"The Load" - revisited

[jhrosier]

The Load is 13 grains of Red Dot powder.

This article explains the details much better than I can : http://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/The Load.htm

I got a helluva good deal on an eight pounder of Red Dot last year and decided to try The Load in my 03A3 Springfield. The 147gr fmj is said to be traveling about 1600 fps. No significant recoil or muzzle blast. Even with my ef'd up vision (cataracts etc) I can get about 1" groups at 50 yards with the issue sights. It makes me as happy as an orange popsicle on a hot day.

I expect to get over 4000 rounds out of the jug of powder. I've got a thousand or so fmj bullets and then will switch to cast lead bullets.
I have not tried the load beyond 50 yards yet, but I would expect it to work out to about 200 yards.

Anyone else working on similar loads?

Jack

 

[mac1911]

The Load is 13 grains of Red Dot powder.

This article explains the details much better than I can : http://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/The Load.htm

I got a helluva good deal on an eight pounder of Red Dot last year and decided to try The Load in my 03A3 Springfield. The 147gr fmj is said to be traveling about 1600 fps. No significant recoil or muzzle blast. Even with my ef'd up vision (cataracts etc) I can get about 1" groups at 50 yards with the issue sights. It makes me as happy as an orange popsicle on a hot day.

I expect to get over 4000 rounds out of the jug of powder. I've got a thousand or so fmj bullets and then will switch to cast lead bullets.
I have not tried the load beyond 50 yards yet, but I would expect it to work out to about 200 yards.

Anyone else working on similar loads?

Jack

Yes ....much likes the 16 grains of 2400 with cast loads in my 30cal rifles.
There's also more good info here on "reduced loads"
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?13425-Cast-Bullet-Loads-for-Military-Rifles-Article

I can run 165 grain cast loads in my 1903a3 at 200 yards with rear sight set to 500 yards and it's accurate enough to hold the ten ring if I can put them there

Post 18 I touch a little on my cast loads in the 1903a3 and Mosin.
It's fun when the most expensive part of your load is the primer.
https://www.northeastshooters.com/v...-bullets-ammo?highlight=Cast+loads+for+1903a3

 

[jhrosier]

Yes ....much likes the 16 grains of 2400 with cast loads in my 30cal rifles.....

It looks like the 13 grs Red Dot and 16grs 2400 give nearly identical performance.

The Red Dot load does not seem to be position sensitive BTW.

Now I'm wondering if I can get away with plain based lead bullets at this velocity.
The cost of a gas check would be about half the cost of a loaded cartridge.

Jack

 

[NavelOfficer]

You can go lower, but I suppose you could argue why have a .30-06 de-tuned to .22 LR strength.
My reasoning is does it clear the barrel and can you achieve consistent groups. It wouldn't be a big savings to load so slight that the bullet falls to the ground within ten feet of the muzzle.
I often shoot the plain-base 130g LRN (Lyman 311410) out of my K31 and FR-7 with 7.0g to 9.0g of whatever pistol powders I have on hand (Unique, W452AA, AL-7, W571, etc). Same with the 6.5x55mm using the Lyman 266469 w/o gas checks.
Mind you, you may need to set your sights for 300 to 500 meters and lob them to the target.





Beyond 50 meters, I really need the 2x scope to see what I'm shooting at. I can get the K31 (iron) to hit all on paper, but I really can't see much to get a consistent aim point.

 

[NavelOfficer]

One more for good versatility measure...


Many of these are dummy rounds. 130g LRN seated just to show assorted applications. Seating depths will need to be checked for your specific caliber/application.
Since my mold drops them around .313" they can be sized for .30-30, .30 Carbine on up to 7.62x39/54R, 7.7 Jap, 7.65 Arg. and .303 British, too.

 

[Fixxah]

Hey Jack, get the punch and make your own checks. Any sheet metal shop will part with scrap copper from shower pans for spot which is not much right now.

 

[Roy Rogers]

"The Load" - revisited

In a similar vein, here's a creative idea outlined in the article below. In summary, the author makes handloads for classic milsurp rifles charged with just enough powder to generate about 1200 f.p.s. Sighted in at 100 yds., adjusting for the reduced loads, rifles with these handloads are plenty accurate. With this approach, people new to shooting--grown-ups as well as kids--can get “hands-on with history” and appreciate iconic arms minus the recoil, noise and blast effect that full-house mil-spec loads can produce. At last month's GOAL Shoot-B-Q, an esteemed Hopkinton member using this technique set up a station and had a continuous stream of guests shooting his WW I and II milsurps with these handloads and cast bullets, and ringing steel at 100 yards. There were smiles and high-fives all around. As noted by others in this discussion, such loads are also economical. They can also extend barrel life.

