The comprehensive, omnibus Mountain Bike Thread

Supermoto

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Here's the thing:
1. They DO tear up the trails more than we do. Especially if they've been tweaked (and there are a zillion Youtube videos now on how).
2. They hold speed in places where when pedaling you'd be likely to decelerate naturally. In fact, that's part of how we design in trail management for diverse populations - we oftentimes put in features specifically for speed control of mountain bikers. Oh, and as for speed limits: there are places that have them. Example:
Canal Heritage Trail: Welcome to the Farmington Canal Heritage Trail (Posted 15, at least Cheshire to Hamden)
3. "Getting more people out" is a laudable goal, but not if it gets people to venture out and into places they're really not prepared for (see my comment about backcountry, above).
And the biggie:
4. We're STILL fighting the access battle, and STILL considered "two-wheeled locusts" by several and many constituency groups. These people never welcomed us - despite the mountain of evidence we're roughly as impactful as the hikers, and far less so than the equestrians and motorized guys - and would like nothing more than to boot us, despite the work we've done to preserve, protect, and maintain the resource. They're absolutely salivating at the idea of being able to conflate mountain bikes with motorcycles.
1. How do they tear up the trails more? Power? Are we going to ban riders that can put down a lot of watts? Most Ebiker I see are not putting down combine watts anywhere near a good rider on a non E bike. Is it the weight? No Fat riders on heavy bikes?

2. So can pedaling harder, plus a lot of speed checks are the same for everyone regardless of bike, it comes down to skill, throw in a corner or log over and the better rider will be faster

3. Being prepared has nothing to do with bike and everything to do with the rider.

4. Everyone wants to ban what they don't like. Fudds are happy to throw AR15s under the bus to keep their rights. This is no different.
 

SpaceCritter

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1. How do they tear up the trails more? Power? Are we going to ban riders that can put down a lot of watts? Most Ebiker I see are not putting down combine watts anywhere near a good rider on a non E bike. Is it the weight? No Fat riders on heavy bikes?

2. So can pedaling harder, plus a lot of speed checks are the same for everyone regardless of bike, it comes down to skill, throw in a corner or log over and the better rider will be faster

3. Being prepared has nothing to do with bike and everything to do with the rider.

4. Everyone wants to ban what they don't like. Fudds are happy to throw AR15s under the bus to keep their rights. This is no different.
1. While it's possible for anyone to go out of their way to rip up a trail - pretty anyone out today would here cuz thaw... are you honestly telling me you don't think there's a difference in overall impact between non-motorized and motorized, especially when considering people ARE tweaking their e-bikes to put out far more power than spec? And let's not be comparing a rockstar mountain biker versus an average off-the-shelf e-bike.

2. ...but if you're dealing with a user group than exert power without physical exertion, the temptation would be to do it. Contending with this in places where e-bikes are appropriate will require a different set of trail design parameters, especially on a shared-use network.

3. The shops are under tremendous pressure from the industry to sell the things. Consequently, there isn't likely to be impetus to have a heart-to-heart with the customer about wise-use: "just because you CAN ride this thing into the middle of some gnarly-assed patch of wildlands doesn't mean you SHOULD." I tend to ride solo, and in some pretty rugged places. Hence, I carry that pack-o-wonder with gear to help get me out of a scrape, plus pre-trip planning and communication with family about where I'm going, communications tools (even my ham HT if cell is shitty), etc. And even then I know my limits. Have a major mechanical, and in the worst case, I can still do the Walk of Shame out. You hear ALL THE TIME about ill-prepared (and sometimes pretty well prepared) hikers getting themselves into trouble... and that's on foot, not just motoring along. If people starting having S&Rs called out for them because of these things, the land managers won't be happy.

And speaking of...

