The move towards red dot sights

[Rockrivr1]

A number of semi auto manufacturers are starting to offer red dot sights as standard equipment on some of their models. I've seen and handled handguns with Romeo 1s, Vortex Venoms, Trijicon RMRs, etc and to be honest I like the way some of them feel. Out of what I've held I'm liking the way the Sigs feel in my hand and especially like the co-witness setup of the sights with the red dots. I thought of going with a Sig 320, but the 229 and 226 both feel a little better in my hand. I'm hearing the Romeo 1s may be revamped in the very near future, so it has me hesitant to jump on board now.

So what's your thoughts on the red dot thing? Wave of the future or gimmick that will not have legs into the future? What other handguns do you think I should try out that come with these red dots?

 

[Uzi2]

I recently fitted 5 of my AR pistols and 2 carbines with them. Nothing expensive and still have irons. They are co witnessed.

Helps alot in limited light conditions.

 

[30 cal slut]

A few years ago Mike Pannone mentioned to me that red dot sights on pistols are the future.

Well, the future is now.

RDS on pistols are nothing new - they've been used in competition for decades now (TASCO mounted on a 1911).

It's just that the tech has gotten much more reliable and accessible.

They do offer advantages over irons - the long and short of it is they can be quicker on target at short and especially long distance.

They are superior to irons when shooting at a moving target.

They are superior to irons when shooting on the move.

They are superior to irons when shooting on the move, at a moving target.

As mentioned above, they are superior to iron sights at night.

As I learned in Don Edwards' Night Fighter Class in NH this past May, RDS's are also superior to iron night sights when using night vision.

The tradeoff here is that you'll need to adjust some of the pistol fundamentals to make the most of the platform.

The RDS makes sight alignment unnecessary and makes acquiring a sight picture easier and faster.

However, the RDS won't do all the work for you.

Before we know it, we'll have generations of shooters who will have never shot iron sights on pistols.

It wasn't too long ago (last year) that I was guest teaching a pistol permit class at a range where they made RDS available.

Soon, the NRA is going to have to revamp its pistol marksmanship handbook to include RDS.

 

[allen-1]

I've got two slides for one of my Glock 17's. One with Tru-Glo's and the other with a Trijicon RMR. Depending upon what I'm shooting, I pick the appropriate slide. I'm currently looking for another Gen4 G34 slide for that lower.

I've got Burris Fastfire III's on four other guns that I use for pins and plates - a S&W 1911, a S&W 617, a Browning Buckmark and a Ruger GP100.

Those are the only ones I've got experience with.

I'm not ready to put a red dot on a carry gun. If I were going to do so, I'd go with a Trijicon rather than the Burris.

Edited to add - and I've got red-dots on all of my AR's that I don't have scopes on. They're good out to 100 yards. After that, it's my eyes that fail.

 

[30 cal slut]

Recent build I did with a Glock 45 MOS with a Trijicon RMR (RM06 Type 2 RMR with 3.25 MOA adjustable LED red dot).

Was super easy since the slide was already cut by Glock. Just used the supplied mounting plates.

Don Edwards and Sam Houston of TNVC also suggest using improved RMR Cover Plate Mounting Screws (use Vibra-tite thread locker) and RMR Sealing Plates made by Battlewerx.

My BUIS are from Dawson Precision which makes sights specifically for the RMR.

 

[30 cal slut]

I'm still getting the hang of this system but here is a 25 yard slow fire 10 round group on a B8-c bull.

The difference between this and other groups I shoot with irons is that I'm much faster on target with the RDS and it's much easier to take the shot at 25 yards.

 

[30 cal slut]

If anyone is interested, I'm hosting a 2 day red dot pistol specific class in CT on Oct 26-27 with Don Edwards of Greenline Tactical.

All are welcome.

Greenline Tactical Red Dot Pistol - October 26 & 27, Wallingford, CT

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

I recently fitted 5 of my AR pistols and 2 carbines with them. Nothing expensive and still have irons. They are co witnessed.

Helps alot in limited light conditions.

I think he's referring to current trendiness of red dots on handguns. I'm kind of split on this trend. Part of my brain calls this out as a tad unnecessary and the influence of the gun manufacturers to sell you more crap. The other part of my brain is telling me to get a RMR and a gun light for a G19. I'm divided. RMR should never replace base knowledge of how to use iron sights, but at the same time it would probably help me out with my cross eye dominance. As it stands, I have to really concentrate and focus with this cross eye thing when using iron sights, whereas my red dots on my PCC is almost immediate target acquisition.

So yeah, I'm torn. I may make one raced-out G19 at some point, but I'm not putting RMR's on everything I own.

 

[M1911]

I got another slide for my Glock 19 and put an RMR on it. I’ve been dry firing it most nights. I’m still slower with it at close distances as I search for the dot.

You really need to practice a lot with it in order to have the dot in your view when you present the gun. It takes more practice than iron sights, not less.