 

[mac1911]

It's also fun to shoot your custom cast loads more accurate than any factory jacketed ammo.
My mosin shoots jacketed ammo awful. Although a .314 cast load of 200 grains I can get under 4moa.

It's also cheap to blast reduced loads. My current cast loads for my 1903a3 are cheaper than a lot of the 2222lr out there
My most expensive cast load cost me .15 cents each....that's only because I use more powder.
I did some math and calculated my investment in casting to come out to .05 cents per 200 grain bullet.
1.5 cents for primer and 1 cent for gas checks, I bought many thousands even before I started casting.

It's all good.

 

[Steve Marshall]

Gas checks probably aren't needed for most lower velocity loads. That of course would be dependent on actual velocity, correct bullet size for your barrel and composition/hardness of the bullet. Go to castboolits.com for instruction and be prepared to read. A lot. But while you are there, do a search for home made gas checks and get ready to be surprised. Those jasbos make gas checks out of all sorts of materials including soda cans, and the equipment to make them. Even the more expensive versions aren't that pricey. About 30 years ago I played with Unique and jacketed bullets. My best 5 shot group at 100 yards was about 3/8". Shit luck to be sure but most groups were around an inch.

 

[mac1911]

In a similar vein, here's a creative idea outlined in the article below. In summary, the author makes handloads for classic milsurp rifles charged with just enough powder to generate about 1200 f.p.s. Sighted in at 100 yds., adjusting for the reduced loads, rifles with these handloads are plenty accurate. With this approach, people new to shooting--grown-ups as well as kids--can get “hands-on with history” and appreciate iconic arms minus the recoil, noise and blast effect that full-house mil-spec loads can produce. At last month's GOAL Shoot-B-Q, an esteemed Hopkinton member using this technique set up a station and had a continuous stream of guests shooting his WW I and II milsurps with these handloads and cast bullets, and ringing steel at 100 yards. There were smiles and high-fives all around. As noted by others in this discussion, such loads are also economical.

We do need more younger shooters.... shooting in matches!

 

[jhrosier]

Hey Jack, get the punch and make your own checks. ....

Been there, done that.
I bought the tool and gave it the old college try. The tool is somewhere in the cellar, I don't expect something without any work on my part, however, making gas checks one at a time with hand tools is way more trouble than it is worth.

If I am not able to use un-checked cast bullets @1600, I might either back the loads off a couple hundred fps or look for a cheaper source of checks.

As I recall, the National Guard used plain lead bullets in their gallery cartridges a centry ago. I wonder if the cartridges were loaded with gas checks. My instinct tells me no.

BTW, clay birds offhand @50 yds or from a rest at longer ranges is an awfull lot of fun and probably a good way to introduce a new shooter to the sport.


Jack

 

[NavelOfficer]

I've been advocating economical, easy shooting reduced loads to many on the CT forums, but all the shooters here seem to favor the neanderthal recoil and noise of full-tilt surplus ammo. Oh well, let them have at it.
I know Junior or the Mrs. would have much more fun with the easier-shooting variety, but what do I know...


Powder puff cast bullet loads and a full-tilt jacketed load.

 

[jhrosier]

.... all the shooters here seem to favor the neanderthal recoil and noise of full-tilt surplus ammo.....

I think that you may have given me the solution to my problem...

I have a couple hundred round belt of 7.62x54 Ruskie machine gun ammo that I will never shoot.

It must be worth enough to buy 4 or 5 thousand gas checks.

Jack

 

[NavelOfficer]

Kool! I don't have any belted ammo, but I do have some of the Sh-KAS A/C MG ammo.



Going to load up some of Norm's 150g in 6.5mm. Only have WST powder, but I'm going to run 8.0g to start. Just shot off the last of the 266469s, so I'm running on empty now.

 

[Steve Marshall]

Commercial gas checks aren't cheap anymore. Call it $30 a thousand. You might have bought an inferior product. I'm pretty sure there are tools out there that are quite easy to use. If not, find loads to work without them. The other alternative and that's primarily what this thread is about after all is to use your scrounging ability to find inexpensive jacketed bullets. You'd be hard pressed to find sufficient quantity for a lifetime, but then you can address the other reason for this thread, fun.

 

[DW357]

I need to try some cast lead bullets in my A3 and K31...

Though I don't cast my own so the cost will be much higher. Also hate to tap into my stash of 2400 powder...my go to 357 mag powder.

 

[mac1911]

Been there, done that.
I bought the tool and gave it the old college try. The tool is somewhere in the cellar, I don't expect something without any work on my part, however, making gas checks one at a time with hand tools is way more trouble than it is worth.

