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The John Kelly Memorial Practical Shooting Match - PLANNING THREAD

I have the old score sheets that can be updated to reflect this new match. I also still have the spreadsheet with the calculations for the way I described before. Basically the shooter with the best score for the stage gets 100 match points. Everyone else on that stage gets a percentage of the 100 points based on how well they did compared to the stage winner (same way USPSA stage points are awarded). This is done per division. Then add up all the match points and the one with the most wins! So, guess this means I volunteer for scorer duty if you want to use this scoring system.... unless someone else would like this job :)
 
MAShooter said:
So, guess this means I volunteer for scorer duty if you want to use this scoring system.... unless someone else would like this job :)
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Thanks Dave... I agree, I'm sure we can simply score all stages the same way the particular discipline does it... then get a stage results list by division and award stage points based on percentage. Remember, in order to compete for the bragging rights someone would need to complete all stages so once we figure out the percentage breakdown based on how many people are in each division we can apply that across the board - there will be the same number of shooters in each division on all 6 stages. In other words, if a 5th place finish in a particular division would get 89.36% then whoever comes in 5th in IDPA, USPSA, Steel Challenge, PPC, Walls of Steel, and the indoor pit would get that same 89.36%. First place on a stage gets 100.00%...
 
John-
I can help out with ROing and whatever else you need just let me know.

Rather than try and figure out a list of divisions from USPSA / IDPA ect... it might be easier if you keep them simple. Perhaps somehting like this

Iron Sights
Optics
Revolver
Single Stack 1911's (because that is what I always watched JK shoot)

Limit the round count to 10 rounds in the mag (and top off) to level the playing field since the equipment everyone will be using will vary. This will allow the broadest range of equipment to go head to head IMO.
The idea of shooters with 10 rounds or less going against 17-20 rounds + doesn't seem right.

-Matt...
 
NBPD3682 said:
In other words, if a 5th place finish in a particular division would get 89.36% then whoever comes in 5th in IDPA, USPSA, Steel Challenge, PPC, Walls of Steel, and the indoor pit would get that same 89.36%. First place on a stage gets 100.00%...
Click to expand...

No, thats not what Dave meant, or how it was done. The scoring was based on per stage, then a total
Say the 5th place competitor on one stage finished with 89.36% of the 100% first place competitor, he or she gets that 89.36 points for that stage, doesn't matter what place they finished in, the 89.36 was the percentage of the winners score they earned.
Say on another stage they also finished 5th, but at only 50% of the stage winners score, they'd get 50 as their points, not 89.36 for finishing 5th. Then all the %'s for each of their finishes gets totaled into a final score. so points aren't based on where you finish, but rather what you earned, then totaled.

And screw the limiting to 10 business. John never complained about that. Shoot what you bring, if you dont think it's fair, bring something else.
Nothing is equal, a revolver isnt equal with a single stack, optics arent equal with iron sights, a widebody isn't equal with a single stack when it comes to reloading. We can nit pick all day on what is or isnt equal. when it comes right down to it, people bought and shoot what they chose to. It was their decision, and we need to live with our decisions.
 
And screw the limiting to 10 business. John never complained about that.
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I suggest that this event be convened as a "meeting of equals" as far as the different sports are concerned.

Each of the sports has its own value system - IDPA believed in 10 round limits and retained magazines; USPSA believes it's OK to drop mags with ammo left, and only imposes limits in certain divisions. Apply the limits used in each of the disciplines to it's stage(s), with only the minimal amount of changes necessary to allow IDPA people to shoot USPSA stages, Steel shooters to shoot USPSA and IDPA, etc.

Simply saying "screw the 10 round limit" would elevate the value system of one of the component sports above that of another, which is not the best way to assure that people from all the different action sports feel equally welcome.
 
Each Discipline needs to be shot under the rules they are governed by. Relax only the firearm. IDPA is a 10 round sport so a USPSA Limited or open shooter would be restricted to 10 rounds. An IDPA shooter shooting a USPSA stage can use what he/she has. If they have full cap mags, good on them. If they don't, they just reload a little more. No big deal. Walls Stages were 10 round stages too.

The match in New bedford ran this way IIRC I could be wrong as it made no difference to me then I shot revolver. [wink]
 
38supermatt said:
Nothing is equal, a revolver isnt equal with a single stack, optics arent equal with iron sights, a widebody isn't equal with a single stack when it comes to reloading. We can nit pick all day on what is or isnt equal. when it comes right down to it, people bought and shoot what they chose to. It was their decision, and we need to live with our decisions.
Click to expand...

Which is why I threw out the idea of keeping SEPARATE divisions simple with
Iron Sights
Optics
Revolver
Single Stack 1911's

That is how many of the steel matches I shoot are run in an attempt to keep things somewhat competitive.

Matt, think of it like going into a boxing match where your opponent is required to wear boxing gloves and you don't have to wear any if you don't want to. It was just my suggestion, which is what the guys reached out to us for. I was thinking about those that don't shoot USPSA or those who don't have limited / open gear.

I'll shoot whatever equipment I am allowed to... but I have the gear.

I'm off my soap box...
 
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MFP 4073 said:
Which is why I threw out the idea of keeping SEPARATE divisions simple with
Iron Sights
Optics
Revolver
Single Stack 1911's

That is how many of the steel matches I shoot are run in an attempt to keep things somewhat competitive.
Click to expand...

I have no issue with different divisions, I think thats a good idea, and figured that was how it was being run anyway. Never questioned that. But you threw out there the whole, limit mag capacity to 10 business- specifically-
"Limit the round count to 10 rounds in the mag (and top off) to level the playing field since the equipment everyone will be using will vary."
That didnt appear to pertain to any one type of division, but across all of them, in every event, which seems entirely unneccessary.
I understand limiting the capacity in the events that those are the rules in, such as an IDPA stage. makes complete sense. But elsewhere, in events with no limits, instituting a magazine capacity limit seems like a pointless restriction.
 