 

[Supermoto]

They are fun for a range toy, but they don't last when they are mounted to a slide and they are slower up close than irons. For a self defense gun, money is better spent on ammo and good training

 

[Davidk]

Red dots on pistol are fine when you have a good presentation from the holster. The problem arises when you are in an odd position, such as you may be in a defensive shoot, and the sights don't instinctively line up with your eye. In that case you are searching for the dot, then transitioning to your mechanical sights. Both of which adds time and confusion when you can least afford it.

Red dots are rifles are another story. Since you have 4 points of contact with the gun, it is very easy to line up the dot in just about any position .

 

[45collector]

I have tried shooting with a red dot and I much prefer irons. For IDPA or anything paper, I like a 3 white dot setup. For Walls of Steel/ Steel challenge I go with a red fiberoptic front sight and two white dots in the rear. I don't know how I arrived at doing it like this, but it works for me.

 

[Dench]

I have an RMR on my G34. I suck with it and need a shit ton of practice. It takes some getting used to.

I have another RMR on my Saiga AK-74. It's point and shoot, very easy to use.

 

[sigfanboy13]

I have an RMR on my G34. I suck with it and need a shit ton of practice. It takes some getting used to.

I have another RMR on my Saiga AK-74. It's point and shoot, very easy to use.

Red dots are and for the foreseeable future be awesome on rifles as the cheek weld eliminates trying to find the dot.

 

[Lennypeters]

As others have noted red dots on pistols are nothing new. I have shot .22 pistols and 1911 .45's with them for many years. On the .45's they ride on the slide with no issues. Up until recently all I used was Ultradot tube red dots. I am trying to get used to a Burris Fastfire because it weighs a lot less than the UD's. My only issue is getting used to finding the dot without having the tube as a reference. My 2 cents.

 

[Dennis in MA]

Funny thought - I've been looking at a C upper for my Polymer80. No one makes one. You can get one of those big-ass barrels with a comp on it or something. But finding a C upper is impossible.

So Brownells (and others) sells factory C barrels. There are a number of skeletonized slides out there - picked one up today. Should be here next week.

It's RMR cut. I happen to have bought on a year or three ago. I'm excited to put it all together.

Now, will I ever CARRY a pistol with a red-dot? Probably not. Will I enjoy shooting this one? Definitely.

The funny thing is Now I gotta buy another Romeo5 to put on my AR pistol if this RMR on the 19C slide works.

It's a no-brainer for a carbine as well. Hell, I've got an 8-10yo Eotech on my preban. It's huge in comparison to anything I get today. But still very functional.

 

[kmanick]

my Trijicon SRO just arrived today , going on my Shadow 2, I switched over to Carry Optics towards the end of last summer, never going back
my steel times have greatly improved since switching "to the dark side' I haven't milled my M&P 9C......yet, but I may have an RMR put on there, my eyes just keep getting worse as I get older
Drawing takes lots of reps , I still struggle with it occasionally and it's the one area I really need to work on , but once I've got that dot acquired , my transitions are much
faster and more consistent than they were with Irons

 

[whacko]

A few years ago Mike Pannone mentioned to me that red dot sights on pistols are the future.

Well, the future is now.

RDS on pistols are nothing new - they've been used in competition for decades now (TASCO mounted on a 1911).

It's just that the tech has gotten much more reliable and accessible.

They do offer advantages over irons - the long and short of it is they can be quicker on target at short and especially long distance.

They are superior to irons when shooting at a moving target.

They are superior to irons when shooting on the move.

They are superior to irons when shooting on the move, at a moving target.

As mentioned above, they are superior to iron sights at night.

As I learned in Don Edwards' Night Fighter Class in NH this past May, RDS's are also superior to iron night sights when using night vision.

The tradeoff here is that you'll need to adjust some of the pistol fundamentals to make the most of the platform.

The RDS makes sight alignment unnecessary and makes acquiring a sight picture easier and faster.

However, the RDS won't do all the work for you.

Before we know it, we'll have generations of shooters who will have never shot iron sights on pistols.

It wasn't too long ago (last year) that I was guest teaching a pistol permit class at a range where they made RDS available.

Soon, the NRA is going to have to revamp its pistol marksmanship handbook to include RDS.

I disagree slightly with "sight alignment is not necessary". To some extent you still have to "align" when you draw and bring the gun up. I've seen countless shooters at steel challenge "lose the dot" when they draw and present the handgun. Then they stand their wiggling the pistol around till they find the dot again. I'll admit it's much much easier than irons......but the shooter must practice and gain the muscle memory when presenting the fire arm to consistently have the red dot in view on the sight.

 

[whacko]

Red dots on pistol are fine when you have a good presentation from the holster. The problem arises when you are in an odd position, such as you may be in a defensive shoot, and the sights don't instinctively line up with your eye. In that case you are searching for the dot, then transitioning to your mechanical sights. Both of which adds time and confusion when you can least afford it.

Red dots are rifles are another story. Since you have 3 points of contact with the gun, it is very easy to line up the dot in just about any position .

Ah....yes....the old "red dot wiggle". Seen it with many steel challenge shooters. They draw....present.......then stand their wiggling the pistol around till they find the dot. Muscle memory is key for a red to be faster.

 

[whacko]

if someone has established that muscle memory on irons there shouldnt be a change when they go to red dot.......and no resulting wiggle........gun comes up to same point off aim regardless......no?