4. Apples and oranges. One is a Constitutionally-protected right. The other is recreating on someone else's land, whether that "someone else" is a private landowner or the taxpayers, and your presence there is predicated on their good graces. Ultimately what matters isn't what WE think, it's what the LAND MANAGERS think. The 800-lb gorilla of LMs here in Connecticut is DEEP. We have a pretty good working relationship with them. Nevertheless, in recent history (past year or so), I've seen two projects - plans submitted, fully vetted and approved, our guys in place with tools at the ready - put on hold indefinitely. In one case, it was due to neighbors, some of whom frankly don't like bikes. In another, an "Advisory Board" (most of whom aren't crazy about bikes either) suddenly weighed in. Again, these projects were a long time in planning, and fully vetted and approved. I know of another case - municipal land near me - where we were given the green light on a project after FIVE YEARS (held up cuz one neighbor couple really, REALLY didn't like bikes, and only allowed to proceed after they moved)... only to face roadblocks cuz certain people (ready for it?) didn't like the NAMES the trails were given - they thought they "encouraged reckless activity" somehow (in fact, they were related to the history of the property). Unlike a traditional dirt bike (which you can hear for miles), e-bikes are quiet, even when tweaked. In many instances you can't really tell it's an e-bike until you get up close. This provides ample opportunity for those people who frankly don't like us and don't want us there, to whisper in LMs' ears, "Well, you're going to have a hard time telling them apart, anyway, so best to prohibit ALL two-wheeled contraptions." They're itching to do it. And we're far from their user constituency with the most clout. (Again, as we found out with those two on-hold projects.)

Nobody's saying there isn't a place for e-bikes. I'm saying they need to be treated like the critters they are, and that means there are places they simply aren't a good match. They need to work with LMs to build places that are.
 

Supermoto

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I still don't see how Ebikes do more damage even if they are modded. Riders making ruts, skidding into and thru corners, run wide and widening trail, braiding trails are all independent of type of bike. Ebikes aren't throwing a roost when they are being pedaled

And I don't see how exerting power without pedaling is any different that exerting power while pedaling. I would bet that me grinding up a steep hill on my SS, putting down as much power as I can, is doing more damage to a trail with my intermittent torque and wheel slippage than an ebike smoothly riding up.

I tend to see two groups with ebikes. Older men with their combine wattage is only slightly higher than the battery max. They are out there enjoying the trail. They are slow everywhere and need the help getting up hills. It's ebike or no bike. And then there are the e-shuttlers, riding up long hills with battery assist instead of shuttling up in a truck. They will be blasting down the trail at the same speed no matter if they have a battery or not. I rather have them ride up on batteries than a truck

Regarding land access, just because hiker's and horse people are dicks to us, doesn't mean we should be the same to ebikers. We need to be in the LM ear to be inclusive and have the ebikers join in with us to keep access open to all.
 

SpaceCritter

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I still don't see how Ebikes do more damage even if they are modded. Riders making ruts, skidding into and thru corners, run wide and widening trail, braiding trails are all independent of type of bike. Ebikes aren't throwing a roost when they are being pedaled

And I don't see how exerting power without pedaling is any different that exerting power while pedaling. I would bet that me grinding up a steep hill on my SS, putting down as much power as I can, is doing more damage to a trail with my intermittent torque and wheel slippage than an ebike smoothly riding up.

I tend to see two groups with ebikes. Older men with their combine wattage is only slightly higher than the battery max. They are out there enjoying the trail. They are slow everywhere and need the help getting up hills. It's ebike or no bike. And then there are the e-shuttlers, riding up long hills with battery assist instead of shuttling up in a truck. They will be blasting down the trail at the same speed no matter if they have a battery or not. I rather have them ride up on batteries than a truck
At this point, we're probably going to have to wait and see what the studies show. We had to produce a significant amount of literature to get/keep access, showing we're not the ogres we were (and in some cases still are) made out to be. I'm not convinced the same applies to e-motors.

