The comprehensive, omnibus Mountain Bike Thread

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Imagine you're a mountain biker and own a giant chunk of property that you've opened to horse riders. You chose to live in northern VT because of the peace and quiet, views, quaintness. Within a very short time the traffic free roads are busy with vehicles, horses just crossing wherever and whenever they want, drunken horse owners stumbling out of the Tiki Bar and pissing behind the church and worst of all when you go for a ride on your private property the horse riders are letting their animals shit all over the place and when you say something about it you get cocky attitude and rude comments. If I were in that situation it would be difficult for me to continue to make my land available to the horse people.
 

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Imagine you're a mountain biker and own a giant chunk of property that you've opened to horse riders. You chose to live in northern VT because of the peace and quiet, views, quaintness. Within a very short time the traffic free roads are busy with vehicles, horses just crossing wherever and whenever they want, drunken horse owners stumbling out of the Tiki Bar and pissing behind the church and worst of all when you go for a ride on your private property the horse riders are letting their animals shit all over the place and when you say something about it you get cocky attitude and rude comments. If I were in that situation it would be difficult for me to continue to make my land available to the horse people.
Without a doubt. Don't forget I'm one of the ones who will only ride there at sunrise (and not only during the festival).
 

Ipe

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Imagine you're a mountain biker and own a giant chunk of property that you've opened to horse riders. You chose to live in northern VT because of the peace and quiet, views, quaintness. Within a very short time the traffic free roads are busy with vehicles, horses just crossing wherever and whenever they want, drunken horse owners stumbling out of the Tiki Bar and pissing behind the church and worst of all when you go for a ride on your private property the horse riders are letting their animals shit all over the place and when you say something about it you get cocky attitude and rude comments. If I were in that situation it would be difficult for me to continue to make my land available to the horse people.
I'm guessing this is directed here because of my horsey avatar. 🐎 :cool:

Ok, you're a property owner unhappy with the situation. That said, you like that you and your neighbors are employed, your kids can go to school, the roads you drive on are fairly well maintained and that for the most part you can live a good life. You think to yourself, wow, all these horse/bike people are bringing a LOT of tax dollars to my community and thats a good thing. I just don't like the pissing, pooping, and poor attitudes (gosh darned horse/bike people! [frown] 😉)

Here's what I might propose at my next town meeting. I'd ask whats being done with that tax money. I'd suggest a municipal bond to pay for 50 public toilets and showers. I'd suggest that more police be hired to patrol the pissing/pooping areas behind the tiki bar and church. I'd suggest that the DPW clean those 50 public toilets and showers morning and evening seven days a week and I'd suggest that some of the tax revenue go towards that. If necessary I'd recommend that KTA increase its ticket/pass pricing so that it could help support the extra piss/poop patrol and the DPW custodians.

I'd be willing to bet that some of my neighbors would get pissy about the idea of a municipal bond and the cost of additional cops and DPW. I'd point out that the cost is outweighed by the benefits of the continued income to the area and that the additional positions could quite possibly be filled by local people who would now be employed and would be contributing to the local tax base and economy themselves. All in all a win-win!


All horseing about aside, despite my avatar I'm not a horse person. Thats my son on the horse many, many years ago. Now he's a heck of a rider, both horse and bike! Hay-burners are WAY too expensive and I thank the lord every day that I've never bought one! Having a two rider stable of mountain bikes is expensive enough!
 

Ipe

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Also, if there were that many horses and riders in the area you'd do best to get the heck out of town. Most of the horses I've met can be cool one moment and then FREAK OUT over the smallest thing, like ice rattling in a cup or an umbrella opening (not joking about this!). If there were as many drunk people on horses as mountain bikers you'd need to call out the national guard. That would be dangerous to life and limb! Think cavalry charge on unguided meat missiles!
 

Broccoli Iglesias

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According to Facebook, the area inside the red boundary is closed now.

View attachment 318621View attachment 318621
Some property owners are d*cks. The area to the left is all mountain, there arent any buildings or plantations, there is nothing you can do there. Just let people ride.

The top yellowish area does have some flat land, I could understand that part.
 
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TrackDayRdr

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Some property owners are d*cks. The area to the left is all mountain, there arent any buildings or plantations, there is nothing you can do there. Just let people ride.
Geeze, Captain Abrasive just chimed in.