If I am not able to use un-checked cast bullets @1600, I might either back the loads off a couple hundred fps or look for a cheaper source of checks.

As I recall, the National Guard used plain lead bullets in their gallery cartridges a centry ago. I wonder if the cartridges were loaded with gas checks. My instinct tells me no.

BTW, clay birds offhand @50 yds or from a rest at longer ranges is an awfull lot of fun and probably a good way to introduce a new shooter to the sport.


Jack

Gallery loads where really slow....think pistol velocities.

 

[mac1911]

I need to try some cast lead bullets in my A3 and K31...

Though I don't cast my own so the cost will be much higher. Also hate to tap into my stash of 2400 powder...my go to 357 mag powder.

You can use reduced loads of H4895 also per hodgdon web site. They are easy on the shoulder and conserve powder. Key to cast is dedicate your barrel to cast or jacketed.
I use 7 grains of green dot with my culled cast bullets in 314" for The mosin and 303 brit wheel weight lead no gas checks.
If They run 1000 fps that would be about The max. They are good to about 100 yards and basically are good 2liter bottle accuracy and I can tell you when you hand a young kid a mosin 91/30 and They pop off a 2 liter bottle at 100 yards with out breaking their shoulder The smiles are hard to wipe away.
The copper fouling realling likes to grab lead.

 

[mac1911]

I need to try some cast lead bullets in my A3 and K31...

Though I don't cast my own so the cost will be much higher. Also hate to tap into my stash of 2400 powder...my go to 357 mag powder.

You can use reduced loads of H4895 also per hodgdon web site. They are easy on the shoulder and conserve powder. Key to cast is dedicate your barrel to cast or jacketed.
The copper fouling realling likes to grab lead.

 

[1919FAN]

Ive used Ed Harrris's the load in 45-70 ,303 308 30 06 762x54 8mm mauser and have had great results with cast and jacketed heads and light loads of red dot are safer than 2400 not much worry of secondary explosive effect.

 

[mac1911]

Ive used Ed Harrris's the load in 45-70 ,303 308 30 06 762x54 8mm mauser and have had great results with cast and jacketed heads and light loads of red dot are safer than 2400 not much worry of secondary explosive effect.

I don't know a lot about secondary explosive effect but my bit of reading is that it's more of a issue when reducing "rifle"
Powders.....this I suspect is why reduced loads are often used with "shotgun/pistol " powders.
The big warning I believe is to be super careful not to double charge. Also many of these reduced loads are not ment for larger cal and cases.
Ed Harris warns of the limitations of case size and reduced loads.
All though nothing was destroyed and no one hurt a club friend had some very strange issues when he loaded is 30 carbine with W296 several grains to light...had a few very harsh reports and a few case jams before he stopped.

2400 has been around a very long time as has red dot. Reloaders been light loading with these powders for decades.

Also I have not seen to many warnings on this explosion effect. I don't recall seeing anything in my Lyman manual either and there are many powders listed.

I'm also not to sure what is,more dangerous a slow or fast powder ?

If indeed faster powders are a danger then red dot is at a greater risk than 2400... 2400 sits about 90 steps slower than red dot on those powder burn rate charts.
I,think it's the slower powders that are a danger of secondary explosion? If that's the case 2400 is still not to slow as it stands on those charts.

Hodgdon only recommends reduced loads of H4895 in loads listed that use H4895 and it has its limits.

That's from what hodgdon says is the slowest safest powder to reduce loads in.

You must be careful and proceed with caution no matter what you do. Plenty of load data out there and as always a call or email to the powder manufactures will yield good infom

 

[Steve Marshall]

SEE is rumored to occur with small charges of slow rifle powders. There have been many attempts to replicate but I've not heard of anyone doing so on demand. I don't understand how the idea of SEE got traction if you can't get any other than anecdotal stories. Presumably, the combustion space is so large within the cartridge case that the powder detonates rather than burn. On the face of it, that's possible I guess, similar to the tales of muzzleloaders with a space between powder and bullet exploding which is supposedly well documented. But even that, logically, falls apart when you consider cartridges loaded with black powder certainly had space between the powder and bullet.

 

[NavelOfficer]

Bumped the WST load to 10.0g and things got up to the point of aim. Also seated the bullets to the crimp groove.
Now, get someone that can actually see and I'm sure results could be better.. Personally, I don't think the reduced loads are the culprit.



Initial attempt with 8.0g WST...





Seemed to find quite a few of the Al gas checks about 5 meters from the muzzle with the 8.0g load.
My first purchases of the 6.5 bullet had copper gas checks (see earlier pic of red and gold bullets). Norm must be making his own now for 6.5mm. They (aluminum gc) don't stay on as well as the copper variety.