Regarding land access, just because hiker's and horse people are dicks to us, doesn't mean we should be the same to ebikers. We need to be in the LM ear to be inclusive and have the ebikers join in with us to keep access open to all.
First, it isn't "hikers and horse people" - in case you were unaware, there's a pretty vast variety of user groups on these lands. Birders, dog-poopers (the biggest group around here), geocachers, campers, Scouts, ... and especially HUNTERS, who actually pay $$$ to use the lands via taxes and permit fees. And there's the neighbors who may have never set foot there before, but who don't like the traffic and have the ear of State Senator Belfry. I'm going to be an a**h*** and ask: how many miles of trail have you built and maintained? And where? The political environment in the South is different from the Pacific Northwest, is different from northern New England (which has a presumption of open to passive recreational use unless posted), is different from Connecticut (which has the opposite presumption). This is shit we've had to come to deal with, over many years with many people spending many thousand hours doing research, in front of boards and commissions, at hearings, ... And that's before a single Rogue Hoe hits the dirt. If the e-bike guys think it's important, they can put the time in, too. And I'm not opposed to that, or working with them to get stuff that's fine for them to ride. For that matter, I wish the full-on motor guys well: Connecticut craps all over them immensely, making it very difficult to find anywhere to ride legally.

But as for inclusiveness: I'm not a fan. I never have been. I had a bad experience with a certain well-known non-profit, and have since adopted the rule that "Diversity for diversity's sake is a mistake." I'm also firmly convinced (and speaking of advocacy) that the gay rights people did themselves a tremendous disservice allowing the alphabet soup people to hitch to their wagons. Great thing about this being NES: I can say that here. Not that I haven't elsewhere. [grin]
 

hminsky

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I just ordered an ebike which is kind of a mountain-bike/commuter hybrid


It is pretty heavy (32kg) and I've never had an ebike before, but am looking forward to using this on the road and on easy trails. I don't want to do anything crazy.
But I tried a mid range ebike out and really enjoyed it, so I'm going to get some exercise with this thing while enjoying getting a boost going up the hills around
where I live.

The company that makes it is Chinese, and the bike is being shipped by sea in a group buy, so won't be here until Spring. I'm a little
worried about how to get service, i.e., what mechanics are around my area who know how to fix/tune these kinds of
machines. I'd assume there are good bike mechanics who are expanding into e-bike technology, but it seems like a new
frontier wild west situation at the moment.



 

SpaceCritter

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I just ordered an ebike which is kind of a mountain-bike/commuter hybrid


It is pretty heavy (32kg) and I've never had an ebike before, but am looking forward to using this on the road and on easy trails. I don't want to do anything crazy.
But I tried a mid range ebike out and really enjoyed it, so I'm going to get some exercise with this thing while enjoying getting a boost going up the hills around
where I live.

The company that makes it is Chinese, and the bike is being shipped by sea in a group buy, so won't be here until Spring. I'm a little
worried about how to get service, i.e., what mechanics are around my area who know how to fix/tune these kinds of
machines. I'd assume there are good bike mechanics who are expanding into e-bike technology, but it seems like a new
frontier wild west situation at the moment.



It sounds like a good match for you and where you're riding it. [grin]
 

atmay

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I just ordered an ebike which is kind of a mountain-bike/commuter hybrid


It is pretty heavy (32kg) and I've never had an ebike before, but am looking forward to using this on the road and on easy trails. I don't want to do anything crazy.
But I tried a mid range ebike out and really enjoyed it, so I'm going to get some exercise with this thing while enjoying getting a boost going up the hills around
where I live.

The company that makes it is Chinese, and the bike is being shipped by sea in a group buy, so won't be here until Spring. I'm a little
worried about how to get service, i.e., what mechanics are around my area who know how to fix/tune these kinds of
machines. I'd assume there are good bike mechanics who are expanding into e-bike technology, but it seems like a new
frontier wild west situation at the moment.



32kg?! Holy sweet baby Jesus. That’s a lot of bike. I don’t even like lifting my 11kg bike onto the rack (or my 7kg bike, for that matter).
 