Dicks? They have let people have the run of the land they bought, protect and pay taxes on for 25 years and have finally had enough of being treated like a sideline. Who are you to say what private people do on their own private property? Maybe they originally bought it so they and their family can escape from congestion and just want to enjoy the peace and quiet? Whatever. It's theirs. If I was a horse owner and couldn't ride my horses safely on my own property because Chris King hubs freak my horses out I know on which side my decision would be on.

Ipe - I'm guessing residents of the Darling Hill moved there to escape all of the red tape you are proposing.

PS, not a VT landowner here.
 

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The concerns of the (very generous) landowners are legit.

And one of the things drilled into our heads when we put the festival on is that it brings bucks to the community, sure, but it's a HUGE PITA for the neighbors, so we need to do everything we can to make it as less so as possible.

The folks at KT are working on this, and I'm hoping some resolution will be found. It's been a good relationship for twenty-five years.

(Re: horses: my aunt's an equestrian, so I hear about concerns from that community through her primarily. We've worked hard over the years to cultivate a good mutual relationship there, too - I haven't heard very many complaints lately even "through channels" so the message must be getting out.)
 

Broccoli Iglesias

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Geeze, Captain Abrasive just chimed in.

Dicks? They have let people have the run of the land they bought, protect and pay taxes on for 25 years and have finally had enough of being treated like a sideline. Who are you to say what private people do on their own private property? Maybe they originally bought it so they and their family can escape from congestion and just want to enjoy the peace and quiet? Whatever. It's theirs. If I was a horse owner and couldn't ride my horses safely on my own property because Chris King hubs freak my horses out I know on which side my decision would be on.

Ipe - I'm guessing residents of the Darling Hill moved there to escape all of the red tape you are proposing.

PS, not a VT landowner here.
Maybe I was too direct for NES, I forgot people are sensitive.

If you have been to those trails, you know nothing can be built there. It is woods, rocks, mud, all downhill. Remove the trails and you have no idea people are event using that.

The MTB associations clean the area and bring tourists, which leave money there.

To me, blocking a piece of a mountain that has no other use, is a little bit of a d*ck move, especially after not having issues for 25 years.

But, you are right, private property is private and people should be able to do whatever they want with their property. I am not saying people should be forced to allow others to use their property.

I'm not sure what red tape I am proposing. Can you quote the sort of my post where I am proposing any red tape?
 
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These stupid pissing matches are why I don't frequent NES as much as I used to. Easier to be friends with people outside this absurd juvenile keyboard warrior dick swinging.


This is the only statement of any pertinent kind; why don't we leave it at this:

"The folks at KT are working on this, and I'm hoping some resolution will be found. It's been a good relationship for twenty-five years. "
 

TrackDayRdr

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Maybe I was too direct for NES, I forgot people are sensitive.

To me, blocking a piece of a mountain that has no other use, is a little bit of a d*ck move, especially after not having issues for 25 years.
Or maybe you are calling people dicks without having enough of an understanding of what is and has been going on. Did you read any of the discussions or are you just blurting out your baseless frustration? I'm not sensitive, but it's attitudes like yours that have obviously accumulated at KT and caused the problems in the first place. Read up a bit more and try to understand the perspective of the people that live at KT when you get to go home. It seems as though this is not a new situation and the landowners are just trying to get their small VT town back.

That land that you deem useless is obviously being used by the landowners. If someone wants to walk in peace on their own land without a crowd of people flying past they should be able to.


I'm not sure what red tape I am proposing. Can you quote the sort of my post where I am proposing any red tape?
Scroll up and re-read my post. See the "Ipe - "? That is directing my comment to NES'r Ipe who suggested more cops, facilities, DPW, etc to support the influx of traffic.
 

Ipe

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Ipe - I'm guessing residents of the Darling Hill moved there to escape all of the red tape you are proposing.

PS, not a VT landowner here.
That's entirely possible, and typically I'd be against any and all expansion of government. If an issue can be fawked-up the .gov can fawk it up better than almost anyone! That said, doing nothing is not a solution. Maybe I'm wrong and a massive hole in the middle of Darling Hill will be no big deal and KTA can continue along happy as can be. Also don't see how that solves the piss/poop issues at the tiki bar, but I don't drink alcohol, don't camp (did all that during my army days!) park my truck at the place I stay, and only come to Burke with my teenager son so never visit the tiki bar area and ultimately really don't care what happens there.... BUT! I do care about this whole thing which is why I'm active on this thread now.

