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The 2nd amendment and no duty to retreat laws

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http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2007/10/no-duty-to-retreat.html

(there is some video on the web article)

No Duty To Retreat (Updated and corrected)


A year ago, the State of Michigan enacted a law stipulating that individuals can properly use deadly force to defend themselves or others when confronted by an assailant threatening imminent death, bodily harm, or sexual assault. The measure specifies that this right is to be recognized and protected anywhere its exercise proves to be necessary -- not merely in the sanctuary of an individual's home, but "anywhere [the citizen] has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat...."


Those seeking a suitable brief summation of what it means to be a free man or woman can find a pretty decent one in the phrase, "no duty to retreat."


To the best of my knowledge, Michigan and Louisiana are the only states of this once-free land whose laws governing self-defense explicitly disavow the spurious notion that free people under criminal attack have a duty to retreat before availing themselves of the innate right to lethal self-defense. And it is quite likely that even those state laws protect not a right, but a limited, situational privilege. [Actually, as a reader pointed out in the comments thread, 15 states have enacted "no duty to retreat" laws since 2005. I appreciate the correction, and regret my error. -- WNG]

Would the self-defense laws in Michigan and Louisiana [and elsewhere] provide legal protection to a citizen who shoots a law enforcement officer threatening the illegal use of lethal force?


If not, they're of very limited use. Without putting too fine a point on the observation, allow me to note that cases of lethal police abuse are becoming increasingly common, and defense against abusive agents of the State was the chief purpose of the Second Amendment -- not protecting the means of hunting, as that venerable nimrod Bill Clinton once said; not just deterring armed crime by non-government actors, as the Quislings at the National Rifle Amendment insist; and certainly not preserving the ability of states to maintain "select militias," as sundry dishonest collectivists maintain.


The Second Amendment made plain the Framers' understanding that citizens must protect their ability to kill government agents when such action is required to defend the innocent. They understood that free people have no duty to retreat when confronted with illicit armed violence from the State. And they inscribed that understanding in the Second Amendment.


I write those words as someone unalterably opposed to aggressive violence in any form. My soul rebels at the thought of taking another human life. I pray that God will preserve me from situations in which bloodshed is a possibility. And I likewise pray that if the defense of my family required it, God would grant me the clarity of purpose to kill those who threaten them quickly and efficiently.


The right to armed resistance against unlawful police power was widely recognized until at least the dawn of the 20th Century. In the 1900 case John Bad Elk v. United States, the Supreme Court recognized that the killing of a law enforcement officer who acts without a proper warrant can be justifiable homicide: If said officer is "killed in the course of [a] disorder which naturally accompanies an attempted arrest that is resisted, the law looks with very different eyes upon the transaction, when the officer had the right to make the arrest, from what it does if the officer had no such right. What might be murder in the first offense might be nothing more than manslaughter in the other, or the facts might show that no offense had been committed."


Florida Circuit Judge Rick de Furia recently ruled, in the case of John and Cynthia Coffin, that citizens have the right to resist unlawful violence committed by police officers -- in this case, the unwarranted invasion of the Coffins' home and the criminal assault on Cynthia. John, a heart patient in his mid-50s, did the right thing: He beat the invaders bloody, until forced to relent at gunpoint.


Under Black Elk -- and the "no duty to retreat" principle in Michigan and Louisiana state laws -- John would have been justified in shooting dead the armed invaders who had attacked his wife.


If this principle were widely recognized, Mississippi resident Cory Maye, a young father who shot an armed intruder who proved to be part of a police SWAT team conducting a no-knock raid on the wrong address -- would not have been convicted of capital murder.


But ours is a form of despotism under which the immunities enjoyed by the State's enforcers are so complete, and their very persons so sacred, that a police officer can arrest and charge with "assault on a government official" a sick man who coughs in his presence.

Police have a version of the "no duty to retreat" doctrine: They are empowered to use lethal force in circumstances in which neither they nor others are in mortal danger.