Supermoto

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But as for inclusiveness: I'm not a fan. I never have been. I had a bad experience with a certain well-known non-profit, and have since adopted the rule that "Diversity for diversity's sake is a mistake." I'm also firmly convinced (and speaking of advocacy) that the gay rights people did themselves a tremendous disservice allowing the alphabet soup people to hitch to their wagons. Great thing about this being NES: I can say that here. Not that I haven't elsewhere. [grin]
Its not diversity for diversity sake, they are cyclist. They want to ride the same trails we do. And having a bigger voice with both of us joined together will help.
Just because they haven't put in the time and effort that mtn biker have in trail access doesn't mean they should be excluded.

.
 

mtnbiker26

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I just ordered an ebike which is kind of a mountain-bike/commuter hybrid


It is pretty heavy (32kg) and I've never had an ebike before, but am looking forward to using this on the road and on easy trails. I don't want to do anything crazy.
But I tried a mid range ebike out and really enjoyed it, so I'm going to get some exercise with this thing while enjoying getting a boost going up the hills around
where I live.

The company that makes it is Chinese, and the bike is being shipped by sea in a group buy, so won't be here until Spring. I'm a little
worried about how to get service, i.e., what mechanics are around my area who know how to fix/tune these kinds of
machines. I'd assume there are good bike mechanics who are expanding into e-bike technology, but it seems like a new
frontier wild west situation at the moment.



Just be aware that a lot of shops won’t touch it if it’s not one of the established motor systems like Brose, Shimano Steps, Raleigh/Currie, etc.
The last e-bike bottom bracket I replaced was on a Turbo Levo with a Brose motor. BB is not replaceable so the whole motor comes out and gets replaced. It was $2200 parts and labor and took me almost six hours.
 

mtnbiker26

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E-bike Action Magazine. Lol. Not to stir the pot but this kinda backs up some of Space Critter's comments regarding E-MTB access on multi-use trails. How do you define this machine? Do you allow it? Do you not allow it? Where's the line? Is there a possibility that some knucklehead on one of these gets us all booted? No one knows yet.

On another note, the industry buzz is that Shimano's new gearbox is going to revolutionize E-bikes. The gearbox concept has been around for a while but it's heavier and less efficient than derailleur systems so it never became popular when we were all weight weenies. Now that we have 45 pound E-bikes with 1 HP motors a lot of folks will gladly take on another pound or two of weight to gain a transmission and not have to learn how to shift. It's great for a disabled person who physically can't operate a shifter but not great if it attracts more lazy nitwits to the trails who are more apt to litter, be obnoxious, discourteous or otherwise poor ambassadors to mountain biking. Difficult activities inherently exclude most of the idiots and that's always benefitted hikers and mountain bikers. A new generation of E-bikes that are super easy to operate might be great for commuters but it's easy to question whether there will be negative impacts on the trails.

1577506101203.png
 

hminsky

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32kg?! Holy sweet baby Jesus. That’s a lot of bike. I don’t even like lifting my 11kg bike onto the rack (or my 7kg bike, for that matter).
Yeah the bike is at least as much motorcycle than bicycle, God forbid I have to pedal it with no battery assist for any distance, or lift it onto the bike rack on our car by myself. I looked at some 'lighter' e-bikes that were 50 lbs and under, but they get really expensive under that weight, so I figured why fight it if it's going to be heavy at least it will have a motor that
can fly up a hill.
 