Matt, after re-reading, you are right. I should have been more clear about which divisions I was thinking about with regards to round count. I was thinking mostly in terms of using limited equipment (because that is what I like) against other iron sighted guns. Perhaps open should have no limitations as usual. I was really offering up ideas in hopes to bring about discussion, which is basically what you and I ended up doing about this. I believe we both have valid points and I am sure others with have some as well. This is going to be a great match regardless of how the guys decide to proceed on the formalities of scoring, divisions ect...
 
Quick simple thought with the idea of ease on the scorers would be to limit it to iron sights with just a revolver and an auto division. I don't know if you can predict how many shooters will show up and with just two divisions it might be easier to score and run if you get a really big turnout.

Dave
 
Dnotarianni said:
Quick simple thought with the idea of ease on the scorers would be to limit it to iron sights with just a revolver and an auto division. I don't know if you can predict how many shooters will show up and with just two divisions it might be easier to score and run if you get a really big turnout.

Dave
Click to expand...


So the open division guys have to sit on the sidelines? [wink]
 
If you want to narrow down the division list, I think you can't go narrower than Open, Limited, and Revolver. If you're going to add more, why not just use the USPSA divisions? The only IDPA division that gets left out is SSR and we can always make a certificate for the two guys that shoot it. [laugh]
 
jar said:
If you want to narrow down the division list, I think you can't go narrower than Open, Limited, and Revolver. If you're going to add more, why not just use the USPSA divisions? The only IDPA division that gets left out is SSR and we can always make a certificate for the two guys that shoot it. [laugh]
Click to expand...

Wouldn't replacing Limited with Production, or at least L10, give more IDPA people a shot - literally?
 
I meant Limited as a catchall for all iron sight guns. Replacing it with Production would eliminate USPSA limited and SS shooters and IDPA ESP and CDP shooters. Once you add a second iron sight semi-auto division, it's a slippery slope to all of them.
 
Whatever New Bedford did forthe GOAL Pistol Masters Cup would be perfect for this match. I wouldn't worry about changing anything from how they did that. I remember talking to John at that match and remember him having a good time. I actually taped him on the USPSA stage that day after discussing with him how I had shot it but I've looked everywhere and can't find the footage.

I do remember the PPC stage being kind of odd to shoot. If you would change anything, I would make that stage more Bullseye-like. I don't think John ever shot much PPC, if any. I do know he liked Bullseye. I actually met him when we started shooting Bullseye together in the first and only AFS Bullseye league run by Henri about seven years ago. I'm sure some of you might remember that when John got mad when he missed a bunch of steel or had a jam, he often went "bullseye" and shot the steel or stage strong hand only.
 
GTOShootr said:
I do remember the PPC stage being kind of odd to shoot. If you would change anything, I would make that stage more Bullseye-like. I don't think John ever shot much PPC, if any. I do know he liked Bullseye. I actually met him when we started shooting Bullseye together in the first and only AFS Bullseye league run by Henri about seven years ago. I'm sure some of you might remember that when John got mad when he missed a bunch of steel or had a jam, he often went "bullseye" and shot the steel or stage strong hand only.
Click to expand...

That's good info... I agree. I too remember John going "bullseye" is some matches. Funny how you can remember some things like they were yesterday.
 
GTOShootr said:
Whatever New Bedford did forthe GOAL Pistol Masters Cup would be perfect for this match. I wouldn't worry about changing anything from how they did that. I remember talking to John at that match and remember him having a good time. I actually taped him on the USPSA stage that day after discussing with him how I had shot it but I've looked everywhere and can't find the footage.

I do remember the PPC stage being kind of odd to shoot. If you would change anything, I would make that stage more Bullseye-like. I don't think John ever shot much PPC, if any. I do know he liked Bullseye. I actually met him when we started shooting Bullseye together in the first and only AFS Bullseye league run by Henri about seven years ago. I'm sure some of you might remember that when John got mad when he missed a bunch of steel or had a jam, he often went "bullseye" and shot the steel or stage strong hand only.
Click to expand...

John shot PPC in Malden a few times last year. HE shot fairly well, if my memory serves.
 
Supermoto said:
So the open division guys have to sit on the sidelines? [wink]
Click to expand...

Not trying to leave anybody out! Just thinking that IDPA is iron sights and PPC was all iron when I shot it in the early 90's at Coppicut. Next idea is have 3 divisions, auto, revolver, and open. Just thinking about the KISS principal, Keep It Simple Stupid, and refine the divisions or add to them next year.
 
IMHO - if the goal is to try and keep this a simple fun crossover match (without awards) I would keep it very simple and have two Main Divisions - Open and Limited.

And then for the folks concerned about Divisions/Catagories - have Sub-Catagories for bragging rights.
One way to see if a Divisions/Catagory should be recognized could be by the number of competitiors shooting.
In order for a Sub-Catagory to be recognized there must be (pick a number- let's say) a minimum of 3 competitiors in that Sub-Catagory.
The Sub-Catagories would be determined by the IDPA and USPSA rule book.

As far as # of round in a mag, etc.- I would let the Course of Fire (IDPA and USPSA rules) dictate that and have it clearly spelled out in the stage briefing.

Again - just my humble opinion.

Paul
 
Red dots were/are allowed in PPC. I used to shoot a red dot at the Copicut match in the late 90's. That's where I first started to compete with pistols. It got a little out of hand from there.
 

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