CX Storm if one was interested in getting creative. I probably wouldn't do it myself, as these don't really seem to add any functionality other than maybe the hack for a full length top rail. I also wouldn't buy a gun to immediate chop. But people are indeed changing the appearance of this carbine.



 

rep308

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I'm a lefty and love the ability of the Beretta CX to change the ejection side. It also take 15 round Beretta 92FS mags (as well as PX mags). I sent my trigger group out to:

Sierra Pappa CX4 Gunsmithing Services — Beretta CX4 Storm Accessories & Parts Upgrades

and it made the world of difference, also got their solid SS guide rod and buffer.

If I could only SBR and suppress it, it would be perfect
 

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