Ipe

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I asked Philip. He said he knew about it before we did, but beyond that... [hmmm]

It's watch and wait, I guess.
I heard once that unlike fine wine and cheese, bad news does not improve with age. Keeping mum and doing Jack Sheet isn't endearing KTA to anyone. They need to announce WTH they are going to do to fix this issue. I hope that Philip and by extension NEMBA can assist in some way
 

SpaceCritter

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To get us off the subject of bickering over e-bikes, as well as the sadness/anger/bewilderment over the KT situation, let us once again consider:

SpaceCritter's Stinky Laundry
[party]

In our last episode, I noted that, due to the bikasaurus stink, my two-loads-per-week are segregated into Stinky (bike stuff, gym stuff, socks, underwear, and certain things that managed to get mixed in and thus Designated Stinky) and NotStinky (everything else), and that the Stinky load gets Mirazyme in the rinse cycle (via the fabric softener dispenser). While it hasn't exorcised bikasaurus completely, it has knocked it back to a dull roar.

Today's was a Big Stinky Load:

20191229_104853corr.jpg

I needed TWO scoops of Mirazyme for this one. [grin]

The underwear count says two weeks, but that can't be right as it doesn't jibe with the socks, even allowing an occasional reuse of a pair, so I'm guessing I must've missed a few last time I did a Stinky load. The two bike shorts are new - Christmas presents - as is the armored Zoic liner (cuz SpaceCritter is a clumsy Aspie). Gym beanie is all the way to the left. I didn't wash gloves or armor cuz I still need to keep the bears away (four legged and two), and the RUSH12 pack is still pretty much a lost cause.

You're welcome for sharing. [smile]

Oh, and speaking of Christmas presents: I also put into service my new forestry helmet and chainsaw chaps. That got me thinking: have you ever wondered why they speak of "assless" chaps? They're assless by definition - that's what makes them chaps.

🤔

[laugh]
 

atmay

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To get us off the subject of bickering over e-bikes, as well as the sadness/anger/bewilderment over the KT situation, let us once again consider:

SpaceCritter's Stinky Laundry
[party]

In our last episode, I noted that, due to the bikasaurus stink, my two-loads-per-week are segregated into Stinky (bike stuff, gym stuff, socks, underwear, and certain things that managed to get mixed in and thus Designated Stinky) and NotStinky (everything else), and that the Stinky load gets Mirazyme in the rinse cycle (via the fabric softener dispenser). While it hasn't exorcised bikasaurus completely, it has knocked it back to a dull roar.

Today's was a Big Stinky Load:

View attachment 320921

I needed TWO scoops of Mirazyme for this one. [grin]

The underwear count says two weeks, but that can't be right as it doesn't jibe with the socks, even allowing an occasional reuse of a pair, so I'm guessing I must've missed a few last time I did a Stinky load. The two bike shorts are new - Christmas presents - as is the armored Zoic liner (cuz SpaceCritter is a clumsy Aspie). Gym beanie is all the way to the left. I didn't wash gloves or armor cuz I still need to keep the bears away (four legged and two), and the RUSH12 pack is still pretty much a lost cause.

You're welcome for sharing. [smile]

Oh, and speaking of Christmas presents: I also put into service my new forestry helmet and chainsaw chaps. That got me thinking: have you ever wondered why they speak of "assless" chaps? They're assless by definition - that's what makes them chaps.

🤔

[laugh]
Two weeks? I could bike for a YEAR with that much clothing [laugh]

Two weeks is a pair of bibs, a jersey and two pairs of socks!
 

SpaceCritter

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Two weeks? I could bike for a YEAR with that much clothing [laugh]

Two weeks is a pair of bibs, a jersey and two pairs of socks!
Well, don't forget that isn't just bikestuff - it includes socks and underwear I'm wearing while in Civilization, where more stringent standards hold. Oh, and gymstuff. Stinky in the woods is OK, stinky at the gym is frowned upon (I've been told). [smile]
 

TLB

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To get us off the subject of bickering over e-bikes, as well as the sadness/anger/bewilderment over the KT situation, let us once again consider:

SpaceCritter's Stinky Laundry
[party]

In our last episode, I noted that, due to the bikasaurus stink, my two-loads-per-week are segregated into Stinky (bike stuff, gym stuff, socks, underwear, and certain things that managed to get mixed in and thus Designated Stinky) and NotStinky (everything else), and that the Stinky load gets Mirazyme in the rinse cycle (via the fabric softener dispenser). While it hasn't exorcised bikasaurus completely, it has knocked it back to a dull roar.

