The Aftermath...

[SFC13557]

Remember the guy in the North Shore who watched a junkie trying to break into his car in his driveway, went out to confront him, was attacked with a screwdriver, punched out the junkie and got arrested for assault and battery. Martha's famous statement was, "We don't encourage citizens to take the law into their own hands"

 

[StevieP]

"They forced me to shoot to stop the threat!"

Then shut up & call a good lawyer.

 

[JayCaliber]

Remember the guy in the North Shore who watched a junkie trying to break into his car in his driveway, went out to confront him, was attacked with a screwdriver, punched out the junkie and got arrested for assault and battery. Martha's famous statement was, "We don't encourage citizens to take the law into their own hands"

I blame her for us being in this mess in the first place!

 

[JayCaliber]

OP's going to jail

At this point if it popped off I'd literally have the choices of die or go to jail.

 

[JayCaliber]

Not a lawyer and not giving advice, but MA does have Castle Doctrine, which applies "inside the 4 walls of your dwelling". The squishy part of the law is "the belief that great bodily injury or death was about to be inflicted". Not going to say much on that other than to say that knives are common and certainly dangerous, as are any number of other common household tools that an intruder could pick up and use...

"In the prosecution of a person who is an occupant of a dwelling charged with killing or injuring one who was unlawfully in said dwelling, it shall be a defense that the occupant was in his dwelling at the time of the offense and that he acted in the reasonable belief that the person unlawfully in said dwelling was about to inflict great bodily injury or death upon said occupant or upon another person lawfully in said dwelling, and that said occupant used reasonable means to defend himself or such other person lawfully in said dwelling. There shall be no duty on said occupant to retreat from such person unlawfully in said dwelling."

Having said that, seems if you need to use your firearms in self-defense, you will
1. be arrested and charged
2. have your firearms confiscated
3. have to prove to the DA/Grand Jury that it was a justifiable homicide

Seems like self-defense insurance is a good idea if you plan on ever needing to use your firearms in self-defense or else have deep pockets to pay for your defense.

The saying "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" still applies though.

The first and second part gets me pissed the most. What if you defended yourself against a gang member and now have a price in your head? No way to defend yourself going forward. So having LTC means you can buy guns will be treated as a convict if you use them regardless to save yourself. Crazy. May seem far fetched, but not all of us live in the burbs.

 

[NewGuyRay]

Can anyone offer a suggestion on which USCCA plan people are typically using? It looks like the best choices are Platinum and Elite. I don't want to be cheap about it but don't want to spend more than I need to spend. Can a lawful use of self-defense normally result in a civil award of more than $1M? I can't imagine the life of someone I needed to use deadly force against would be worth that much.

 

[FPrice]

"They forced me to shoot to stop the threat!"

"I would like to call my lawyer please."

Then shut up & call a good lawyer.

FIFY.

In all seriousness, this is a very good question. And the only reason to ask it online should be to get the name of someone who can give you the best possible advice. The only person I can give a first-hand recommendation for is Len2A. He knows his stuff.

My biggest concern in Massachusetts is a paraphrase of something I once heard that was attributed to Clint Smith (Thunder Ranch). He is alleged to have said:

"You can do everything right in a gunfight but still lose."

"You can do everything right in a self-defense shooting in Massachusetts and still get screwed over by the law."

 

[Dadstoys]

It's already been said in this thread numerous times but one more for effect.
Shut the hell up!
Your lawyer talks , not you.
No matter how nice and sympathetic the officers may seem , in this situation they are not your friends.
Shut the hell up.
Just one sentence that could be twisted in court later might be the difference in how the whole rest of your life plays out .

 

[Igotid]

Anytime you are involved in something where the cops show up and ask questions, talk to nobody

SHUT UP AND LAWYER UP is the first rule. " I'm sorry Officer, I will not talk to you without my Lawyer present" Even if you have not been read your rights, if you are talking to cops they are looking for something that you will eventually say that will give them cause to arrest you.

Am I being detained? Am I free to go? I would like to call my lawyer. That's it. Nothing more.

Ever see this? It is LONG but worth it.

If you watch any of the “news” murder type shows (20/20, dateline etc) you know the ones, every word ever spoken is scrutinized and twisted and used against any suspect. Watch the “don’t talk to the police” video, it’s gold. I’ve made both my teen son and daughter watch it. Granted these aren’t murder situations you want information on, but not talking to the cops has to be rule 1. A close second rule would also be not talking to the cops.