Maybe the things I proposed can be done by KTA without getting the .gov involved. I donno...

My concern is that now that the area is used to the certain level of economic stability brought on by KTA, its removal could bring negative unintended consequences. For all involved I really do hope I'm wrong.

I'm not sure what red tape I am proposing. Can you quote the sort of my post where I am proposing any red tape?
Broccoli, I think TrackDayRdr is talking about what I suggested
 

SpaceCritter

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I think Track Day Rider mentioned horses because the rumor is that was the cause of the problem. Supposedly the female property owner was riding a horse on her own property and was yelled at by a mountain biker.
If that turns out to be the case...
36_1_28.gif
For f***'s sake, people, it's not a difficult concept to grasp: big, skittish critter has the right-of-way, even if it isn't her property.
 

Ipe

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I think Track Day Rider mentioned horses because the rumor is that was the cause of the problem. Supposedly the female property owner was riding a horse on her own property and was yelled at by a mountain biker.
Ahhhhh.... That makes sense. :cool:

If that turns out to be the case...
View attachment 318836
For f***'s sake, people, it's not a difficult concept to grasp: big, skittish critter has the right-of-way, even if it isn't her property.
Yep, Thats one of the reasons I ride Onyx hubs. When I described horses above as unguided meat missiles I wasn't kidding. They are a prey animal and the "flight" instinct is deeply, DEEPLY etched into their DNA. The most chill, cool, "go with the flow" horse in the world will explode in sheer, stark raving terror at their own shadow much less an I9 hub doing a rattlesnake impersonation. If you can count on anything, its the horse being terrified at anything, without notice. Absolutely ANYTHING

Rule number one of bike/horse interaction club: When you see a horse get off your bike and wait for the rider to pass safely by
Rule number two of bike/horse interaction club: see rule number one

Oh, not only will the rider be pissed about the horse accidentally attempting to kill them, they'll also be pissed about the possible injury to their incredibly expensive animal. By expensive I'm talking typically as much as your car or truck. If the horse looks particularly strong, muscular, and put together, possibly more than your house. And NO, I am not exaggerating.
 

SpaceCritter

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Rule number one of bike/horse interaction club: When you see a horse get off your bike and wait for the rider to pass safely by
Rule number two of bike/horse interaction club: see rule number one
I dismount and walk, and make sure rider knows I'm there, and follow rider's directions. Not typically a problem cuz bear bells (actually sleighbells) on the pack - and they're there for that reason, not bears.

My aunt was thrown by hers (nothing to do with bikes). Cracked ribs only, fortunately - still took a long time to heal, but could have been much worse - so I take interactions with equestrians very seriously.
 
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Ipe

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FWIW my son says my position on the hubs is wrong. When he's on a horse he'd rather hear the rider coming, but then again the kid prefers loud hubs. Not sure he's envisioning the same scenario I am though.

I dismount and walk, and make sure rider knows I'm there, and follow rider's directions.
That's probably equal to or better than my advise. Well said.
 

TLB

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I think Track Day Rider mentioned horses because the rumor is that was the cause of the problem. Supposedly the female property owner was riding a horse on her own property and was yelled at by a mountain biker.
I would be pretty pissed if some mountain biker that I let use my land yelled at me while I was using my own land.
 

SpaceCritter

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I would be pretty pissed if some mountain biker that I let use my land yelled at me while I was using my own land.
...but I don't think that was it. I mean, we're landowners in New Hampshire, and have been only since 2007, yet we've already had to deal with a**h*** users (not bikes - hunters in our case). One (we can't prove it but suspect who it was) "posted" our land. Without our knowledge or approval. To keep out other hunters. We saw and took down the signs.

It's gotta be more than a simple one-off - even a really annoying one - with mountain bikers. I haven't had an opportunity to have a candid with Abby, but we all know there have been plenty of concerns raised about the general environment at KT. Once again, I'll make mention of the fact that I'll only ride the network at sunrise, when other traffic is minimal. (Hell, it used to be just me and the bears!)
 