A very good example of that doctrine is displayed in this notorious car chase video:


Notice how the chase begins with the officer lying: The driver (who apparently stole the car) didn't try to "ram" the police vehicle, but appeared to avoid a collision.


Note as well the statement at 2:05 into the video: "Eighty-three, I'm going to take this guy out if I get a chance." In light of the lethal fusillade at the end of the chase, that statement strikes me as evidence of pre-meditated intent to kill the suspect.


The chase ended when the officer driving the first car rammed his vehicle into the allegedly stolen vehicle -- and then began firing into the suspect's car without warning. Another angle shows one of the three officers involved in the chase splayed T.J. Hooker-style on the hood of the car, firing multiple rounds into the suspect, 37-year-old Charles Wayne Bennett -- and then asking the passenger if the driver had a gun (see the clip below).

The passenger, a neighbor and casual acquaintance of Bennett, was an innocent bystander. He had no idea why Bennett fled from the police, and believes that it wasn't necessary to kill him:


According to police Captain James Schaffer, the shooting was justified because the car driven by Bennett "was being used as a weapon."


This may have been true. However, there were other options available to the officers apart from summarily executing Bennett, such as disabling the vehicle by shooting out its tires after Bennett was pinned in.


Perhaps the use of non-lethal force would be considered a "retreat" of sorts -- and the police don't have the duty to retreat. That being the case, law-abiding citizens should be protected in exercising lethal force in exactly the same fashion when confronted with the threat of illicit violence from police.


I'm old enough to remember a time when police would fire warning shots. Russian comedian Yakov Smirnoff (whose career was a casualty of the Cold War's end) once said that warning shots were America's most appealing trait: "In Russia, the police just shoot the guy and that's a warning to everybody else."

On the evidence of the video above, Yakov -- much to his dismay -- should feel right at home in Amerika, 2007.

Please visit The Right Source and the Liberty Minute archive.

Dum spiro, pugno!
 
Free advice. Worth exacly what you pay for it, but food for thought
in any case.

WHEN CONFRONTED BY AN ASSAILANT WHO THREATENS YOU OR YOURS WITH BODILY INJURY OR DEATH, IF THERE IS A POSSIBILITY
OF ESCAPING WITH YOUR ASS IN ONE PIECE, RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!

CASTLE DOCTRINE AND STAND AND FIGHT LAWS BE DAMNED! GET THE HELL OUT OF DODGE! RUN, RUN, RUN!

And keep running straight to the police station and file a report.

RATIONALE: If you shoot a ceeepizoid and he lives, it's his word against yours in court and you can bet your life he and his creepizoid friends are going to lie ther asses off. You could go to jail for attempted murder for defending yourself.

If he dies, his family, immediate and extended, are going to sue
you to death for wrongful death, excessive use of force, loss of consortium, loss of income, child support, mental trauma and other
off the wall shit that the legal industry hasn't coined terms for yet.
And they're going to do it over and over again.

So, if you're fabulously wealthy and have lots of free time to spend
in court, go ahead and shoot. Otherwise, run like a thief!

As I see it, the only time you should shoot is when a safe escape is unlikely or impossible. If the creepizoid is armed and close, shoot! If you are trapped with no viable means of escape, shoot. In all other
circumstances RUN!

Last word. Don't escalate a confrontational situation incrementally.

IF YOU MUST INTRODUCE A GUN INTO THE EQUATION, LET 'EM
SEE IT THROUGH THE SMOKE!

MAJOR D

P.S. Practicing just a little situational awareness will render this
subject hypothetical.
 
This is very sound advice.

There is an inherent logic issue with "Castle" laws and their "On the Street" spin-offs. By definition, these are adjuncts to an underlying right of self defense. However, a right of self defense does not arise until one is threatened with certain consequences (usually defined as death or serious bodily injury, and sometimes sexual assault is added). Now, say some dude pulls a knife on you demanding money, but you can parry his threat by simply stepping back and closing a door; in such a case, have you really been confronted with the prerequisite threat?

There is a saying in some quarters to the effect that the best answer in the world to a question isn't half as good as keeping the question from coming up in the first place.
 
sorry...