 

[NHCraigT]

 

[Varmint]

The first and second part gets me pissed the most. What if you defended yourself against a gang member and now have a price in your head? No way to defend yourself going forward. So having LTC means you can buy guns will be treated as a convict if you use them regardless to save yourself. Crazy. May seem far fetched, but not all of us live in the burbs.

No worries, the cops are 20 minutes away.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

If you watch any of the “news” murder type shows (20/20, dateline etc) you know the ones, every word ever spoken is scrutinized and twisted and used against any suspect.

Here's an example - use the canned line off the USCCA card and you can expect to have both the card and the recording of what you said entered into evidence. If it gets to trial, you will be asked to explain your use of a carefully vetted line that you carried on a card in a wallet for long before you used it. "Isn't it true that you were not describing the situation, but using a pre-planned line you thought would cast you in a favorable light when you finally managed to find someone to shoot?"

Espouse how you would handle a situation on NES? Use terms like "Kill em all, let God sort em out", "Nobody who did that to my dog would live", etc. and you can expect one that is replete with unflattering innuendo to be used against you. It does not take an Inspector Clouseau caliber investigator to know that NES is "the place" to dig for this sort of stuff locally and have Derek served a subpoena, potentially with a gag order.

And Dog help you if you ever disrespected diversity online and are involved in an incident that crosses cultural, ethnic or religious lines.

No matter how nice and sympathetic the officers may seem , in this situation they are not your friends.

The nice guy approach is covered in the interrogation handbook for the Reid/Inbau method, now more commonly just called the Reid method. If you are escorted to a room with no indication of the custodial situation; left to sit a while (being video/audio monitored while you are left to get worn down); placed in a chair that does not roll while the interrogator is in a rolling office chair; in a room labeled "interview" rather than "interrogation" you should feel like a steer being led down a narrow passage between two metal fences.

The words after "I wish to consult with legal counsel before being interviewed" should be "am I free to go?".

 

[Mesatchornug]

Also note that simply shutting up is officially not the same as declaring yourself silent. Opinion recap: If you want to claim the Fifth . . . - SCOTUSblog

Since you're already speaking to the police, you need to actively state that you are invoking your right to not self-incriminate, the clam up.

 

[fencer]

OP - what it really comes down to, in this state, is that you have to determine if the use of your firearm in a situation, is worth potentially spending the rest of your life in jail.
My wife and I have discussed this at length and most people have a plan. The only thing that is worth spending the rest of my life in prison is the lives of my wife and kids.
We have agreed that in the event of a late night home invasion, my wife will call 911 and try to get both kids into the farthest bedroom. I will position myself at the top of the stairs. I will gladly watch someone walk out with anything they want, TV, laptop, iPad, anything they deem worth stealing. It's all just stuff and can be replaced.
However,they are NOT coming up those stairs.
You also have to consider a home invasion during waking hours. You are hanging out watching the game, and 2 or 3 armed men break down your door.

As mentioned many times on this forum, home defense needs to be applied in layers. In most cases/scenarios, the use of a firearm can be a last resort that is avoided. In my opinion, a good dog will thwart most attacks. You don't need a mastiff or rotweiler either. A golden retriever, lab, or medium sized mutt, will keep most people away. Secure entry doors are a must. If it's very hard to get in, and the dog is barking most criminals will select a softer target. Cameras and alarms are great, but can't stop a determined assailant. A panic button with a loud siren is most effective.
So, the dog is barking, the alarm is blaring and they can't get through the door. You either have something very valuable inside, the assailant/s are extremely determined or you have managed to attract attention from a serious criminal group.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Also note that simply shutting up is officially not the same as declaring yourself silent. Opinion recap: If you want to claim the Fifth . . . - SCOTUSblog

Since you're already speaking to the police, you need to actively state that you are invoking your right to not self-incriminate, the clam up.

It is worse than that. If you do invoke the 5th later on in the process, the prosecution can use when you invoked the 5th - as in "He agreed to speak to us and invoked the 5th when we asked him about his gun".

 

[67ray]

It is worse than that. If you do invoke the 5th later on in the process, the prosecution can use when you invoked the 5th - as in "He agreed to speak to us and invoked the 5th when we asked him about his gun".

Thanks Mssr. Boudrie - that sounds better than my dindu nuffin strategy

 

[voidoid]

Reading the MA jury instructions for issues of self defense would be a very good idea.