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Supermoto

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What is that? Looks like a Rockhopper frame. Whisky fork? Did you just get lucky with the chain length?
2016 Specialized crave SL, it has a EBB
 

mtnbiker26

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Interesting, I don't remember that model. People look at you like you're nuts when you show up on a rigid singlespeed now. Sadly, it's become all about the gear instead of learning real skills.
 

Supermoto

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Interesting, I don't remember that model. People look at you like you're nuts when you show up on a rigid singlespeed now. Sadly, it's become all about the gear instead of learning real skills.
Yeah, most peoples reactions are "Why"?
Shockingly the Crave SL wasn't very popular. But this is my second one. It is a really good bike for the price. Newer SS seem to have gone to low and slack and built around 120mm+ travel. This really seems like the only non custom, reasonable priced bike with steeper geo that is built for a rigid fork and isn't a tank like the Kona.
 

mtnbiker26

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Lol, half of the nitwits riding buff XC trails on $6k bikes with 160mm of travel can't even lift the front wheel off the ground. They have no skills, just disposable income. I have way more respect for the guy cleaning the crazy technical sections on the rigid steel SS than I do for the guy who needs a drooper post to ride off a curb.

E-bikes aren't for me but I understand why some folks like them. There are still a lot of issues though, namely access for E-mountain bikes and how to service them.
 

mtnbiker26

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Yeah, most peoples reactions are "Why"?
Shockingly the Crave SL wasn't very popular. But this is my second one. It is a really good bike for the price. Newer SS seem to have gone to low and slack and built around 120mm+ travel. This really seems like the only non custom, reasonable priced bike with steeper geo that is built for a rigid fork and isn't a tank like the Kona.
Everything is long, low and slack now. I don't really like that feel. It's too stable and kinda boring to ride. Great for the bike park and enduro but it's being pushed on the "XC/trail" bikes now. I hope it's a short lived trend.
 

SpaceCritter

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E-bikes aren't for me but I understand why some folks like them. There are still a lot of issues though, namely access for E-mountain bikes and how to service them.
For treated surface trails AND NOT backcountry, they're probably fine (though I'm not in a rush to get one). For natural surface trails OR backcountry, I'm not a fan for several reasons (and note the logical operators I'm using).
 

Supermoto

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I'm for equal access for E-Bikes. If it gets more people out riding that otherwise wouldn't or couldn't then I think it is a good thing. These people might then decide to get a non E-bike.

I don't see them creating any additional problems that Mtn biker don't already create themselves.
Tearing up trails? plenty of that going on with mtn bikers skidding thru corners since its the new youtube cool thing to do
Going too fast? Plenty of that with Stravatards, are we for speed limits now?

Many of the arguments used for banning E-Bikes were the same used to ban Mtn bikes not so long ago.
 

SpaceCritter

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I'm for equal access for E-Bikes. If it gets more people out riding that otherwise wouldn't or couldn't then I think it is a good thing. These people might then decide to get a non E-bike.

I don't see them creating any additional problems that Mtn biker don't already create themselves.
Tearing up trails? plenty of that going on with mtn bikers skidding thru corners since its the new youtube cool thing to do
Going too fast? Plenty of that with Stravatards, are we for speed limits now?

Many of the arguments used for banning E-Bikes were the same used to ban Mtn bikes not so long ago.
Here's the thing:
1. They DO tear up the trails more than we do. Especially if they've been tweaked (and there are a zillion Youtube videos now on how).
2. They hold speed in places where when pedaling you'd be likely to decelerate naturally. In fact, that's part of how we design in trail management for diverse populations - we oftentimes put in features specifically for speed control of mountain bikers. Oh, and as for speed limits: there are places that have them. Example:
Canal Heritage Trail: Welcome to the Farmington Canal Heritage Trail (Posted 15, at least Cheshire to Hamden)
3. "Getting more people out" is a laudable goal, but not if it gets people to venture out and into places they're really not prepared for (see my comment about backcountry, above).
And the biggie:
4. We're STILL fighting the access battle, and STILL considered "two-wheeled locusts" by several and many constituency groups. These people never welcomed us - despite the mountain of evidence we're roughly as impactful as the hikers, and far less so than the equestrians and motorized guys - and would like nothing more than to boot us, despite the work we've done to preserve, protect, and maintain the resource. They're absolutely salivating at the idea of being able to conflate mountain bikes with motorcycles.
 
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