I have to say that if I or a loved one are treatened with serious harm or death, Im not going to take the time to weigh my options of if I can escape or will I be sued.

The very basic instinct of man is survival and to supress it is un natural and quite frankly, stupid.

I'm not going to wager how good a shot they other guy is or ask myself "can i disarm him".

If faced with a firearm, I will shoot and shoot to kill.

if faced with a knife, club, ax or whatever, when I pull my firearm, if the attacker is not running the other way and makes even the slightest agressive motion, I will shoot and shoot to kill.

f*** him and his pos family. I'd rather let a jury judge my actions then my family attend my funeral.
 
sorry...

I have to say that if I or a loved one are treatened with serious harm or death, Im not going to take the time to weigh my options of if I can escape or will I be sued.

The very basic instinct of man is survival and to supress it is un natural and quite frankly, stupid.

My opinion is that the the police officer ENDANGERED himself. He was rash and jumped into the foray instead of controlling it at the end. The comments made on the radio give an indication of the police out of control.

He did not have to leave the vicinity of the police cruiser UNTIL support had arrived. He jumped out of his car before help was there. He is supposed to be able to handle the situation. Instead it appears that his emotions were running. In fact I question getting out of the vehicle...his comments over the radio are very concerning.

Bill
 
Free advice. Worth exacly what you pay for it, but food for thought
in any case.

WHEN CONFRONTED BY AN ASSAILANT WHO THREATENS YOU OR YOURS WITH BODILY INJURY OR DEATH, IF THERE IS A POSSIBILITY
OF ESCAPING WITH YOUR ASS IN ONE PIECE, RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!

CASTLE DOCTRINE AND STAND AND FIGHT LAWS BE DAMNED! GET THE HELL OUT OF DODGE! RUN, RUN, RUN!

And keep running straight to the police station and file a report.

RATIONALE: If you shoot a ceeepizoid and he lives, it's his word against yours in court and you can bet your life he and his creepizoid friends are going to lie ther asses off. You could go to jail for attempted murder for defending yourself.

If he dies, his family, immediate and extended, are going to sue
you to death for wrongful death, excessive use of force, loss of consortium, loss of income, child support, mental trauma and other
off the wall shit that the legal industry hasn't coined terms for yet.
And they're going to do it over and over again.

...and let the bad guys make the "rules" of my life? Hell no. I'm going to live my life according to what I know is right or wrong.

Even more so then that, if I don't kill him when clearly I can, he is now free to do it again....

Could you live with yourself if that guy turned around and did it to somebody else, this time who didn't have the ability to defend themselves and this time with much worse results?

I couldn't.

If somebody tries to hurt me, one of us is not going to see the sun come up the next morning. <---note the period
 
Go for it guys!

Do a Charles Bronson on them! Dump your whole
basic load into the creeps!

I hope you're the last men standing. You're doing a
great public service.

Just remember, the legal system in this country has
been so twisted by the bleeding heart liberals that no
good deed will go unpunished.

After the glow of victory fades you're going to find
yourselves knee deep in legal shit no matter how righteous
the shoot was. You heard it here first.

Good luck and good hunting!

MAJOR D

P.S. If you carefully reread my original post, you'll see
I never said it was wrong to shoot someone threatening your
life. The point I was trying to make is that it is inadvisable
to do that if at all avoidable. That's all.

Sometimes desperate situatons call for drastic actions and
a man's got to do what a man's got to do. So exercise your
best judgement and do what needs to be done.

P.P.S. No insult taken, but I think you ought to apologize to
my mule.
 
Do all that you can to avoid trouble in the first place, but once you are targeted for attack unless I'm in my car and they're on foot, I'm not going to trust my track and field skills against somebody who's been living the hard life in the streets.

And while under attack I will NEVER leave my house. No matter how heavy the assault is, your house will be the MOST controlled environment you're gonna get. If there's 30 goblins in your home trying to do you harm, there might as well be a platoon of goblins with hard cover in the street/yard.