 

[SgtHal75]

Depends on what state you are in.
In MA I've been taught that you have the duty to retreat.
I was taught: (Pretty much) The best case scenario is to be locked in a room with no way out and the perp is smashing down the door trying to kill you. Then, you can shoot them.
.02 P

No duty to retreat in your own home in MA. We have a castle doctrine. Don’t shoot em in the back though in MA. In public, yes u have a duty to retreat.

 

[johnnymac101]

I have platinum. Called them once as a member- not shooting related- courteous and profession and answered all my questions

Can anyone offer a suggestion on which USCCA plan people are typically using? It looks like the best choices are Platinum and Elite. I don't want to be cheap about it but don't want to spend more than I need to spend. Can a lawful use of self-defense normally result in a civil award of more than $1M? I can't imagine the life of someone I needed to use deadly force against would be worth that much.

 

[oldguy47]

I have platinum. Called them once as a member- not shooting related- courteous and profession and answered all my questions

Platinum here, as well.

 

[fencer]

It is worse than that. If you do invoke the 5th later on in the process, the prosecution can use when you invoked the 5th - as in "He agreed to speak to us and invoked the 5th when we asked him about his gun".

Question for you Rob, and anyone else that may offer some advice or insight. Has it ever been suggested in a court room, that by buying insurance like USCCA, the shooter was looking for an excuse to shoot someone?

 

[44marty]

In MA you are expected to cower in your home while watching the criminal(s) kill your dog, break into your shed, load all your power tools etc into your truck, and let them drive away with the works while you are waiting for a police response
If you do so much as "brandish" a weapon, you may find yourself treated as the criminal

 

[44marty]

They want me to hide in my own home that I worked hard to get while a low life who feels so entitled comes to take everything? HA that's funny.

I'm starting to think my guns are real useless now. Instruments of protection yet I'll be seen as a criminal anyhow and lose everything in the process.

In MA you really need to be wealthy and well connected to expect not to be treated as a criminal for anything as much as saying that you have a firearm, let alone drawing a pistol or, god forbid, shooting someone who is attacking you.
Depending on how far out in the woods you are, you could even be in trouble for shooting a rabid animal

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Question for you Rob, and anyone else that may offer some advice or insight. Has it ever been suggested in a court room, that by buying insurance like USCCA, the shooter was looking for an excuse to shoot someone?

Not aware of it. A good attorney should, emphasis should, be able to convince the court that having legal insurance is not evidence of guilt and exclude it. I would not count on that in MA.

As to what to say - don't say "right not to self-incriminate", but rather "right to counsel" and "right to remain silent". Probably not good to say "This is classic, the paint job, your rolling chair and my fixed one .... will you be using the Reid method of theme development and moral minimization as we continue, and can I expect you to interrupt any time I attempt to verbalize a lack of guilt?".

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Thanks Mssr. Boudrie - that sounds better than my dindu nuffin strategy

That is short for the deny everything; admit nothing; demand proof; raise counter allegations and attack the credibility of the witness strategy.

Also note that simply shutting up is officially not the same as declaring yourself silent.

Oxymoron alert. You must break silence to exercise your right to remain silent

every word ever spoken is scrutinized and twisted and used against any suspect

If you are too nervous you are obviously guilty. Same if you are too calm.

Too consistent in your story as your reiterate it N times during interrogation? Obviously a carefully rehearsed cover story. Minor differences as you retell it? Obviously lying.

 

[Broc]

It cost that much for saving your own life even if you weren't wrong? Sheesh

Depends. Are you white, have a nice house, a good job, a decent 401K and a savings account?

If YES ... the courts will go after you and try to destroy you. Meanwhile, Diego the drug dealer that has been arrested 6 times, 3 with illegal guns, 2 for violence and once for drugs will walk IN and OUT of the courtroom with a bail of $500. His name wont even end up on the news. But yours will, and you can kiss your job good bye and hope your wife can pay the mortgage on her own.

I hate sounding so negative, but this is MA.

The best thing you can do is SHUT THE F UP.
let me repeat that SHUT THE F UP.
One more time SHUT THE F UP.

All you say: "My name is XYZ" ... then you SHUT THE F UP.

Dont tell cops how you were defending your baby. How you were trapped. How you didnt have time to run away. Dont tell them what you ate last night or how you know all the Tom Brady stats. YOU SHUT THE F UP.

The cops ARE NOT your friends. The cops ARE NOT here to help you. Cops ARE NOT here to negotiate if you talk. So what do you do? ... you SHUT THE F UP.