 

[1919FAN]

The problem with 2400 is that dual based powders dont like having excess space in the case which causes crazy pressue spikes, Ive personally seen a ruger black hawk in 44 mag with half the cylinder and the top strap completely blown off the gun, when the remaining ammo was pulled and weighed it was all at 11grs. of 2400 ,I'm not trying to scare anyone just inform I'm a 3rd generation competition shooter and reloader and in 45 years of doing it ive seen some crazy shit.

SEE is rumored to occur with small charges of slow rifle powders. There have been many attempts to replicate but I've not heard of anyone doing so on demand. I don't understand how the idea of SEE got traction if you can't get any other than anecdotal stories. Presumably, the combustion space is so large within the cartridge case that the powder detonates rather than burn. On the face of it, that's possible I guess, similar to the tales of muzzleloaders with a space between powder and bullet exploding which is supposedly well documented. But even that, logically, falls apart when you consider cartridges loaded with black powder certainly had space between the powder and bullet.

 

[mac1911]

The problem with 2400 is that dual based powders dont like having excess space in the case which causes crazy pressue spikes, Ive personally seen a ruger black hawk in 44 mag with half the cylinder and the top strap completely blown off the gun, when the remaining ammo was pulled and weighed it was all at 11grs. of 2400 ,I'm not trying to scare anyone just inform I'm a 3rd generation competition shooter and reloader and in 45 years of doing it ive seen some crazy shit.

Its hard to tell exactly what happened.....could have easily been a double charge even though all the other unfired cartridges weighed out ok.... how much 2400 can fit into a 44 mag case? 25 grains?

I agree things can happen and sometimes are hard to explain. I have been using 2400 for a few years now and all have been on 30 cal cases like 06, 8mm mauser, 54r , 7.7 jap all with cast loads. Im very very wary of the double charge as I know that will not go over well.

 

[1919FAN]

All the cases were loaded the same 11grs. He was half way thru the box when the gun came apart . Its impossible to overload 44 mag with a 240 gr. head to the point of that kind of destruction when the common load back then was 22.5 of 2400 and thats on the cusp of being a compressed powder charge. The old timers always used kapoc (angel hair) on top of the powder charge of 21grs. of 2400 in a 45-70 with a 405 lead the phenomenon happens when the powder ignites at opposite ends of the case simultaneously because of the excess room dual base powders like 2400 can tend to explode and not burn.

 

[mac1911]

All the cases were loaded the same 11grs. He was half way thru the box when the gun came apart . Its impossible to overload 44 mag with a 240 gr. head to the point of that kind of destruction when the common load back then was 22.5 of 2400 and thats on the cusp of being a compressed powder charge. The old timers always used kapoc (angel hair) on top of the powder charge of 21grs. of 2400 in a 45-70 with a 405 lead the phenomenon happens when the powder ignites at opposite ends of the case simultaneously because of the excess room dual base powders like 2400 can tend to explode and not burn.

Then there is the debate of using fillers also.. known to cause problems of their own....
It not matter what the unfired cases measure. We will never really know what was in the case that was in the cylinder when the gun let go. Could have been a slow build up of other loads in the past.
I'm not to up on Ruger black hawks but I have seen a few cracked cylinders over the years.
All good to at least know the potential problems. You can read to your hearts content and you will get some back on forth on reduced loads, filler and such.

 

[jhrosier]

Hi Guys!

Sorry but I had to go to w*rk.
I'm willing to concede that 2400 might not be the best powder for reduced loads if it will get us back on track.
The 13 grs of Red Dot seems to be a good choice for now. It shows good accuracy and I have a bunch of it. The 13 gr load fills the 30-06 case about half full, so a double charge would be pretty obvious.

Water dropping the cast bullets nominally doubles the hardness. Anyone want to speculate whether the increased hardness might eliminate the need for a gas check.

 

[mac1911]

Hi Guys!

Sorry but I had to go to w*rk.
I'm willing to concede that 2400 might not be the best powder for reduced loads if it will get us back on track.
The 13 grs of Red Dot seems to be a good choice for now. It shows good accuracy and I have a bunch of it. The 13 gr load fills the 30-06 case about half full, so a double charge would be pretty obvious.

Water dropping the cast bullets nominally doubles the hardness. Anyone want to speculate whether the increased hardness might eliminate the need for a gas check.

Hard lead is not always the answer to any leading issues that will turn up with higher velocities.
Push your velocity with no gas checks until you see lead fouling ?

 

[Steve Marshall]

Water dropping will increase hardness a couple of points dependent on alloy but certainly not double. Bullet size is far more important than hardness. An undersized hard bullet will contribute to leading far more than a properly sized "soft" bullet.