In theory sure. In practical use I see the red dot wiggle all the time.

My point is.......a red dot does not make it automatically easier to align the handgun and shoot fast. It still takes practice......same with irons.

I don't use a red dot on a handgun (i do on a muzzle loader for deer hunting)......and I'm not knocking it. Just pointing out that a red dot is not a replacement for practice. Perhaps I should have said "practice is key" rather then "muscle memory" is key. Both irons and red dot require practice.

 

[Davidk]

if someone has established that muscle memory on irons there shouldnt be a change when they go to red dot.......and no resulting wiggle........gun comes up to same point off aim regardless......no?

Again, the problem is with odd shooting positions where you don't have muscle memory.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

Altho none of us in this hunting family use them, they might be good for brush hunting on rifles. Jack.

 

[teaser452]

I use red dots on ARs and shotguns.

Seems it just makes a carry pistol even bulkier.

Never used a red dot on a hand gun. Not against it, but seems sub optimal for carry.

I do like red dots. As @allen-1 said, my eyes fail me after 100 yards.

 

[whacko]

Altho none of us in this hunting family use them, they might be good for brush hunting on rifles. Jack.

I've taken 2 deer with muzzle loader with red Dot. Very fast to acquire the dot with a rifle......the cheek weld brins the red dot in view very quickly. As has been said here....on a handgun finding the dot still takes a bit of practice. And yes.....a red dot on a Iong gun is very good in the brush.

 

[Bonesinium]

So what's your thoughts on the red dot thing? Wave of the future or gimmick that will not have legs into the future? What other handguns do you think I should try out that come with these red dots?

Neither. They aren’t a wave of the future nor a gimmick. They are the present.

What should you try? Any. Practically all platforms have models that either come RDS ready or can have the slide cut to accept them. So whatever you prefer without a RDS seems reasonable.

 

[drgrant]

I think he's referring to current trendiness of red dots on handguns. I'm kind of split on this trend. Part of my brain calls this out as a tad unnecessary and the influence of the gun manufacturers to sell you more crap. The other part of my brain is telling me to get a RMR and a gun light for a G19. I'm divided. RMR should never replace base knowledge of how to use iron sights, but at the same time it would probably help me out with my cross eye dominance. As it stands, I have to really concentrate and focus with this cross eye thing when using iron sights, whereas my red dots on my PCC is almost immediate target acquisition.

So yeah, I'm torn. I may make one raced-out G19 at some point, but I'm not putting RMR's on everything I own.

This... IMHO Most of the "trend" is a quest by the industry to sell more shit in a really slow market.

And it's not that they don't have legit uses, they certainly do, but this is hardly "new" technology. This is some guy in the industry going "but, what if we just take red dots and put them on f***ing everything, instead of just race guns?" and a bunch of industry types started jerking off furiously about selling more red dots as a marketing thing, etc.

-Mike

 

[E.Stoner]

I am all about RDS. I am faster and more accurate across the board.
There is a bit of a learning curve, but if you invest the time and effort it is well worth it.
It's not hype. Also if you vision isn't the best or you are cross eye dominant like I am. A dot is a blessing in low light and without glasses (think 3am in the morning) dots shine, quite literally.
I think a dot is really valuable for folks who still need to work on basic marksmanship (sights and trigger) but reducing the complexity of the system (sight picture) and getting instant verification of their trigger press. Seeing your jerk or your "flinchies" can be difficult with irons, but with a red dot it is immediately obvious.

 

[jasons]

I don't know much about red dots on pistols, but I can tell you that scopes with simple reticles have revolutionized rifle sports that have traditionally been all irons, service rifle in particular. They don't make the fundamentals any less important but they sure do make it easier to keep them in the middle. It's rare to see someone shooting irons at a service rifle match these days.

 

[Bonesinium]

This... IMHO Most of the "trend" is a quest by the industry to sell more shit in a really slow market.

Well I mean, yes obviously. That’s the point of businesses. To sell things and make profits. Doesn’t mean it’s a trend...

And it's not that they don't have legit uses, they certainly do, but this is hardly "new" technology. This is some guy in the industry going "but, what if we just take red dots and put them on f***ing everything, instead of just race guns?" and a bunch of industry types started jerking off furiously about selling more red dots as a marketing thing, etc.

-Mike

New technology? No. It’s improved technology. Before it wasn’t practical or reliable enough to be worthwhile for anything but race guns. Now it is. They can take beatings, have good battery life, have auto on functions, are bright enough and compact enough to be slide mounted on any gun.

Being dismissive of them is a mistake on your part. It’s not a silly trend. It’s not just some guy trying to sell toys that only belong on race guns. They work. They work well. And they even allow people with vision limitations to shoot better.

People said the same thing about red dots before with regards to long guns. Now they are literally the standard.

 

[jek]

I have a lot of trouble using scopes due to recent and past eye issues. RDS are much easier for my aging eyes these days and I'm gradually adding them to many of my guns. Target acquisition is much faster and simpler. The problem is the added cost of adapting guns to RDS, especially handguns that aren't designed for them.