I plan to fortify my position, call 911 and be well prepared to stop anything that attempts to advance on my family.
 
Do all that you can to avoid trouble in the first place, but once you are targeted for attack unless I'm in my car and they're on foot, I'm not going to trust my track and field skills against somebody who's been living the hard life in the streets.

And while under attack I will NEVER leave my house. No matter how heavy the assault is, your house will be the MOST controlled environment you're gonna get. If there's 30 goblins in your home trying to do you harm, there might as well be a platoon of goblins with hard cover in the street/yard.

I plan to fortify my position, call 911 and be well prepared to stop anything that attempts to advance on my family.

+1

let me just say that I fully agree that if you can get out of a situation without firing a shot, great!!!

But I WILL NOT flee my home. And I will not run and hide if I can act and save my or someone elses life.
 
That goes without saying, practicing situational awareness is key, but when it's do or die I think the preferable option for those who aren't anti-violence is to do not die. [wink]

No argument, certainly not from me.

But the dichotomy of this thread involves whether to take an avoidance option, if available, when confronted by a threat on the street, even if local law enables (but does not require) one to "stand his ground."
 
No argument, certainly not from me.

But the dichotomy of this thread involves whether to take an avoidance option, if available, when confronted by a threat on the street, even if local law enables (but does not require) one to "stand his ground."

I think the wrong question is being asked. I think we all agree we should always be aware of danger and take steps to avoid it, but when it comes down to actully being activly confronted, is escape even a good option?

Can you outrun your attacker? (Note you will likely have never met them before, or have seen them run) will you be able to find a police officer, a hiding place, or be able to outrun them untill they break chase? Do you really want to be turning your back on a known threat? One of the first rules of fire fighting is never turn your back on a fire, even one you think is out. Why would an attacker be any different?

Also do you take into account who's with you? I know my wife can't run faster than me. Most young kids can't run as fast as a full-grown adult. If you're carrying a 40 lb child you can prettymuch rule a foot race out. The child gets scared and starts to cry, you can rule out hiding.

Running away might work, but chances are its sucess is usally confined to the movies.

Running once you've become prey to a two-legged predator doesn't sound smart to me at ALL!
 
I think the wrong question is being asked. I think we all agree we should always be aware of danger and take steps to avoid it, but when it comes down to actully being activly confronted, is escape even a good option?

Can you outrun your attacker? (Note you will likely have never met them before, or have seen them run) will you be able to find a police officer, a hiding place, or be able to outrun them untill they break chase? Do you really want to be turning your back on a known threat? One of the first rules of fire fighting is never turn your back on a fire, even one you think is out. Why would an attacker be any different?

Also do you take into account who's with you? I know my wife can't run faster than me. Most young kids can't run as fast as a full-grown adult. If you're carrying a 40 lb child you can prettymuch rule a foot race out. The child gets scared and starts to cry, you can rule out hiding.

Running away might work, but chances are its sucess is usally confined to the movies.

Running once you've become prey to a two-legged predator doesn't sound smart to me at ALL!


I don't disagree with a thing you've said, all of which question in various scenarios whether an effective avoidance option is available. If it isn't, or more accurately in the real world, if one isn't clearly available, then defend.

But as I understood some of the responses to Major D's original response, they were to the effect that, if permitted by a "stand your ground" statute, some folks would elect to stay and fight and eschew a stipulated effective avoidance alternative, and my belief is that doing that is not prudent.
 
Tis better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6.

While that's a great catch phrase that many like to use, until you have had the pleasure of standing before those twelve that have your economic future and possibly freedom in their hands, don't be too quick to make a judgment.

When there is no other choice, the decision is made for you. If you can safely get the hell out, then that might be the best course of action.

"Eighty-three, I'm going to take this guy out if I get a chance."
Of course if could not have meant he was going to use the a Pittman Maneuver. Add to that "shooting out the tires" which is pretty much a violation of every states Use of Deadly Force" and pursuit policies. Watch Cops doesn't always make one an expert on police procedures.
 
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