A really good real life example of why shutting up is important. I think it is season 2 of Last Chance U. One of the football players is being interrogated for stabbing someone. The cops let one guy go because, although he spoke, he was lucky and didnt incriminate himself. The other moron said something like "maybe" and that was enough to get him. Go watch it. If both those kids SHUT THE F UP, they would have been free.

 

[JayCaliber]

In MA you really need to be wealthy and well connected to expect not to be treated as a criminal for anything as much as saying that you have a firearm, let alone drawing a pistol or, god forbid, shooting someone who is attacking you.
Depending on how far out in the woods you are, you could even be in trouble for shooting a rabid animal

Haha now people can't hunt? I'm wondering if it's like this in other states in terms of self defense (probably not). It seems to be, "guilty until proven innocent" instead of vice versa here.

 

[Broc]

"They forced me to shoot to stop the threat!"

Then shut up & call a good lawyer.

That's horrible advice. You dont say anything. Your name and then stop talking.

 

[Broc]

OP - what it really comes down to, in this state, is that you have to determine if the use of your firearm in a situation, is worth potentially spending the rest of your life in jail.
My wife and I have discussed this at length and most people have a plan. The only thing that is worth spending the rest of my life in prison is the lives of my wife and kids.
We have agreed that in the event of a late night home invasion, my wife will call 911 and try to get both kids into the farthest bedroom. I will position myself at the top of the stairs. I will gladly watch someone walk out with anything they want, TV, laptop, iPad, anything they deem worth stealing. It's all just stuff and can be replaced.
However,they are NOT coming up those stairs.
You also have to consider a home invasion during waking hours. You are hanging out watching the game, and 2 or 3 armed men break down your door.

As mentioned many times on this forum, home defense needs to be applied in layers. In most cases/scenarios, the use of a firearm can be a last resort that is avoided. In my opinion, a good dog will thwart most attacks. You don't need a mastiff or rotweiler either. A golden retriever, lab, or medium sized mutt, will keep most people away. Secure entry doors are a must. If it's very hard to get in, and the dog is barking most criminals will select a softer target. Cameras and alarms are great, but can't stop a determined assailant. A panic button with a loud siren is most effective.
So, the dog is barking, the alarm is blaring and they can't get through the door. You either have something very valuable inside, the assailant/s are extremely determined or you have managed to attract attention from a serious criminal group.

A few additional things to stop people from breaking into your place:

- dont advertise you have guns. All those NRA and GLOCK stickers all over your car do nothing but say "hey people, I own guns".

- the stupid yard sign "I dont call the cops" with a gun ... throw that sh*t away.

- talking guns. This is the hardest for most people, because people cant SHUT THE F UP. Do not, ever, let your wife friends know you have guns. People talk. My ex wife once told one of her friends. A few weeks later her friend is over with her POS pothead hippie boyfriend that was 26 and dint have a drivers license, and she says "Brococli, tell Bobby about your guns" ... I will let you guess my reaction.

My old roommate walks in one day and says to me "dude, my girlfriends grandfather has an amazing gun collection in his basement"

I think you get the idea.

This also goes for your friends. If you hang with shitty people, dont talk about guns. If you hang out with shitty people you might want to consider getting new friends.

If you live in Lawrence, Lowell, Brockton, Worcester ... make sure no one knows you are the dude with a lot of gun.

 

[Dadstoys]

A few additional things to stop people from breaking into your place:

- dont advertise you have guns. All those NRA and GLOCK stickers all over your car do nothing but say "hey people, I own guns".

- the stupid yard sign "I dont call the cops" with a gun ... throw that sh*t away.

- talking guns. This is the hardest for most people, because people cant SHUT THE F UP. Do not, ever, let your wife friends know you have guns. People talk. My ex wife once told one of her friends. A few weeks later her friend is over with her POS pothead hippie boyfriend that was 26 and dint have a drivers license, and she says "Brococli, tell Bobby about your guns" ... I will let you guess my reaction.

My old roommate walks in one day and says to me "dude, my girlfriends grandfather has an amazing gun collection in his basement"

I think you get the idea.

This also goes for your friends. If you hang with shitty people, dont talk about guns. If you hang out with shitty people you might want to consider getting new friends.

If you live in Lawrence, Lowell, Brockton, Worcester ... make sure no one knows you are the dude with a lot of gun.

I have a customer who has a pretty extensive collection.
I mean very extensive.
I was working outside the house and the furnace guy comes out who I don't know from a hole in the wall and start going on about how this guy could start his own army with all the guns he has in there ect.
I told the guy "Ya and I'm sure he appreciates you running your mouth about it to every one you run into. "