Today's was a Big Stinky Load:

View attachment 320921

I needed TWO scoops of Mirazyme for this one. [grin]

The underwear count says two weeks, but that can't be right as it doesn't jibe with the socks, even allowing an occasional reuse of a pair, so I'm guessing I must've missed a few last time I did a Stinky load. The two bike shorts are new - Christmas presents - as is the armored Zoic liner (cuz SpaceCritter is a clumsy Aspie). Gym beanie is all the way to the left. I didn't wash gloves or armor cuz I still need to keep the bears away (four legged and two), and the RUSH12 pack is still pretty much a lost cause.

You're welcome for sharing. [smile]

Oh, and speaking of Christmas presents: I also put into service my new forestry helmet and chainsaw chaps. That got me thinking: have you ever wondered why they speak of "assless" chaps? They're assless by definition - that's what makes them chaps.

🤔

[laugh]
Try soaking in Borax solution before washing.
 

SpaceCritter

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Try soaking in Borax solution before washing.
BTDT. And the vinegar, and the baking soda, ....

I covered all that earlier in this thread.

The Mirazyme's been the best to date. Oh, and they don't call it that any longer - it's now:
 

TrackDayRdr

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How about a winter project side trail discussion? I do 99% of my own wrenching and will be doing the following while the salt is still on the roads:
  • 50 hour service on my B1 Reverb
  • Lower fork service
  • Fork seals
  • Deep clean and waxing chain
  • Replacing bearings in my I9 hub and driver
  • Removing shock and sending to Fox for service
  • Inspecting and replacing (if necessary) pivot bearings
  • Installing 4 piston XT rear brake
  • Changing front brake pads
  • Bleeding brakes and dropper line
  • Replacing shift cables
  • New seat
What are you guys up to?
 

SpaceCritter

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How about a winter project side trail discussion? I do 99% of my own wrenching and will be doing the following while the salt is still on the roads:
  • 50 hour service on my B1 Reverb
  • Lower fork service
  • Fork seals
  • Deep clean and waxing chain
  • Replacing bearings in my I9 hub and driver
  • Removing shock and sending to Fox for service
  • Inspecting and replacing (if necessary) pivot bearings
  • Installing 4 piston XT rear brake
  • Changing front brake pads
  • Bleeding brakes and dropper line
  • Replacing shift cables
  • New seat
What are you guys up to?
I'll only do about 50% of my own wrenching, cuz my mechanical skills are meh.

The only bike that still has hydraulics is the Dawg, and the Dawg and I are still working out relationship issues as a result of the crash. Riding solo in a lot of gnarly places, hydraulics are too fiddly, which is why when they failed on the Stinky I had them replaced with cables.
 

SpaceCritter

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Today is pouring rain, which is expected to continue into tomorrow (and stay above freezing). Consequently tomorrow will be a gym day (the last one before the Resolutioners invade for the month or so they stick with it), and yesterday morning's ride at Naugy becomes my last of 2019:

20191229_071326.jpg

20191229_071338.jpg

20191229_074519.jpg

20191229_075151.jpg
 

Supermoto

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I got a chance to ride Dupont State forest in NC. Did the "Taste of Dupont" route which was around 18 miles. The route was suppose to hit the good trails in Dupont, but it was a lot of wide double track and only a few trails that are actually singletrack and all of it was over sanitized in the name of flow. On all but 2 trails, I felt over biked on a 130/120mm bike. Overall it would be a fun local ride, but wasn't worth the drive since there are similar local trails. There are a lot of trails there so I may have missed some more backcountry type riding....I'll have to give Pisgah a try next trip.



Dupont.jpg

Dupont trail.png
 
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